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The best dps ship for HQ incursions
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Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#21 - 2013-08-07 17:19:40 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Cpt Tirel wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Machariel have single function in inc's alpha.

NM is used for high tracking tachyon platform.

Drones are useless due to fleet movement(sentry) and travel times(heavy's).

So that part of your ship will only be used when shooting tower.


Alpha is only useful when contesting which is rare, and if a mach misses it ends up spending half a minute before it becomes useful because of the slow reload. In addition you have overshooting, long reload times.

Pulses track just fine, i still dont see a point in using beams over them.

I fly a Navy Geddon, and i never use the vindi anchor, that allows me to make very good use of my sentries. I MWD to my position, launch drones and keep them out most of the time.


Artillery weapons have high alpha by design side effect if it are capability to do massive dmg mid range, and with proper fit and fleet support they rarely miss 10 of those ships will remove instantly few ships of the field completely bypassing any tracking/transversal etc.and that happens every 14 sec.that being good for contest is side bonus what it rly does 8s removal of incoming dps asap= faster sites.

Tachyon NM is dps monster with split second select able range and hefty alpha to top it of mimicking in a way alpha doctrine further .

And Vindi with its 2600 theoretycal dps full set of sentrys and 90% webs is non replecable by any ship that exist in eve.

All of those ships do what pulse or any other fit geddon cant do alpha/range/dps.


I dont buy the alpha argument, Alpha is a PVP thing that is mistakenly dragged into PVE. Contests are a rarity that can be ignored.

Beam NM is a better PVE sniper than Arty Mach yea, but its still a sniper.

Vindi is a useful ship in incursions, and i never said Navy Geddons could replace them. This is about Pulse Navy Geddons vs NM's and Machs.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#22 - 2013-08-07 18:22:59 UTC
First proper fleet does not have snipers it have long range ships you don't fly mach with tremor nor NM to use aurora you fly them because they can deliver proper dmg to that range when/if needed.

Another thing you use freely is alpha and what eft and theory crafting will not tell you is what does that translate in to...

Most powerful gun in eve on line is Artillery cannon it deliver most DMG than any other weapon system it is that powerful that ccp slap 15sec rof on it just to keep it in check with rest of them.

That kind of dmg is instant to you want it u press button and you get it it is there.

Now what is confusing you is DPS damage per second it is dmg over time so this is two part deal it need dmg and it need time to deliver it...

now dmg on pulses and short range guns is nothing less than pathetic so much so that they need massive rof built in guns alone to achieve anything and you still need time when you press button nothing rly happens tiny red line appears on enemy ship shields.and there is range issue if you are using scorch you DMG and dps are taking a dive while artys and tachs not that much they are built to operate in ranges your geddon need to us3 scorch.

now in non contest situation alpha strikes will simply do in instant what you need time to do making other ships focus on something else making overall completion time faster...

In contest situation fleet with alpha ships will simply deny you time you need to make that dps number come on top.it is simple rly you and your buddies are like working hard to brake sansha BS and single mach fire and take armour and hull to him self taking dmg point to his team.

add ranges speed tranversals pilot skills and plethora of other stats and it become apparent why mix fleet deliver better results.

If you are using scorch at all you are already loosing if you want to win 1400mm take no substitute.

I guess what I am saying here is dps damage per time in not the only metrics you should rely on and my mach can do 1000dps with guns alone and deliver over 16000 or so alpha don't ignore that stats.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#23 - 2013-08-07 23:23:27 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:

Now what is confusing you


I suggest you re-read the thread, if it does not help you should leave it at that.
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#24 - 2013-08-08 01:11:21 UTC
[quote=Cpt Tirel

I dont buy the alpha argument, Alpha is a PVP thing that is mistakenly dragged into PVE. Contests are a rarity that can be ignored.

[/quote]

You wrong here. Take a HAM tengu to pve and it has round 900 dps with round 1k volley(alpha) and compare that to a Raven which has less dps and 4 times more alpha, I am sure my numbers are slightly off as they are from memory. You will very quickly see the Raven out perform the Tengu against BC's and above. Volley (alpha) gets the ships of the field quicker regardless PVE or PVP and is not something you can ignore when you in a fleet that is built to "just" survive. Take too long and that fleet is dead.. PVE or PVP.
roflcopt3r
Bloodshot Eyes
#25 - 2013-08-08 08:59:25 UTC
DPS is the damage that is applied over time. Alpha is instantly applied when the f-key is pressed. You do not apply damage over time to a target that is alphaed off the field near instantly when it is called primary. Considering that a viable and competent hq fleet will consist of both dps and alpha ships. Sites are not drawn out affairs where dps can be applied over a long amount of time. Nahmean nahmsayin?
Darling Hassasin
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#26 - 2013-08-08 10:31:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Darling Hassasin
Cage Man wrote:
[quote=Cpt Tirel

I dont buy the alpha argument, Alpha is a PVP thing that is mistakenly dragged into PVE. Contests are a rarity that can be ignored.



You wrong here. Take a HAM tengu to pve and it has round 900 dps with round 1k volley(alpha) and compare that to a Raven which has less dps and 4 times more alpha, I am sure my numbers are slightly off as they are from memory. You will very quickly see the Raven out perform the Tengu against BC's and above. Volley (alpha) gets the ships of the field quicker regardless PVE or PVP and is not something you can ignore when you in a fleet that is built to "just" survive. Take too long and that fleet is dead.. PVE or PVP. [/quote]

Ummm Wrong mr. Cage Man...

This is the usual useless lame post haxsplaining how alpha feels as opposed to dps. Its utter bullcrap. Alpha for pve means nothing (Good) at all and it often leads to much wasted damage. DPS is the only concern here.

There are no pve targets that tank so good actively and have so little overall EHP that a vessel can alpha them when a comparable class dps fit vessel would fail to break their tank.

As for the funny Raven and Tengu (pulled out of his arse) comparison... Tengus have less dps than Ravens with comparable fittings and thus are outperformed (slightly) in pve environments where targets are mostly BC and BS sized or closer to the Ravens drones where smaller... The higher alpha of the Raven is a drawback actually but only a small one so it can be ignored.

If clueless do not post.
Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#27 - 2013-08-08 10:49:24 UTC
Cage Man wrote:
You will very quickly see the Raven out perform the Tengu


This is not true, and has nothing to do with alpha.

Ok lets see.. Volley damage advangates PVP:

High damage instantly, good because it prevents shield boosting/armor repping if you can oneshot them.
Good for gatecamping combined with good sensor-strength to kill ships before they can warp off even if outside of point range.

Volley damage advantages over fast-cycle weapons for PVE:

NONE

Even if one NPC, or two, or three, gets taken out almost instantly, if it was several ships doing just that there is a guarantee that some of their damage was wasted because of overshooting. And those ships would have been taken out anyway before the Machs are done cyceling their slow weapons.

Example on overshooting. Sansha cruiser is low on HP say 1/3. Three Machs shoot it, the two first ones hit doing full damage, now the sansha cruiser has 1 hp left. Which the last one takes out with its volley of 15k. Now it just wasted 14.999 damage taking out something that had 1 hp and has to wait for 15 seconds to cycle its guns. This would be of less concern in PVP but in PVE it is called inefficiency.

Slow artillery cycles also means that if you miss, your overall DPS/damage drops drastically, because you put much more of your overall DPS into each shot. The Machariel has no tracking bonus like the NM does, and Tachyons has higher base tracking than 1400's.

Summary of this: beam NM is a better PVE sniper than artillery Machariel. And Navy geddon still has more to offer in HQ sites than both of them.
Commander Ash McCloud
The New Eden People's Front
#28 - 2013-08-08 10:59:08 UTC
What we need is a damage meter for proper comparison! Roll
Darling Hassasin
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#29 - 2013-08-08 11:06:25 UTC
If you use painters in them Incursions (I wouldnt know I dont do highsec) TFI might be a better option than any other vessel, as long as you can use sentries...
Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#30 - 2013-08-08 11:20:38 UTC
Commander Ash McCloud wrote:
What we need is a damage meter for proper comparison! Roll


IndeedP
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#31 - 2013-08-08 12:54:31 UTC
While there are advantages to Volley in PvE (much the same advantages as for PvP in fact) lets ignore the comparrison between the Pulse fit Navy 'geddon and the Machariel...

The most important question is what does the Pulse Navy 'geddon do better than a Pulse NM?
For that matter, if you were to refit the Navy 'geddon with Tachs would you outperform the NMs? The Nightmare's role, at least in the minds of the majority of FCs, is sniper DPS. For that role the preference is Tachs because the targets assigned to the snipers are often outside effective range for Pulse.

Compared on this level, the Navy 'geddon comes out rather behind. The NM has more effective turrets, better tracking, a more formidable shield tank (particularly useful in high influence sites), can support other members of the fleet and burns through Gleam L more slowly for the TPPHs.

If the meta put Pulses to the fore rather than Tachs then the NM would have more effective turrets, better tracking, a more formidable shield tank, the ability to support its compatriots and would burn through Scorch and Conflag more slowly.

So the next question is why aren't Pulse fits more heavily used? Pulse NMs and AC Machs could both yield quite substantial DPS improvements over their, more conventional, siblings... But that gain is at the cost of range (despite claims that it's unimportant) - and if the ship cannot perform the role of the sniper (the Arty Mach or NM) then the role it's trying to perform is that of the Vindicators.

So what does the Pulse Navy 'geddon do better than a Vindicator?..


Perhaps more importantly, why did you look at the Vindicator and the NM fits the Incursion communities publish and decide that the Navy 'geddon was a better option?
Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#32 - 2013-08-08 14:10:15 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:
While there are advantages to Volley in PvE (much the same advantages as for PvP in fact) lets ignore the comparrison between the Pulse fit Navy 'geddon and the Machariel...

Please tell me of these advantages.

Quote:

The most important question is what does the Pulse Navy 'geddon do better than a Pulse NM?
For that matter, if you were to refit the Navy 'geddon with Tachs would you outperform the NMs? The Nightmare's role, at least in the minds of the majority of FCs, is sniper DPS. For that role the preference is Tachs because the targets assigned to the snipers are often outside effective range for Pulse.

Compared on this level, the Navy 'geddon comes out rather behind. The NM has more effective turrets, better tracking, a more formidable shield tank (particularly useful in high influence sites), can support other members of the fleet and burns through Gleam L more slowly for the TPPHs.

If the meta put Pulses to the fore rather than Tachs then the NM would have more effective turrets, better tracking, a more formidable shield tank, the ability to support its compatriots and would burn through Scorch and Conflag more slowly.


The substantial advantage the Navy Geddon has to the NM aswell as the Mach is the abilty to use five sentry drones. You must have missed that part while reading my other posts in this thread.
The tracking bonus of the NM is nice, but it is not really an advantage in HQ's since most targets are battleships, webbed cruisers, Sansha towers or sniper targets that pulses with their decent base tracking hit just fine with scorch because of low transversal.
Tank is irellevant, the tank on the Navy Geddon is more than adequate of HQ's as i allready explained.

Quote:

So the next question is why aren't Pulse fits more heavily used? Pulse NMs and AC Machs could both yield quite substantial DPS improvements over their, more conventional, siblings... But that gain is at the cost of range (despite claims that it's unimportant) - and if the ship cannot perform the role of the sniper (the Arty Mach or NM) then the role it's trying to perform is that of the Vindicators.


As i allready explained, yes, the average long range dps of the fleet would drop around 2k by having pulse Navy Geddons instead of arty Machs and beam NM's. But when you look at the huge increase in close range dps, that i also explained, it is worth it. AC Machs can only field 4 sentries, and fighting in falloff would be less effetive than pulses are.

Quote:

So what does the Pulse Navy 'geddon do better than a Vindicator?..


Apply dps better at ranges 20-70km.
More effective use of sentries because of this, because it does not have to move around so much.

Quote:

Perhaps more importantly, why did you look at the Vindicator and the NM fits the Incursion communities publish and decide that the Navy 'geddon was a better option?

I didnt, this is not solely based on fits at all. I would rather say it is based on what i observed while running HQ sites.
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#33 - 2013-08-08 20:13:04 UTC
Darling Hassasin wrote:
Cage Man wrote:
[quote=Cpt Tirel

I dont buy the alpha argument, Alpha is a PVP thing that is mistakenly dragged into PVE. Contests are a rarity that can be ignored.



You wrong here. Take a HAM tengu to pve and it has round 900 dps with round 1k volley(alpha) and compare that to a Raven which has less dps and 4 times more alpha, I am sure my numbers are slightly off as they are from memory. You will very quickly see the Raven out perform the Tengu against BC's and above. Volley (alpha) gets the ships of the field quicker regardless PVE or PVP and is not something you can ignore when you in a fleet that is built to "just" survive. Take too long and that fleet is dead.. PVE or PVP.


Ummm Wrong mr. Cage Man...

This is the usual useless lame post haxsplaining how alpha feels as opposed to dps. Its utter bullcrap. Alpha for pve means nothing (Good) at all and it often leads to much wasted damage. DPS is the only concern here.

There are no pve targets that tank so good actively and have so little overall EHP that a vessel can alpha them when a comparable class dps fit vessel would fail to break their tank.

As for the funny Raven and Tengu (pulled out of his arse) comparison... Tengus have less dps than Ravens with comparable fittings and thus are outperformed (slightly) in pve environments where targets are mostly BC and BS sized or closer to the Ravens drones where smaller... The higher alpha of the Raven is a drawback actually but only a small one so it can be ignored.

If clueless do not post.[/quote]

So why not correct the numbers I pulled from my arse?? If anyone is killing BC and BS rats faster in a HAM tengu than a raven, then I would really like to see those fits.
But yea its pretty easy to make a forum alt and troll and say you know what you doing and no one else does Roll
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#34 - 2013-08-08 20:45:39 UTC
You do know that some mission NPCs has % chance of repping, and being able to alpha through the tank down into armor/hull that they won't rep is at times more useful as they will barely keep their tank alive against continued dps. This has more to do with firing all weapons at the same time though, but it will at times make a difference if you fire them at intervals or all together.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#35 - 2013-08-09 00:57:42 UTC
Kosetzu wrote:
You do know that some mission NPCs has % chance of repping, and being able to alpha through the tank down into armor/hull that they won't rep is at times more useful as they will barely keep their tank alive against continued dps. This has more to do with firing all weapons at the same time though, but it will at times make a difference if you fire them at intervals or all together.

Incursion sansha do rep themselves, but it's not nearly enough to matter when you have an entire fleet focusing on one ship at a time.

Overall, the nightmare has the best damage application. People tend to fit tachs on them because you don't lose a whole lot of dps compared to pulses, but you gain a ton of range.

The vindi has the highest paper dps, and in a lot of cases it can MWD on top of things, pin them down, and hammer their faces in, but not always. There are times where you'll find yourself switching to null and probably doing less dps than an AC mach.

The mach is decent at midrange with ACs, but tbh artillery doesn't hold up as good as people give it credit for. It is literally the lowest dps AND shortest-ranged battleship-sized weapon. At sniper ranges it's doing good to stay on par with a T1-hulled railgun ship.

Past those three, the CNR and golem do a lot of dps in torp fit, the various gun marauders are squishy but functional, and the navy battleships are tanky enough but lacking the dps of the pirate versions...with the exception of the typhoon fleet issue, which does a frackton of dps if you spend the thirty years needed to skill into the thing.

thhief ghabmoef
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#36 - 2013-08-09 13:06:52 UTC
Cpt Tirel wrote:

The substantial advantage the Navy Geddon has to the NM aswell as the Mach is the abilty to use five sentry drones. You must have missed that part while reading my other posts in this thread.
The tracking bonus of the NM is nice, but it is not really an advantage in HQ's since most targets are battleships, webbed cruisers, Sansha towers or sniper targets that pulses with their decent base tracking hit just fine with scorch because of low transversal.
Tank is irellevant, the tank on the Navy Geddon is more than adequate of HQ's as i allready explained.

Quote:

As i allready explained, yes, the average long range dps of the fleet would drop around 2k by having pulse Navy Geddons instead of arty Machs and beam NM's. But when you look at the huge increase in close range dps, that i also explained, it is worth it. AC Machs can only field 4 sentries, and fighting in falloff would be less effetive than pulses are.


Quote:

Quote:

So what does the Pulse Navy 'geddon do better than a Vindicator?..


Apply dps better at ranges 20-70km.
More effective use of sentries because of this, because it does not have to move around so much.


The fact that it can carry a full flight of sentries is not an advantage, not in the context we're discussing.
If the Navy'geddon is going to reach 60km with Scorch you're going to be fitting three Republic Fleet TEs and to get the damage you'll have 4 HS (optimal would be 3 IN and one T2) which, with a Damage Control, fills your lows. Two Pith Invulns, an Extender and MWD fill your mids.
Therefore your drones are unmodified and are doing about 300DPS up to a range of 30km.
Your INMF range is about 20km so by the time you're outside the Vindis' range you're going to have to be running Scorch for a total of about 1050 DPS... Except that past 30km your Garde IIs are in falloff and losing damage fast.
Meanwhile a Tach'mare is running INMF out to around 45km and doing around the same in pure gun DPS (plus an additional 100 or so in light drones at the beck and call of the drone bunny).

Between 45km and 60km the Tach'mare will lose DPS as it will switch to INXRay, perhaps dropping as low as 950 gun DPS - this is perhaps where the Navy 'geddon wins out?
Unfortunately the Garde IIs are at Optimal+Falloff at 42km and their damage is crashing - by the time you reach 54km they're doing nothing at all. Which means that the 'geddon also loses DPS, it's lost 60odd by the time the 'mare switches ammo and within half a dozen km the 'mare is ahead again.


So above INMF Optimal the Navy 'geddon is inferior to the Tach'mare... And INMF Optimal is low enough that in this range the Navy 'geddon is trying to compete, not with the Gleam loaded Tach'mares but with the Null loaded Vindicators. Guess who wins that contest.

So, between about 45 and 48km the 'geddon outdoes the Tach'mare, at less than 20km it's close but insignificant compared to the Vindi. Outside these range brackets you're better off with either a Tach'mare or a Vindi - the 'geddon doesn't even have the Machariel's mobility for easy MTAC...
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#37 - 2013-08-09 14:48:22 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:
If the Navy'geddon is going to reach 60km with Scorch you're going to be fitting three Republic Fleet TEs
How are RF TEs helping you reach 60km over regular ones? What?

Quote:
and to get the damage you'll have 4 HS (optimal would be 3 IN and one T2) which, with a Damage Control, fills your lows.
Yes, that's the idea behind shield tanking...what's the problem?

Quote:
Two Pith Invulns, an Extender and MWD fill your mids.

Why on earth would you use an extender? You need to plug the EM hole.

Quote:
Therefore your drones are unmodified and are doing about 300DPS up to a range of 30km.

300dps is not insignificant sir, but why are you assuming gardes? Seems like the longer ranged ones would make more sense...?

thhief ghabmoef
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#38 - 2013-08-09 18:48:08 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
How are RF TEs helping you reach 60km over regular ones? What?

Because I tried to get 60km optimal on TEs and miss-typed one of the cells - making it seem that RF gave a little more range than T2...

So in fact a Navy 'geddon is only going to reach 57km with T2 or RF TEs - which further reduces the ranges at which the 'geddon outdoes the 'mare.

Quote:
Yes, that's the idea behind shield tanking...what's the problem?

No problem at all, it keeps things even so that noone complains I've compared a 4HS 'mare with a 3HS 'geddon.

Quote:
Why on earth would you use an extender? You need to plug the EM hole.

Because the claim is that the tank is sufficient for high influence HQ sites - which means an extender.
And the EM hole is filled with an EM rig with pith invulns according to the published incursion community fits.

Quote:
300dps is not insignificant sir, but why are you assuming gardes? Seems like the longer ranged ones would make more sense...?

300DPS is not insignificant - it brings the Navy 'geddon up to nearly as much damage as the Tach'mare at that range.
I'm assuming Garde IIs because they're the only sentry drones which will get the Navy 'geddon within spitting distance of the Tach'mare in headline numbers.
So let's look at the Navy 'geddon with Bouncer IIs (around 260 DPS, 60km Optimal):
When the range is 19km or less, the Navy 'geddon out damages the Tach'mare (by around 100DPS), but it's not in competition with the Tach'mare at this range - it's up against the Null loaded Vindi.
Above 20km the Navy 'geddon will switch to Scorch and until 45km or so the Tach'mare is still running INMF - and the Tach'mare outdamages it (including 5 light drones which are with the drone-bunny).
From 45km the Tach'mare switches to IN XRay (it could be more granular but that works in the 'mare's favour) and the Navy 'geddon goes ahead again - by a little over 100DPS.
For 12km.
Alright, there's another 32km of falloff before the Navy 'geddon is doing nothing worth mentioning and with perhaps 18km of doing 80% maximum damage it can stay ahead a little longer...

So there is, indeed, a slight advantage with Bouncer IIs at the longer range bracket (if you drop sentries on warp-in you might be able to apply a little more than a Tach'mare on the TPPH second room Mara, though you're probably better just burning for the gate). When shooting at the 100km+ sniper targets however the Navy 'geddon isn't. Instead it must be shooting the short range targets - and against them it's either using Scorch and losing the damage race to Tach'mares with INMF loaded or it's using INMF and losing the damage race against the Vindis... So why use the Navy 'geddon when the 'mare and the Vindi are outdoing it?
Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#39 - 2013-08-10 13:52:07 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:

When the range is 19km or less, the Navy 'geddon out damages the Tach'mare (by around 100DPS), but it's not in competition with the Tach'mare at this range - it's up against the Null loaded Vindi.


You forgot to include the drone dps here, which means the Navy Geddon outdamages it by over 400 dps. Actually 480 with perfect skills, +6 implants and correct fit.
At the moment my Navy Geddon has 1560 dps at this range, and i often actually takes aggro from Vindicators on Sansha close range BS spawns.
That is because a Vindicator has around 1600+ DPS from turrets assuming Void T2 guns and +6 implants, and their heavy drones are usually not used for anything other than tower bash.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#40 - 2013-08-11 10:39:45 UTC
Cpt Tirel wrote:
You forgot to include the drone dps here,

No, I didn't.

Quote:
which means the Navy Geddon outdamages it by over 400 dps. Actually 480 with perfect skills, +6 implants and correct fit.

Then I'm obviously missing something - because with 4 IN Heat Sinks and a T2 ROF rig I'm not seeing that... In fact what I'm seeing is less than 100DPS difference.

[Fake Edit]
In fact what I've missed is that, unlike Gleam, Conflag doesn't have a further range penalty over MF and therefore I've incorrectly loaded the Navy 'geddon with INMF.
So the Navy 'geddon does have a larger advantage over the Tach'mare at Vindicator ranges than I previously thought... Though if you're static at your sentries and able to fight at Vindicator ranges why would you not do so in a Vindicator and load Garde IIs if the Vindi matches your guns and drones with just its guns?