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Crime & Punishment

 
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Collective front launched against the New Order, James315 and miner bumping.

First post First post
Author
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1141 - 2013-08-06 13:59:35 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:

But I dont think your right about James being glad to see this declared an exploit, since he is the one who uses it...


Oh, I hope so much that this policy gets changed, that wardecs follow people dropping corp. Maybe you're right about James, but I guess he will find clever ways around it - and use the wardec mechanism himself to bring other corps in line.



I actually agree with that part. I really liked psychotic monk's idea for the 7-day timer following a corp drop that he talked about in his CSM thread a bit ago. I dont, however, want anyone to "find their way around it", cleverly or otherwise. Why should James not have to fight his battles?

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Pfeils Goodman
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1142 - 2013-08-06 14:35:29 UTC
What purpose does James' one man corp serve his goals or vision? Sure it is nice to have but if the rules changed on wardecs James could just as easily run the New Order from an NPC corp.

When something is as justified as the salvation of hisec, there will always be a way.
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1143 - 2013-08-06 14:45:14 UTC
Pfeils Goodman wrote:
What purpose does James' one man corp serve his goals or vision? Sure it is nice to have but if the rules changed on wardecs James could just as easily run the New Order from an NPC corp.

When something is as justified as the salvation of hisec, there will always be a way.



Yeah, hisec savior nonsense aside --- that is still ducking wardecs. Oh, sorry. Correction -- ELITE wardec avoiding. James would be elite at cowardice and hiding in an NPC corp.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1144 - 2013-08-06 15:12:58 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:

Yeah, hisec savior nonsense aside --- that is still ducking wardecs. Oh, sorry. Correction -- ELITE wardec avoiding. James would be elite at cowardice and hiding in an NPC corp.


All the more reasons to make players in NPC corps able to be wardecced. The New Order will be the first to welcome this change. CCP, please make it so.
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1145 - 2013-08-06 16:07:02 UTC
Ok. I have come to terms with the fact that nobody agrees with me on this stuff. You guys win. Gank away.

But, will someone please level it out for me, without the "savior or highsec" bullshit, why everyone has such a problem with miners? Why do you care if they pay 15 bucks a month to AFK mine? How does that affect your game?

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Michael Hickey
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1146 - 2013-08-06 16:27:04 UTC
Actually no. I didn't gank that guy simply to be a bully. It is roleplaying. You should learn the difference. One of the lessons that I taught him is that you should always be on the lookout for bullies.

Instead, I've been EVEmailing him on how there are lots of other ways to play the game so that he doesn't have to resort to the boredom of having to mine in highsec in order to eke out a living. I'm also opening his mind up to the social aspect of the game. And, since his teammates weren't looking our for him in the first place, and that he also is into PVP, (see the power of communication here?) I'm trying to steer him towards a corp that does a lot of pew pew. One that I'm thinking of joining myself.

Now, does this really sound like the act of a bully to you?

I don't think so. I would argue that I'm trying to save him. Also, being concorded is inconsequential, and so is the loss of material. I mean really. Do I look that worried about it to you?

Furthermore, why be mad at me, bro? Why this self righteous angst? This is a game, after all. I'm not here to seek your approval. Or maybe you just don't like the change in the status quo?

And yes, bravo to how you live your life in lowsec. Bravo indeed. 'slow clap'. Really. I'm impressed. I really am. Problem is, I also lurk around in lowsec, and even nullsec on occasion. Death is not a deterrent to me. It is only a learning experience. Besides, I've been podded in lowsec before, but yet I keep coming back.

Leto Thule wrote:

Lmao. If you had read my other posts, you would have seen that Im not a miner, and that I live in lowsec. You know, where I can PVP without getting owned by concord. Your right, you CAN do whatever you want. I never claimed I wanted someone to stop you. I DID say that its just douchey to pick on miners who cant defend themseves. So yeah, your welcome to your game style, of course. But dont try to act like its nothing but bullying. New Order is a bunch of greifers / wardec dodgers.
Michael Hickey
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1147 - 2013-08-06 17:03:26 UTC
Okay, bud. Here is my problem when it comes to AFK miners and botters.

In your typical carebear games such as RuneScape and World of Warcraft, botters get their accounts banned. Why? It's because their actions have a disrupting effect on the game.

First off, it's cheating when you're not actually playing the game. I don't like cheaters, and I know I'm not the only one with that stance.

And second, the greed of these botters is depressing the price of certain ores, and is distorting the economy within the game as a result. Strangely, a lot of people don't like that, either. Just like people IRL complaining about the price of gasoline like they do because a lot of folks are convinced that the price is fixed. Yes, I do stand to profit from the rise in price of these ores, but that is due to a market correction. Matter of fact, anyone with a mining permit is poised to gain from this market correction, and a rising tide really does float all boats. So, do you now understand how the AFKs and botters are actually hurting the little people, and not helping? Don't forget. The economy affects you, too.

However, instead of complaining to the gods at CCP for relief like the carebears have done, we are choosing to handle this issue in game, and CCP likes emergent gameplay. Smile

Leto Thule wrote:
Ok. I have come to terms with the fact that nobody agrees with me on this stuff. You guys win. Gank away.

But, will someone please level it out for me, without the "savior or highsec" bullshit, why everyone has such a problem with miners? Why do you care if they pay 15 bucks a month to AFK mine? How does that affect your game?
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#1148 - 2013-08-06 18:56:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Plastic Psycho
Leto Thule wrote:
Ok. I have come to terms with the fact that nobody agrees with me on this stuff. You guys win. Gank away.

But, will someone please level it out for me, without the "savior or highsec" bullshit, why everyone has such a problem with miners? Why do you care if they pay 15 bucks a month to AFK mine? How does that affect your game?

Quite honestly? It was the massive whinging and kvetching in the run-up to Odyssey. "Doom, despair, and agony" the mining community cried. I got tired of it. After years of listening to whinging about mechanics, ganking, spawn rates, multi-boxers, and all the rest of the accumulated whining, I finally snapped.

Nothing more, nothing less.
Michael Hickey
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1149 - 2013-08-06 19:14:38 UTC
Wardeccing NPC corps seems rather dumb, or maybe rather interesting, as it involves a lot of innocents in a 'war' that they know nothing about. For example, I do not participate in NPC corp chat, so they'll have no clue what I'm doing in the game until after they're wardecced, and were given a reason why. LOL That could actually be fun. Big smile

However, why not wardec an individual that is in an NPC corp, in order to close that loophole? Idea

The two benefits that I see to this are:

1. Making the consequences a bit steeper for those that participate in terrorist activities.
2. Encouraging players in NPC corps to join a player owned corp for self defense, thus encouraging more social interaction overall.

Ahh, yes. Wardeccing individuals in NPC corps could be a good thing, indeed!

Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:

Yeah, hisec savior nonsense aside --- that is still ducking wardecs. Oh, sorry. Correction -- ELITE wardec avoiding. James would be elite at cowardice and hiding in an NPC corp.


All the more reasons to make players in NPC corps able to be wardecced. The New Order will be the first to welcome this change. CCP, please make it so.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1150 - 2013-08-06 19:25:24 UTC
Michael Hickey wrote:

Ahh, yes. Wardeccing individuals in NPC corps could be a good thing, indeed!


Yes, that's what I wrote:

Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:

All the more reasons to make players in NPC corps able to be wardecced. The New Order will be the first to welcome this change. CCP, please make it so.

Michael Hickey
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1151 - 2013-08-06 19:29:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Hickey
I didn't read that far back in the comments, (now that there's a lot of chatter) but yes. It is nice to see that we're in full agreement. Blink

Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Michael Hickey wrote:

Ahh, yes. Wardeccing individuals in NPC corps could be a good thing, indeed!


Yes, that's what I wrote:

Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:

All the more reasons to make players in NPC corps able to be wardecced. The New Order will be the first to welcome this change. CCP, please make it so.

Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1152 - 2013-08-06 19:31:53 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Pfeils Goodman wrote:
What purpose does James' one man corp serve his goals or vision? Sure it is nice to have but if the rules changed on wardecs James could just as easily run the New Order from an NPC corp.

When something is as justified as the salvation of hisec, there will always be a way.



Yeah, hisec savior nonsense aside --- that is still ducking wardecs. Oh, sorry. Correction -- ELITE wardec avoiding. James would be elite at cowardice and hiding in an NPC corp.


James was in an NPC corp and the carebears taunted him saying how if only he were in a player corp they would show him. James, being an educator at heart, showed them how the rules advocated by previous carebears to avoid consequences would thwart them. If the rules were changed to 7 days, James would probably return to an NPC corp to once again point out how broken they are.

Hisec is a mishmash of rules, some good, some bad, mostly nonsensical.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."

Michael Hickey
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1153 - 2013-08-06 19:55:52 UTC
I've lost it when day after day, these carebears can bot in safety all day while I risk my boat in lowsec for the minerals I need, just so I can eke out a meager living manufacturing stuff. I actually pull in more ISK looting other people's wrecks, so now I largely do that instead. Again, at my risk.

Nah!

These carebears will not mine in safety anymore! Not without the purchase of a permit.

Plastic Psycho wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Ok. I have come to terms with the fact that nobody agrees with me on this stuff. You guys win. Gank away.

But, will someone please level it out for me, without the "savior or highsec" bullshit, why everyone has such a problem with miners? Why do you care if they pay 15 bucks a month to AFK mine? How does that affect your game?

Quite honestly? It was the massive whinging and kvetching in the run-up to Odyssey. "Doom, despair, and agony" the mining community cried. I got tired of it. After years of listening to whinging about mechanics, ganking, spawn rates, multi-boxers, and all the rest of the accumulated whining, I finally snapped.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1154 - 2013-08-06 19:59:54 UTC
I don't hate miners. I have friends who mine and I even mine sometimes when needed. What is not acceptable is risk free, AFK, isk generation. That is the antithesis of what I thought Eve was when I signed up. Reading about all the barge buffs, ganking and wardec nerfs over the years has shown that forces within CCP wanted to make hisec even safer. I believe the themepark like style this would create would kill Eve and although I've not been playing long I love Eve and am willing to help save it in my own small way. That's why james has earned the title of 'saviour ' that you disparage : he is trying to save hisec, and Eve from themselves.

Is AFK mining risk free? Currently it is almost, if not entirely impossible, to kill miners at a profit. Wardecers pay at least 50mil for a war only to watch targets drop corp and evade. Awoxers have some luck if you only factor lost ships, on an isk per hour basis most of the time they'd probably be better of mining themselves. The New Order pilots, especially solo ones, can make a decent amount of isk. But the New Order relies on donors who either believe in the cause or just like the blog, for its ship replacement program. Without that program most Knights could only afford to gank as an occasional lark.

AFK mining, without James 315 and his New Order, is almost entirely risk free. Since those minerals and that isk are part of the same economy as lowsec and nullsec where the risks are far far higher, it is wrong to allow it.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."

Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1155 - 2013-08-07 17:09:23 UTC
I think Chribba should have a say in this too ...