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Wormholes

 
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Black Hole Systems

First post First post First post
Author
Cade Windstalker
#21 - 2013-08-08 12:45:27 UTC
Quote:
A sufficiently compact mass will deform spacetime to form a black hole, a region of spacetime from which nothing, not even light, can escape. Around a black hole there is a surface called an event horizon that marks the point of no return.
Black Hole Class 1 Class 2 Class 3 Class 4 Class 5 Class 6
Inertia Multiplier 1.25 1.44 1.55 1.68 1.85 2.00
Max Range Multiplier 0.90 0.81 0.73 0.66 0.59 0.50
Falloff Modifier 0.90 0.81 0.73 0.66 0.59 0.50
Missile Velocity Multiplier 0.90 0.81 0.73 0.66 0.59 0.50
Maximum velocity multiplier 1.25 1.44 1.55 1.68 1.85 2.00
Control range multiplier 0.90 0.81 0.73 0.66 0.59 0.50


So, from the look of things the original intent was to support MWD/AB PvP at basically knife range, except that's not exactly uncommon anyway and the speed change actually throws a lot of things out of whack as far as speed tanking goes. It's fun to like, zoom around in a cov-ops your first trip into one but I can't imagine living in one.

I do like the theme though but the other sites have much more direct buffs to certain styles of play. Some more than others, certainly, but the black hole is more of a fun toy than somewhere you would want to live because of how it functions.



How about the following:

I'm going for a theme around missile based bonuses. They tend to not get a lot of love in PvP or elsewhere and I think it would be cool to have a wormhole where the Phoenix really shines as a dread of choice.

Missile velocity increase: Not too much, say 5% or even 2.5% per class level but enough to make the Tengu and other missile boats have some really scary damage projection. Right now I don't feel the current decrease adds much beyond a "no HAM Legion fleets here" sign and some annoyance. Besides it conflicts rather annoyingly with the velocity bonus to everything else.

Explosion Radius: Decreased by up to 50%. Potential problems with dread-blap but possibly mitigated by the missile travel time, giving enemies in PvP the chance to react to the incoming missiles and overheat hardeners and mitigate damage.

Tracking: Minus 5% per level. This basically says if you're bringing gun-boats into this hole you'd better not rely on tracking or bring tons of webs. Moros, go home you're drunk.

Falloff: I'm somewhat partial to the falloff penalty but that might be too much of a hit to Arties which would, at this point, be the least affected turret system. The idea here is that space is a little distorted so your guns are pretty hit or miss.

Warp Velocity: This is more of a "just for fun" thing that may end up having interesting consequences. Lets let warp zip you around up to 50% faster. Maybe this will let your bomber beat that Noctis back to the exit hole, maybe not.

Velocity Bonus: After some mulling I think I'd leave this but at max 50% effectiveness. Yes, it hurts missile damage but in PvE you can web everything down anyway and the explosion radius boost helps mitigate it, especially with larger missiles. It supports a kiting setup which range boosted missiles would be absolutely scary in or short range brawls with heavy use of Webs.



Overall I think this would help give Black Holes a unique play style, similar to the other wormholes and allow owners of a Black Hole to make use of some less utilized ships in defense of their home (and for making tons of ISK).
Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-08-08 12:49:40 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Quote:
A sufficiently compact mass will deform spacetime to form a black hole, a region of spacetime from which nothing, not even light, can escape. Around a black hole there is a surface called an event horizon that marks the point of no return.
Black Hole Class 1 Class 2 Class 3 Class 4 Class 5 Class 6
Inertia Multiplier 1.25 1.44 1.55 1.68 1.85 2.00
Max Range Multiplier 0.90 0.81 0.73 0.66 0.59 0.50
Falloff Modifier 0.90 0.81 0.73 0.66 0.59 0.50
Missile Velocity Multiplier 0.90 0.81 0.73 0.66 0.59 0.50
Maximum velocity multiplier 1.25 1.44 1.55 1.68 1.85 2.00
Control range multiplier 0.90 0.81 0.73 0.66 0.59 0.50


So, from the look of things the original intent was to support MWD/AB PvP at basically knife range, except that's not exactly uncommon anyway and the speed change actually throws a lot of things out of whack as far as speed tanking goes. It's fun to like, zoom around in a cov-ops your first trip into one but I can't imagine living in one.

I do like the theme though but the other sites have much more direct buffs to certain styles of play. Some more than others, certainly, but the black hole is more of a fun toy than somewhere you would want to live because of how it functions.



How about the following:

I'm going for a theme around missile based bonuses. They tend to not get a lot of love in PvP or elsewhere and I think it would be cool to have a wormhole where the Phoenix really shines as a dread of choice.

Missile velocity increase: Not too much, say 5% or even 2.5% per class level but enough to make the Tengu and other missile boats have some really scary damage projection. Right now I don't feel the current decrease adds much beyond a "no HAM Legion fleets here" sign and some annoyance. Besides it conflicts rather annoyingly with the velocity bonus to everything else.

Explosion Radius: Decreased by up to 50%. Potential problems with dread-blap but possibly mitigated by the missile travel time, giving enemies in PvP the chance to react to the incoming missiles and overheat hardeners and mitigate damage.

Tracking: Minus 5% per level. This basically says if you're bringing gun-boats into this hole you'd better not rely on tracking or bring tons of webs. Moros, go home you're drunk.

Falloff: I'm somewhat partial to the falloff penalty but that might be too much of a hit to Arties which would, at this point, be the least affected turret system. The idea here is that space is a little distorted so your guns are pretty hit or miss.

Warp Velocity: This is more of a "just for fun" thing that may end up having interesting consequences. Lets let warp zip you around up to 50% faster. Maybe this will let your bomber beat that Noctis back to the exit hole, maybe not.

Velocity Bonus: After some mulling I think I'd leave this but at max 50% effectiveness. Yes, it hurts missile damage but in PvE you can web everything down anyway and the explosion radius boost helps mitigate it, especially with larger missiles. It supports a kiting setup which range boosted missiles would be absolutely scary in or short range brawls with heavy use of Webs.



Overall I think this would help give Black Holes a unique play style, similar to the other wormholes and allow owners of a Black Hole to make use of some less utilized ships in defense of their home (and for making tons of ISK).


I need more posts like this one :)

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me

Dgram Loop
Dutch Squad
#23 - 2013-08-08 12:50:22 UTC
Armor Resist: -100%
Shield Resist: -100%
Hull Resist: +100%
Hull HP + 50%
(And possibly) X-Large Weapon Damage: -100% or -500% even
This example is for a C6, percentages should be lowered for lower classes of course.

Then all we need are t1/t2 cruisers and a carrier with remote hull repairer bonuses ;)
Bern Rath
Sanctum Void
#24 - 2013-08-08 13:14:04 UTC
These may make for interesting conditions. The aim being to support ranged/kiting encounters and less in your face close range brawling.

Ship velocity +25%, +44%, +55%, +68%, +85%, +100%

Bomb velocity +25%, +44%, +55%, +68%, +85%, +100%

Missile velocity +5%, +10%, +15%, +20%, +25%

Energy Destabilization/Leech Effects -10%, -19%, -27%, -41%, -50%

Capacitor recharge -10%, -19%, -27%, -41%, -50%

ECM Strength -10%, -19%, -27%, -41%, -50%
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2013-08-08 13:28:17 UTC
Keep the current negative effects but make all Black Holes spawn additional static (either of the same type as the system already has, random class, same class as is the system or whatever).
Benefits would be:
a) more connections in wspace, higher chance to run into someone
b) ppl could make a choice between living under beneficial system effect (pulsar, WR, etc.) or live with **** effect but having the benefit and opportunity of having access to more systems and more content (pvp, pve or logistics).

And after all, it might even make some kind of scifi logic that black hole will attract more wormholes.
Cipreh
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-08-08 13:44:08 UTC
Drop the bonuses/penalties, and make them more unique.

I feel that black holes should be made to reflect CCP's original goals for w-space, uninhabitable wild space, with increased risk, and increased rewards.

No moons. Uninhabitable for any extended length of time.
More or better sites. (Someone mentioned ice in w-space?)
Multiple (2+) Statics or increased chance of K162. (Maybe shorter timers on the statics?)
=================================================

I have a much longer post about this, but I am at work at the moment and will finish it when I get home. Consider this space reserved.

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stup idity
#27 - 2013-08-08 14:26:42 UTC  |  Edited by: stup idity
I like the dual static idea from above very much.

Regarding effects:

proposal 1 - use what's already there and turn it around:
- more lock range
- faster missiles
- more drone range
- more fall-off
- less speed

proposal 2 - move bonuses out of combat focus:
- bonus to gas harvesting
- bonus to mining
- bonus to ore compression
- more/other industry bonuses

proposal 3 - more war, less e-war:
- bonus to sensor strength
- bonus to scan resolution
- bonus to warp bubbles
- reduce efficieny of various e-war effects (painter, web, dampener, ecm)

How about messing with:
- cloaking
- scanning/d-scan
- ship mass
- spawn rate of sites
?

edit:

one more:
- bonus to scanning
- increase number of w-space connections
- increase number of connections to other w-space systems that already have a connection to a black hole system significantly

I am the Herald of all beings that are me.

Elfred Gam'Havoc
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-08-08 14:40:37 UTC
While I haven't spent much time in W-space other than exploring my way through it to other parts of K-space...

Making Black Holes unique and more in line with the unknown could be really interesting.

I think mass penalties are obvious - what about drag towards the BH? Velocity bonus towards the center of the system, penalty heading out? Missiles getting bonuses vs non-self propelled weapons is also a good idea. Tracking with gravity bending trajectories should be incredibly bad! Light & medium drones get bonused for same reason, heavies and sentries penalized for their mass and inability to move quickly.

No planets, no moons, as they've already been dragged into oblivion. Maybe extra mining opportunities, belts & ice, as they've been pulled in system. Comet mining? Cracked/pulverized planetoids?

Extra connections makes sense, after all the immense gravity should have something to do with the time/space function of Wormholes.

I also like the idea of some sort of time dilation!
Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-08-08 14:53:45 UTC
Elfred Gam'Havoc wrote:
While I haven't spent much time in W-space other than exploring my way through it to other parts of K-space...

Making Black Holes unique and more in line with the unknown could be really interesting.

I think mass penalties are obvious - what about drag towards the BH? Velocity bonus towards the center of the system, penalty heading out? Missiles getting bonuses vs non-self propelled weapons is also a good idea. Tracking with gravity bending trajectories should be incredibly bad! Light & medium drones get bonused for same reason, heavies and sentries penalized for their mass and inability to move quickly.

No planets, no moons, as they've already been dragged into oblivion. Maybe extra mining opportunities, belts & ice, as they've been pulled in system. Comet mining? Cracked/pulverized planetoids?

Extra connections makes sense, after all the immense gravity should have something to do with the time/space function of Wormholes.

I also like the idea of some sort of time dilation!


The effects have to be easy to understand and not require much dev time. Removing moons or adding drag might be a bit complicated.

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me

Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-08-08 14:58:20 UTC
Quote:
proposal 2 - move bonuses out of combat focus:
- bonus to gas harvesting
- bonus to mining
- bonus to ore compression
- more/other industry bonuses


I do like this one as it would boost miner corps a bit considering grav site -> anomaly nerf.

Keep those suggestions coming though. The more the better.

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me

Elfred Gam'Havoc
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-08-08 15:05:22 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:


The effects have to be easy to understand and not require much dev time. Removing moons or adding drag might be a bit complicated.


Replace planets/moons with mining anom sites, rename them "Shattered World"?

I understand that a physics engine change would not be a "small thing", but I think it would be cool none the less. If it was feasable... have ships exert their own gravity too... think you're going to burn away from that Capital so easily? NOPE!

I digress.

TiDi with industry bonuses could make for some (dare I say) enjoyable mining content.
James Solo
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#32 - 2013-08-08 15:38:50 UTC  |  Edited by: James Solo
Combining suggestions I like most in this thread with a few of my own:
Wipe current bonuses.


  • Add a Dual static
  • This alone will make it extremely valuable for pvp corps. Because of this value, pve should be harder, not easier in higher class wormholes.
  • Local rep bonus (shield and armor)
  • Allows lower class black holes to be viable for smaller pvp corps and PVE becomes easier for them as well. Barrier to entry is low because tanking alone becomes easier.
  • Proportional remote rep nerf
  • Makes it a lot harder to run the higher class sites, still viable however(people always find a way)
  • 100% bonus to large hybrid, laser, and projectile turret damage, 100% to torpedo and cruise missile damage in a c6, scaled down accordingly for lower classes.
  • This way there is more room for playing with mass, teir3 battlecruisers can use the large guns in a c1 without having to build the battleship there. This will have interesting effects on stealth bomber damage as well.
  • 75% less effectiveness of webs and target painters in a c6.
  • This has the dual purpose of making dread blapping hard, but making sites still doable. You just have to use more webs or figure out other ways of killing sleepers. Also scaled down for lower classes.
  • Proportional bonus to range of webs, scram/point, and target painters


If a dual static cannot be done in a c5/c6 with the current programming, would it be possible to allow the ihub upgrade "Quantum Flux Generator" effects to the system by default? Essentially making them just very busy wormholes.
Ghenghis Kralj
Big Johnson's
#33 - 2013-08-08 15:50:14 UTC
I agree with some of the others. Lower level black holes are not as bad as they are made out to be and can be quite livable. The problem is that the other wh effects are quite positive for pve, pvp, and daily living activities. Black holes are acceptable for pve and pvp in lower class wormholes, but make daily living activities more of a headache and risk. There is no advantage in higher class wormholes for pve or pvp. It just gets frustrating. Good luck getting drones back in your bay. Given that you can get empty wormholes, it's more that the competitive advantage of black holes is lacking relative to everything else. And for some, the warp time risk is not acceptable.

The main reason that I won't live in the a black whole is that EVE is a game of logic, and black wholes are illogical. My ship travelers faster, but my missiles slower?! What kind of loopey physics are those? In that case, might as well screw with ship mass. Buzzard weighs like a billion kg and a Moros 10 kg.

I think there are two solutions:
1. Change the basic effects offered by black wholes to something others have suggested: Missle damage bonus, explosion radius, indy (although not necessary imo), etc.

2. Make living easier and decrease the negative effects on inertia and missile velocity.
Cosmic Scanner
Overload This
#34 - 2013-08-08 16:19:04 UTC
Black holes:
* Missile Love - aka missile equivalent of magnetar. OR
* Unique uninhabitable luxury system with lots of statics and high probability of inbound wormholes.

All Wormholes:
* Dual Statics
* More "Roaming" / "Wondering" wormholes (Especially for C4 to K-Space)

All this would mean more interaction between players in w-space. More PVP, less farming security, epic chains, the list goes on...

Cosmic Scanner / muu lufragga

sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#35 - 2013-08-08 16:51:44 UTC
instead of tracking nerf , a reduction/boost to gun resolution? :P

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!

Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#36 - 2013-08-08 17:43:50 UTC
Archdaimon wrote:
How bout making black holes _the_ place for small ships to fight.

That is give bonuses and penalties compared to size of ship. Hence huge tracking penalties to caps, less to bs etc., but almost none to frigs (maybe even bonus?)

This would make c5/6 systems where _not_ cap pilots could live and fights with out fearing the blob-blap-dreads.


I am starting to really like this idea.
Proclus Diadochu
Mar Sarrim
Red Coat Conspiracy
#37 - 2013-08-08 17:55:57 UTC
Personally liked the changing wormhole effects for Blackholes (downtime to downtime).

Blackholes can be a unique anomoly where CCP could write up something to pull random effects of the other wormholes, plus maybe add a couple more uniques, so it would always be interesting to see what perks and drawbacks you would have in the hole. It could be fun.

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CeNSeR
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-08-08 17:59:15 UTC  |  Edited by: CeNSeR
Ideal opportunity for CCP to have a little play.

Duel statics but change the rule e.g C2's where there is a W -space and a K - space static.

Null and a Highsec static would prove to be a major "conflict driver"

Cade Windstalkers input i thought was great, having a wormhole where underused ships like the Phoenix and the ham Legion could be a viable option would be cool.
James Solo
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#39 - 2013-08-08 18:07:26 UTC
Godfrey Silvarna wrote:
Archdaimon wrote:
How bout making black holes _the_ place for small ships to fight.

That is give bonuses and penalties compared to size of ship. Hence huge tracking penalties to caps, less to bs etc., but almost none to frigs (maybe even bonus?)

This would make c5/6 systems where _not_ cap pilots could live and fights with out fearing the blob-blap-dreads.


I am starting to really like this idea.



I like this as well, but its important that whatever changes be made be balanced with future changes to the way dread guns track smaller ships anyway. Dreads still need to be usable for reinforcing towers and shooting carriers and other dreads, otherwise the effect just makes it so "most carriers + t3's" wins since it takes an enormous amount of t3 dps to take down RR'ing carriers, especially if they're orbiting your dreads with 100mn AB's going or something silly and you cant track them. I still think limiting EWAR is the way to go so that orbiting t3's and gardians are very hard to hit with dreads, but carriers, since they're already very slow anyway are still easy targets. Webs and paints are what makes dread blapping viable in the first place.
StarFleetCommander
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#40 - 2013-08-08 18:10:00 UTC  |  Edited by: StarFleetCommander
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Adding a blue tag to this thread.

Help the CSM help CCP help you.



CCP Fozzie in the Wormhole section

Something must be up Shocked


I think all wormholes should have dual statics