Intergalactic Summit

In other words, you attempted to act like a schoolyard bully with the people you 'need', were dreadfully surprised to find that your victim - who has been involved in some pretty gruelling action against the State of late - was not a total pushover, and then felt obligated to pull a knife just so you didn't lose some street cred.

If we're going with that explanation, then fine, I find the Republic innocent of murder and attempt to invade, and guilty of colossal incompetence, immaturity and downright stupidity. Quite how you find that acceptable behavior from your leadership, I don't know. As I've stated elsewhere, Shakor (or whichever of his cronies was responsible) put Olf in charge, clearly having no concept of a Plan B. Whether that was from malice, arrogance or pure idiocy, whoever did it needs to be kicked out, because you really don't want someone like that running your damn government.

Again, I would note that you have no more evidence of this not being an isolated incident than of it being an isolated incident. In fact, the lack of a pattern gives credence to the idea that it is an isolated incident.

That said, I would not fault the Federation at all for remaining wary, but what you are calling for is to flat out assume it will happen again and will happen soon when you have no real reason to make such an assumption.



Except for the simple fact that, from a strategic standpoint, it is likely a horrible idea, as the State doesn't have the strength or resources to aid us against the Amarr while still being enemies of the Federation, nor do they share a common enemy in the Empire the way the Federation and the Republic do.

Alliances are born more out of convenience than actual likeness of thought or culture or even honor.



Your analogy falls apart harder than the neighbor analogy I've seen Shintoko use.

If you wish to make a schoolyard bully analogy and be accurate, you would need to cast the Federation in that role. The actions of the Fleet would be more akin to standing up to that bully. Usually, when a bully is stood up to, they cave in, as they are usually incompetent cowards. On rare occasions, the bully turns out to actually have the guts and capability to back up their bullying against someone who stands up to them. This turned out to be the case, and we got beaten down pretty severely.

Now then, while standing up to a bully is generally the right thing to do, it's clearly debatable whether or not the way the Republic chose to do it was the right way, but if you stand up to a bully like that and they don't back down and you then do back down, you're only strengthening the bully's position. When the bully is fully capable of beating you down, it becomes a lose-lose situation.

As for your comparison of diplomatic precedence to street cred, you show a complete lack of understanding of diplomacy if you think that's even remotely comparable.


Frankly, I do want someone who will stand up to "bullying" as my leader. Whether or not that person is Shakor is my business, and the business of Republic citizens, not that of the IGS.



We had Naglfars parked in blaster-range of Moroses. It'd be easier to win a knife fight with an unloaded gun than to win that fight.

I'll just point to the smaller fleet of Republic military vessels that was turned back from Federation space a few weeks before Colelie. While that incursion didn't end in shooting, it certainly counts as an incident.

Intriguingly, the Minmatar Tribal Council formally apologized to the Federation afterwards.



So you're saying, like Cipher7, it was a symbolic gesture? Cold comfort to the family and friends of the tens of thousands of Federation dead.

The fact that the Tribal Council has not commented is one of the reasons I wonder if there's something of strategic importance that keeps them quiet, something that may also justify the incursion.



Not in the way Cipher7 seemed to think.

I question whether or not the Republic Fleet actually expected that they would need to fight, that they had fully expected the Federation Navy to submit and withdraw. But when the Federation Navy refused to stand down and as such called the bluff, I think the Fleet was told they had to fight it.



And I still maintain that you are being shortsighted. You may not recognize the benefit the Federation receives from the alliance, but that doesn't mean that it isn't there.

It's a shame you have no idea what you're talking about. But keep falling back on that tired and flawed analogy all you want.

You know, if you're going to tell someone they're wrong, you should at least try to explain why.

Well, assuming you actually have something, and you're not just trying to throw words out there to save face for the fact you lack an actual point.

Some of you in this thread need to climb down from your high horses before you get a nosebleed or altitude sickness. Seriously.

Look, all of our respective governments have made some pretty egregious errors. Errors that, unfortunately, have cost lives. All the empires and outlaw factions have blood on their hands. None of them are perfect, blameless or pure. The Republic Fleet did something that was illegal, counterproductive and downright stupid. Most of us Matari loyalists have already stipulated that. If I was in charge of the Fleet those ships would have never been deployed. Sadly, I wasn't consulted and what happened, happened. We can't alter the time/space continuum to change events.

It would be great if the Shakor government would issue an apology, a statement or, something stating why they undertook the actions they did but, that doesn't appear to be forthcoming. So, can we all just agree that one of the great empires (yet again) did a dumb thing, look for ways to repair strained relations and, for the love of the gods, drop this pointless bickering?

Or, continue on and when the next scandal involving your nation breaks expect to be treated as we Matari are being treated now.

Of the two, the Republic supporters are right. Invasion, destruction of life and property can indeed be a dumb thing, and in this case was.

The fact that it was a dumb thing increases the tragedy, rather than diminishing it. Which is why the steps need to be taken to ensure that said dumb thing doesn't happen again, and first step of that is for Federation supporters to not suddenly start giving the Matari the cold shoulder and justify a burgeoning sense of resentment.

Well, I for one am happy. This is literally all I wanted to hear from someone on the Republic side of the fence - third paragraph in particular. Thank you, Ms Rella. I'm done here.

Contrary to what my race, allegiance and arguments might indicate, I'm not hostile to the Matari people or the pilots of Electus Matari. I still question a lot of the arguments made about why Colelie happened, but an acknowledgement that Shakor's administration dropped the ball, and hasn't done a damn thing in acknowledgement one way or the other is all I really wanted.