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[Odyssey 1.1] Jump Clone skills *Updated with Advanced Infomorph Psychology*

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Rainbow Prism Colorblind
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#381 - 2013-08-07 11:50:05 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
You should remove jump clones from the game.


Ehe, it would solve the topic at lest.

I would not mind it, it would make the game intresting. ^^
Manfred Hideous
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#382 - 2013-08-07 12:11:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Manfred Hideous
Rainbow Prism Colorblind wrote:
I need to put in my 2 cent on this topic.

I see a lot of people complain that they need to jump every 12hr or so.
A lot of you also saying you want to JC into same station without a timer.

Mostly of witch the reason you want it is to be 'safe' or not 'risk' anything.
This is eve, the game is about Money and power.

A game without risk get dull an boring, also what about all gate campers?
they like to play the game as well in there own way.

Equal much are the gate buster groups, both would be affected with to much change in time.

Making JC time down to 19h is good enough, even that is quite powerful to bypass gate camps
or Blockades operations.

Oh and for people who complain it takes 40 jumps throw HS to get to the fun stuff,
ever considering Driving throw Low-sec/null to reduce it to 10?

or get a Bypass rout throw a WH system?

My point here is this! the game need risk!, it is space, its deadly, and everyone is after to skinn you wallet dry!

That is how the game should be.

Thank you.





OK, I have no idea with where my first response went (yet the quoted portion is still there. I'll try again.

1. There's very little risk in moving your pod without clone jumping. You pretty much can't be killed if you go gate to gate anywhere except for null, and it's not that risky even there.

2. Even if you could catch a pod, you'll get no drops. The very most you will do is destroy some imps. That's it, so there's no return on the kill anyway (save a very low bounty payout since pods don't count for much).

3. Not everyone has the time to poopsock their way through eve. Having to go 40 jumps to play roamer for a few hours is ********, especially when you're locked into that area for 24 hours (minimum) with no chance to return to home or another base.

4. The only real risk in travel is when you travel by ship. Clone jumping has absolutely no effect on this since you can't jump your ship with you. and you can't move your shi t unless you pilot it. THose people who don't want to risk that +5 clone to PVP might well just log another character or play another game (or *gasp* hit the gym) so you don't benefit from their longer timers for your stated reasons anyway.

Now, there are legitimate concerns over too short a clone jump window. Power projection and perfect clone are real issues. That said, I think a few hours delay will be sufficient to nullify 99% of the potential problems with those complaints.

None of this matters, though because CCP Rise already stated he's not going to listen to any arguments in his feedback thread. CCP have made their mind up already and this is just a forum for trolling us into arguments.
Meytal
Doomheim
#383 - 2013-08-07 12:21:02 UTC
Iamien wrote:
CCP Rise. Please do not Seed this skill on the market. Put it in exploration cans or in the LP store of the under-appreciated science mission corps.

Let supply/demand play out here. There is enormous demand, let the isk sink be avoided this time.

On the contrary, if you are going to make this a skill and not just the norm, use it as an ISK sink. Goodness knows we need some more of them. This would be considered a luxury skill and so could be quite pricey.
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#384 - 2013-08-07 15:44:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Freighdee Katt
Karen Akagai wrote:
What's next? A skill to make the drone UI less obtuse? A skill to add a "volume" column to asteroid scanners? A skill to be able to reverse the mouse wheel?

Why stop there? We can surely think of all sorts of problems we don't even have now that could be cured by new skills.

Add a login queue for clients that defaults to 10 minutes, and give a skill that lets us increase queue priority. At Queue Jumping V your login times could be reduced by as much as 99%! It's both a quality of life improvement AND a tactical advantage, since you can get in game (or relog to your alts) that much faster than those who don't invest in this completely optional new skill that is completely optional!

Increase the undock delay to 5 minutes and then give us a Precision Maneuvering skill that will make undocking quicker and more efficient. At PM V you can undock in as little as 5 seconds! It's both a quality of life improvement AND a tactical advantage, since you can be in warp and en route to the battlefield before your opponents are even clear of the docking ring! Remember, this skill is TOTALLY OPTIONAL!

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#385 - 2013-08-07 15:51:53 UTC
The hilarious thing is, if they had announced that they were just changing the base timer, nobody would have been up in arms demanding that this MUST BE A SKILL instead.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#386 - 2013-08-07 17:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mara Rinn wrote:
Is a reduction to locking time a "quality of life" improvement or a tactical benefit?
Is a reduction to align time a "quality of life" improvement or a tactical benefit?
Is a reduction to manufacturing time a "quality of life" improvement or a tactical benefit?
Is a reduction to POS fuel consumption a "quality of life" improvement or a tactical benefit?

None of those are quality of life.

Being able to lock a target with ctrl+click, rather than “select in overview, mouse over to selected items, click lock” is quality of l life. Being able to align to a target with a+click, rather than “select in overview, mouse over to selected items, click align to” is quality of life. Being able to dump a whole bunch of blueprints into a facility and set up a batch job using available slots rather than “select blueprint, rclick→manufacture, select facility, select slot, select input, select output, select number of runs, accept, accept, repeat nine more times” is quality of life (too bad we don't have it yet). Being able to use fuel blocks rather than individual fuel components is quality of life.

In this case, the goal to make clone jumping not be pushed back later and later every time you use it, but rather make it be something you do once a day is the same kind of quality of life improvement: it doesn't give you any advantage, but makes the game better to play and removes pointless busywork. It is a recognised game flaw, and if they want to fix it, the correct way of going about that is to fix it. Painting over the problem with nonsensical timesinks is not fixing it — it's adding another design flaw (that will inevitably be used as a piss-poor excuse for never fixing the problem after all).

Quote:
I am all for increasing the hour reduction of this skill from 1 to 2, along with increasing the base clone jump timer from 24 hours to 28 hours just to make it clear that you are indeed buying an advantage.
But that's not the goal. Again, my objection to this idiocy is that they purport to want to fix something they see as a long-standing flaw, but then they decide to not actually do that, but rather do something completely different. If they want to add in skills that give people something to train and let them clonejump more often, then sure. Let's do that. But then don't paint it up as a fix to the explicitly recognised design flaw because it does nothing of the kind.

If “the goal here is to avoid situations where jump clone delay pushes jump clone use back a bit each play session until eventually people wind up stranded in the wrong clone during their few hours of play time” then they should make it so that the clone delay does not push jump clone use back a bit each play session. This is something completely unrelated to letting people train the advantage of being able to jump more often. One is a (lack-of-)quality-of-life design flaw. It is fixed by removing the design flaw. The other is a gameplay option. It is fixed by giving players options.

Not being subjected to design flaws should not be an option — it should be the default — and using the latter to do the former is inherently incorrect and in every way awful design. Until they've reduced the clone jump timer to 23 hours (or, hell, 23h55min), the design flaw they claim they want to fix is left unfixed, and people should keep asking CCP for that kind of reduction. “Just train the skill” is an unacceptable, lazy and intellectually dishonest answer to someone being subjected to something the devs have correctly identified as not working properly.
ISD Cura Ursus
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#387 - 2013-08-07 18:32:30 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Cura Ursus
Double Post by Cura Ursus.

Once it was double,
Now it is only single.
Deletion is done.



Deleted double post by request.

ISD Cura Ursus

Lieutenant Commander

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Balzac Legazou
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#388 - 2013-08-07 19:33:59 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
The more med clone jumping the more money CCP makes - don't expect them to go up against their bottom line.

KIller Wabbit wrote:

Any sink means more plex sales.


CCP has just decreased the cost of medical clones, and suggested they might reduce it even more. They clearly don't see it as a relevant ISK sink. A 0.1% increase in trading taxes (or a 0.1% reduction in ISK generation from NPCs) would have a much bigger impact.
Shantetha
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#389 - 2013-08-07 19:34:12 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Update:

We had a chat this morning and will be leaving this as a skill rather than changing the base timer.

There are good points on both sides, and it depends a lot on how you are using jump clones, but because there certainly will be strategic implications for at least some players, we feel that having this as a skill fits well. It is by no means mandatory like the old learning skills, and it is not purely a quality of life change (although that is certainly a large part of the design goal), so it makes sense to have training associated with it.

The skill will be rank 2 and will cost very little so for the players that want to use it there won't be significant barriers.

On a related note: there is some people discussing the drawbacks of making these small adjustments rather than large systemic changes and I must say that we feel really good about small changes in many situations. Systemic changes are important and should never be ignored or delayed because of small tweaks, but when there are very solid improvements available, like this one, we should not put them off because the system as a whole isn't perfect.

Thanks for the feedback

edit: oh and also, we definitely will not be extending the timer any further. The implications related to travel become problematic fairly quickly and we don't want to worsen that situation at all.



3 days before every pvp corp and nullsec corp requires it trained to 5 as part of joining requirements.

Nope not the same as a learning skill at all. Roll mandatory for qol , nope not the same at all. Roll

if you have jump clones, you will have this skill. It's bad implementation but better then nothing. GJ on keeping JC and learning implants as a reason to not pvp.
Balzac Legazou
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#390 - 2013-08-07 19:39:50 UTC
Rainbow Prism Colorblind wrote:
IF you remove the +4 and +5 it would only make +3 cost around 1 bil instead sense it would be the best implant.


+3 implants cost 5 million ISK + 5000 LP from the LP store. I really don't think anyone would pay one billion for 5000 LP, when you can get them in less than an hour by doing a couple of L4 missions.
Balzac Legazou
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#391 - 2013-08-07 19:49:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Balzac Legazou
Rainbow Prism Colorblind wrote:

Hmm, what is this talk about barriers, and why you you NEED to train the skill? your not forced to have the skill learned,


Rise described the issue pretty well:

CCP Rise wrote:
The goal here is to avoid situations where jump clone delay pushes jump clone use back a bit each play session until eventually people wind up stranded in the wrong clone during their few hours of play time.


In other words, you are forced to train this skill to "fix" the design flaw he identified.

That's why most people would much rather see the issue separated into two:

1. If this is a design flaw (as mentioned in the first post), then fix it by reducing the base timer (ex., to 23 hours).

2. If CCP thinks there should be a skill to decrease the cooldown even further, then add that skill independently of the fix for the design flaw.

If they had just announced #1 (implementing the obvious "fix" for dailies that every other MMO has had for years), they wouldn't now have dozens of people whining to make #2 more powerful.
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#392 - 2013-08-07 19:49:30 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
As for specific examples... well, to be honest there are far to many to begin to list here (and my time is limited at the moment). Perhaps the simplest way to say it in the limited time and space I have is that it becomes far too easy to go on a day trip in a fully equipped clone in one corner of EVE... and then that evening hop back across the universe (again in a fully equipped clone) for a completely different activity that night.

No commitment necessary, no real planning necessary, no sacrifices made... just click a button and there you are, fully outfitted for whatever the occasion may be. That's not really challenging game play.


Actually, what you describe isn't gameplay at all. It's the meta around the gameplay.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#393 - 2013-08-07 20:16:55 UTC
Thank you! 19h is just right - doesn't change the way in which clones will be used but lets you change once a day.

I read the first page of feedback and you are all ungrateful swine!

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#394 - 2013-08-07 20:21:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Hey, I am at the office working so don't go trying to use the holiday as an excuse to not be here.



What he said Lol


Also: happy with this happening finally even if imho this isn't going as far as it could be, specially knowing the average age of Eve players is at the most active one (some at least), but 19h is already a huge step.

Thx for taking care of this important issue for many RL active people (you should know something about it too heh)

EDIT: for all ungrateful haters you guys should get a job and stop moaning for something not impacting whatever in your awesome existence.
By the way CCP should also nerf pod traveling to make you guys stop moaning for and with fake arguments.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#395 - 2013-08-07 20:28:17 UTC
Shantetha wrote:
3 days before every pvp corp and nullsec corp requires it trained to 5 as part of joining requirements.



If it happens pack your stuff ,sell whatever you can't or want to move and find a better environment corporation/alliance.

As simple as it is if you or someone is in whatever corp/alliance and has to deal with this kind of crap as mandatory you're playing the wrong game, in the wrong area with he wrong corporation and specially alliance.

Try to play with mature people who know what having a life is and leave those special snowflakes in between them.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#396 - 2013-08-07 20:31:45 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Is a reduction to locking time a "quality of life" improvement or a tactical benefit?
Is a reduction to align time a "quality of life" improvement or a tactical benefit?
Is a reduction to manufacturing time a "quality of life" improvement or a tactical benefit?
Is a reduction to POS fuel consumption a "quality of life" improvement or a tactical benefit?

None of those are quality of life.

Being able to lock a target with ctrl+click, rather than “select in overview, mouse over to selected items, click lock” is quality of l life. Being able to align to a target with a+click, rather than “select in overview, mouse over to selected items, click align to” is quality of life. Being able to dump a whole bunch of blueprints into a facility and set up a batch job using available slots rather than “select blueprint, rclick→manufacture, select facility, select slot, select input, select output, select number of runs, accept, accept, repeat nine more times” is quality of life (too bad we don't have it yet). Being able to use fuel blocks rather than individual fuel components is quality of life.

In this case, the goal to make clone jumping not be pushed back later and later every time you use it, but rather make it be something you do once a day is the same kind of quality of life improvement: it doesn't give you any advantage, but makes the game better to play and removes pointless busywork. It is a recognised game flaw, and if they want to fix it, the correct way of going about that is to fix it. Painting over the problem with nonsensical timesinks is not fixing it — it's adding another design flaw (that will inevitably be used as a piss-poor excuse for never fixing the problem after all).

Quote:
I am all for increasing the hour reduction of this skill from 1 to 2, along with increasing the base clone jump timer from 24 hours to 28 hours just to make it clear that you are indeed buying an advantage.
But that's not the goal. Again, my objection to this idiocy is that they purport to want to fix something they see as a long-standing flaw, but then they decide to not actually do that, but rather do something completely different. If they want to add in skills that give people something to train and let them clonejump more often, then sure. Let's do that. But then don't paint it up as a fix to the explicitly recognised design flaw because it does nothing of the kind.

If “the goal here is to avoid situations where jump clone delay pushes jump clone use back a bit each play session until eventually people wind up stranded in the wrong clone during their few hours of play time” then they should make it so that the clone delay does not push jump clone use back a bit each play session. This is something completely unrelated to letting people train the advantage of being able to jump more often. One is a (lack-of-)quality-of-life design flaw. It is fixed by removing the design flaw. The other is a gameplay option. It is fixed by giving players options.

Not being subjected to design flaws should not be an option — it should be the default — and using the latter to do the former is inherently incorrect and in every way awful design. Until they've reduced the clone jump timer to 23 hours (or, hell, 23h55min), the design flaw they claim they want to fix is left unfixed, and people should keep asking CCP for that kind of reduction. “Just train the skill” is an unacceptable, lazy and intellectually dishonest answer to someone being subjected to something the devs have correctly identified as not working properly.
The gospel, everyone. Read it and enjoy.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#397 - 2013-08-07 20:33:48 UTC
Not sure I like this plan.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#398 - 2013-08-07 20:45:34 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
for all ungrateful haters you guys should get a job and stop moaning for something not impacting whatever in your awesome existence.
Being stuck with a game design flaw just because I don't want to spend money and time on some irrelevant skill that I don't need impacts me quite a bit…

…and, quite frankly, makes no sense. Add in the skill, if that's what everyone wants, but fix the design flaw first.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#399 - 2013-08-07 21:03:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
for all ungrateful haters you guys should get a job and stop moaning for something not impacting whatever in your awesome existence.
Being stuck with a game design flaw just because I don't want to spend money and time on some irrelevant skill that I don't need impacts me quite a bit…

…and, quite frankly, makes no sense. Add in the skill, if that's what everyone wants, but fix the design flaw first.
Tippia, I would LOVE to sit here and tell you that your argument carries so much logic that anyone--Devs, forum warriors, average players, etc.--who read it ought to know that the choice to implement a skill is the wrong way to go. I would tell you that your impeccable logic makes the best, most concise argument in this whole thread. It clears the issue up well, addresses why implementing a skill to address a design intent "problem" is wrong, as well as provides reasons for using a skill for a meaningful change is a better avenue to take. Indeed, I would be right to say that your logic is unequalled. But sadly, I cannot tell you that it will not fall on deaf ears.

After having a discussion, CCP has determined that it's better to require you to train a skill to improve your daily quality-of-life. Or, if you are inconvenienced by training the time sink, you can always be *more* inconvenienced by not being able to play in your "normal" clone at your regular time. I think this is the most frustrating aspect of this proposal: CCP didn't say we want to improve clone travel, so we're going to start by decreasing the time a little to assess its impacts. They identified the frustrating situation where you essentially have to JC every other day, since, in many cases, the timer falls outside of "regular" login hours. Obviously, if it is a matter of player inconvenience and a solution for it, there should be a baseline change.

Further, there are no real, credible arguments to support keeping it implemented as a skill. If it was an issue with force projection, any and all arguments there fall, since people can just pod express an unlimited amount of times in a similar amount of time. And if its a matter of using a skill to derive a real benefit, then why remove the learning skills? Those, too, were "optional" yet provided a real benefit.

At this point, I expect to see other "quality of life skills" that allow me to access my POS SMAs from farther away, disable the shake on the jump tunnel camera, extend my skill queue 1 hour per level, or similar. I mean, hey, they sky's the limit!

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#400 - 2013-08-07 21:13:28 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
At this point, I expect to see other "quality of life skills" that allow me to access my POS SMAs from farther away, disable the shake on the jump tunnel camera, extend my skill queue 1 hour per level, or similar. I mean, hey, they sky's the limit!


I'd pay an extra PLEX per month to eliminate the jump tunnel animation and audio which makes my speakers crackle.