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Gerne Broteau transferred into Republic custody

Author
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2013-07-29 19:52:07 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:
Sure, I've voiced in the past that in many ways I would rather have the Caldari as an ally than the Federation, but that's largely because I have more respect for the Caldari than I have for the Federation.


This is, in my opinion, a fantastic idea and I wholeheartedly agree. Seriously.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#82 - 2013-07-29 20:07:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Repentence Tyrathlion
Katarina Musana wrote:
Frankly, what I see is a bluff that failed horribly. The Fleet made a large show of force and determination, expecting the Federation Navy to cave and back down...

...Regardless, I do not believe that the loss of life on either side was the intention of the Republic Fleet's incursion into Federation space. I think the intention was to force the "soft" Federation into caving and handing over Broteau while setting a precedence of Matari dominance, something that I have personal issue with that I will not elaborate on further here, as this is not the place to make my complaints. The Federation is clearly not as "soft" as those giving the orders believed them to be.


In other words, you attempted to act like a schoolyard bully with the people you 'need', were dreadfully surprised to find that your victim - who has been involved in some pretty gruelling action against the State of late - was not a total pushover, and then felt obligated to pull a knife just so you didn't lose some street cred.

If we're going with that explanation, then fine, I find the Republic innocent of murder and attempt to invade, and guilty of colossal incompetence, immaturity and downright stupidity. Quite how you find that acceptable behavior from your leadership, I don't know. As I've stated elsewhere, Shakor (or whichever of his cronies was responsible) put Olf in charge, clearly having no concept of a Plan B. Whether that was from malice, arrogance or pure idiocy, whoever did it needs to be kicked out, because you really don't want someone like that running your damn government.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#83 - 2013-07-29 20:17:20 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:

Frankly, what I see is a bluff that failed horribly.


One threatens with a loaded gun, and bluffs with an unloaded gun. A bluff is a threat without acting on that threat when it is called. If it is called and then acted on, it is a threat. The Federation called it, the Republic fired. It was no bluff.
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#84 - 2013-07-30 14:00:38 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Katarina Musana wrote:
The question is not whether or not the Fleet's intentions were right. The question is whether or not the killing of those who died aboard those Moroses is premeditated murder, which it isn't, just like the example you gave of the bank guard being killed is not premeditated murder.


I actually agree with you here, Musana. I don't think the attack constituted premeditated murder. An unwarranted attack by one ally upon another? Certainly. A precursor to a continued invasion by the Republic? Not yet, at least. Murder? Hardly.

Which is why I distinctly don't stand with those who call for the Federation to declare war upon the Republic. Given the viciousness of the attack, the lack of response from Shakor and the tribal leadership, and the lack of indication that it was an isolated incident, I do feel that the Federation ending the alliance with the Republic (with the attendant redistribution of Federation Naval forces and Tripwire infrastructure along the Federation-Republic border) is both warranted and wise. But war? No. Enough people have been killed over Colelie.


Again, I would note that you have no more evidence of this not being an isolated incident than of it being an isolated incident. In fact, the lack of a pattern gives credence to the idea that it is an isolated incident.

That said, I would not fault the Federation at all for remaining wary, but what you are calling for is to flat out assume it will happen again and will happen soon when you have no real reason to make such an assumption.

Quote:
This is, in my opinion, a fantastic idea and I wholeheartedly agree. Seriously.


Except for the simple fact that, from a strategic standpoint, it is likely a horrible idea, as the State doesn't have the strength or resources to aid us against the Amarr while still being enemies of the Federation, nor do they share a common enemy in the Empire the way the Federation and the Republic do.

Alliances are born more out of convenience than actual likeness of thought or culture or even honor.

Quote:
In other words, you attempted to act like a schoolyard bully with the people you 'need', were dreadfully surprised to find that your victim - who has been involved in some pretty gruelling action against the State of late - was not a total pushover, and then felt obligated to pull a knife just so you didn't lose some street cred.

If we're going with that explanation, then fine, I find the Republic innocent of murder and attempt to invade, and guilty of colossal incompetence, immaturity and downright stupidity. Quite how you find that acceptable behavior from your leadership, I don't know. As I've stated elsewhere, Shakor (or whichever of his cronies was responsible) put Olf in charge, clearly having no concept of a Plan B. Whether that was from malice, arrogance or pure idiocy, whoever did it needs to be kicked out, because you really don't want someone like that running your damn government.


Your analogy falls apart harder than the neighbor analogy I've seen Shintoko use.

If you wish to make a schoolyard bully analogy and be accurate, you would need to cast the Federation in that role. The actions of the Fleet would be more akin to standing up to that bully. Usually, when a bully is stood up to, they cave in, as they are usually incompetent cowards. On rare occasions, the bully turns out to actually have the guts and capability to back up their bullying against someone who stands up to them. This turned out to be the case, and we got beaten down pretty severely.

Now then, while standing up to a bully is generally the right thing to do, it's clearly debatable whether or not the way the Republic chose to do it was the right way, but if you stand up to a bully like that and they don't back down and you then do back down, you're only strengthening the bully's position. When the bully is fully capable of beating you down, it becomes a lose-lose situation.

As for your comparison of diplomatic precedence to street cred, you show a complete lack of understanding of diplomacy if you think that's even remotely comparable.


Frankly, I do want someone who will stand up to "bullying" as my leader. Whether or not that person is Shakor is my business, and the business of Republic citizens, not that of the IGS.

Evi Polevhia wrote:
One threatens with a loaded gun, and bluffs with an unloaded gun. A bluff is a threat without acting on that threat when it is called. If it is called and then acted on, it is a threat. The Federation called it, the Republic fired. It was no bluff.


We had Naglfars parked in blaster-range of Moroses. It'd be easier to win a knife fight with an unloaded gun than to win that fight.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#85 - 2013-07-30 14:30:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Katarina Musana wrote:
We had Naglfars parked in blaster-range of Moroses. It'd be easier to win a knife fight with an unloaded gun than to win that fight.


Basic mistake of fighting on the other side's terms. And nobody reaches the kind of rank in the Republic Fleet where you're the CO of a dreadnought squadron without knowing at least that most basic rule of warfare.

I'm left to conclude that they fell on their sword. "Death before dishonour" and all that. Usually the Matari are more pragmatic than that in combat, but the circumstances were far from usual.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2013-07-30 14:50:21 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:

Again, I would note that you have no more evidence of this not being an isolated incident than of it being an isolated incident. In fact, the lack of a pattern gives credence to the idea that it is an isolated incident.

That said, I would not fault the Federation at all for remaining wary, but what you are calling for is to flat out assume it will happen again and will happen soon when you have no real reason to make such an assumption.


I'll just point to the smaller fleet of Republic military vessels that was turned back from Federation space a few weeks before Colelie. While that incursion didn't end in shooting, it certainly counts as an incident.

Intriguingly, the Minmatar Tribal Council formally apologized to the Federation afterwards.

Katarina Musana wrote:
We had Naglfars parked in blaster-range of Moroses. It'd be easier to win a knife fight with an unloaded gun than to win that fight.


So you're saying, like Cipher7, it was a symbolic gesture? Cold comfort to the family and friends of the tens of thousands of Federation dead.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2013-07-30 14:57:54 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:
Quote:
This is, in my opinion, a fantastic idea and I wholeheartedly agree. Seriously.


Except for the simple fact that, from a strategic standpoint, it is likely a horrible idea, as the State doesn't have the strength or resources to aid us against the Amarr while still being enemies of the Federation, nor do they share a common enemy in the Empire the way the Federation and the Republic do.

Alliances are born more out of convenience than actual likeness of thought or culture or even honor.


This is the best part.

I'm still looking, honestly, for the benefit that this alliance brings to the Federation. I mean really. We have an ally who has never materially aided the Federation. Who engages in military actions that both directly and indirectly harm the Federation (part of the reason the State was able to bring a titan into Luminaire is the collapse of CONCORD infrastructure following the attack on CONCORD in Yulai). Who displays a propensity to completely disregard the concepts of sovereignty by bringing warfleets on multiple occasions into Federation territory. Who fires upon defending Federation forces, killing tens of thousands of Federation soldiers.

Honestly, this alliance falling would be a horrible thing for the Republic. The Federation, I think, would come out of it just fine.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#88 - 2013-08-01 22:21:37 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Katarina Musana wrote:

Again, I would note that you have no more evidence of this not being an isolated incident than of it being an isolated incident. In fact, the lack of a pattern gives credence to the idea that it is an isolated incident.

That said, I would not fault the Federation at all for remaining wary, but what you are calling for is to flat out assume it will happen again and will happen soon when you have no real reason to make such an assumption.


I'll just point to the smaller fleet of Republic military vessels that was turned back from Federation space a few weeks before Colelie. While that incursion didn't end in shooting, it certainly counts as an incident.

Intriguingly, the Minmatar Tribal Council formally apologized to the Federation afterwards.


The fact that the Tribal Council has not commented is one of the reasons I wonder if there's something of strategic importance that keeps them quiet, something that may also justify the incursion.

Quote:
So you're saying, like Cipher7, it was a symbolic gesture? Cold comfort to the family and friends of the tens of thousands of Federation dead.


Not in the way Cipher7 seemed to think.

I question whether or not the Republic Fleet actually expected that they would need to fight, that they had fully expected the Federation Navy to submit and withdraw. But when the Federation Navy refused to stand down and as such called the bluff, I think the Fleet was told they had to fight it.

Quote:
Honestly, this alliance falling would be a horrible thing for the Republic. The Federation, I think, would come out of it just fine.


And I still maintain that you are being shortsighted. You may not recognize the benefit the Federation receives from the alliance, but that doesn't mean that it isn't there.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#89 - 2013-08-01 22:40:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Surely if the benefits exist you can simply point them out rather than going "You need us, we can't really explain why but despite everything that's happened... erm... you need us!"

Then it's really a matter of do such benefits outweigh the ever increasing downsides in this abusive relationship. First it was complaints and badmouthing, then insults and demeaning comments about how you'd be better off with that nice young Caldari man who lives across the way. Now, it's turned violent because you can't always get what you want.


Those must be some pretty impressive benefits to be worth putting up with that bullshit.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#90 - 2013-08-02 03:45:44 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Surely if the benefits exist you can simply point them out rather than going "You need us, we can't really explain why but despite everything that's happened... erm... you need us!"

Then it's really a matter of do such benefits outweigh the ever increasing downsides in this abusive relationship. First it was complaints and badmouthing, then insults and demeaning comments about how you'd be better off with that nice young Caldari man who lives across the way. Now, it's turned violent because you can't always get what you want.


Those must be some pretty impressive benefits to be worth putting up with that bullshit.



It's a shame you have no idea what you're talking about. But keep falling back on that tired and flawed analogy all you want.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#91 - 2013-08-02 04:35:07 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:
I question whether or not the Republic Fleet actually expected that they would need to fight, that they had fully expected the Federation Navy to submit and withdraw. But when the Federation Navy refused to stand down and as such called the bluff, I think the Fleet was told they had to fight it.


Translation: "I question whether or not the Republic Fleet (or whoever was calling the shots) is absolutely ****ing stupid, thinking that upon jumping a large number of dreadnaughts into an ally's territory and making threats, that said ally would just bend over and take it."

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#92 - 2013-08-02 04:42:45 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Surely if the benefits exist you can simply point them out rather than going "You need us, we can't really explain why but despite everything that's happened... erm... you need us!"

Then it's really a matter of do such benefits outweigh the ever increasing downsides in this abusive relationship. First it was complaints and badmouthing, then insults and demeaning comments about how you'd be better off with that nice young Caldari man who lives across the way. Now, it's turned violent because you can't always get what you want.


Those must be some pretty impressive benefits to be worth putting up with that bullshit.



It's a shame you have no idea what you're talking about. But keep falling back on that tired and flawed analogy all you want.


You know, if you're going to tell someone they're wrong, you should at least try to explain why.

Well, assuming you actually have something, and you're not just trying to throw words out there to save face for the fact you lack an actual point.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#93 - 2013-08-06 16:56:01 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Katarina Musana wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Surely if the benefits exist you can simply point them out rather than going "You need us, we can't really explain why but despite everything that's happened... erm... you need us!"

Then it's really a matter of do such benefits outweigh the ever increasing downsides in this abusive relationship. First it was complaints and badmouthing, then insults and demeaning comments about how you'd be better off with that nice young Caldari man who lives across the way. Now, it's turned violent because you can't always get what you want.


Those must be some pretty impressive benefits to be worth putting up with that bullshit.



It's a shame you have no idea what you're talking about. But keep falling back on that tired and flawed analogy all you want.


You know, if you're going to tell someone they're wrong, you should at least try to explain why.

Well, assuming you actually have something, and you're not just trying to throw words out there to save face for the fact you lack an actual point.



I've explained what's wrong with that analogy on numerous occasions. It's not my fault if you fail to read or keep up with the conversation.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#94 - 2013-08-06 17:41:59 UTC
Some of you in this thread need to climb down from your high horses before you get a nosebleed or altitude sickness. Seriously.

Look, all of our respective governments have made some pretty egregious errors. Errors that, unfortunately, have cost lives. All the empires and outlaw factions have blood on their hands. None of them are perfect, blameless or pure. The Republic Fleet did something that was illegal, counterproductive and downright stupid. Most of us Matari loyalists have already stipulated that. If I was in charge of the Fleet those ships would have never been deployed. Sadly, I wasn't consulted and what happened, happened. We can't alter the time/space continuum to change events.

It would be great if the Shakor government would issue an apology, a statement or, something stating why they undertook the actions they did but, that doesn't appear to be forthcoming. So, can we all just agree that one of the great empires (yet again) did a dumb thing, look for ways to repair strained relations and, for the love of the gods, drop this pointless bickering?

Or, continue on and when the next scandal involving your nation breaks expect to be treated as we Matari are being treated now.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#95 - 2013-08-06 17:51:18 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
So, can we all just agree that one of the great empires (yet again) did a dumb thing


I think the fundamental misunderstanding here is the Republic supporters keep trying to push it off as a 'dumb thing' while the Federation supporters take invasion and destruction of life and properly more seriously.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#96 - 2013-08-06 18:15:35 UTC
Of the two, the Republic supporters are right. Invasion, destruction of life and property can indeed be a dumb thing, and in this case was.

The fact that it was a dumb thing increases the tragedy, rather than diminishing it. Which is why the steps need to be taken to ensure that said dumb thing doesn't happen again, and first step of that is for Federation supporters to not suddenly start giving the Matari the cold shoulder and justify a burgeoning sense of resentment.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#97 - 2013-08-06 18:22:35 UTC
Wow, way to totally miss everything I said Polevhia. I suppose the sentence where I stated the invasion was illegal and counterproductive just happened to escape your reading, huh? Or the part where I stated that it was an egregious error that cost lives?

Tell you what, toaster; when your master apologizes for the billions that he's kidnapped and enslaved then, and only then, do you get to cast stones. In the meantime, back underneath your bridge.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#98 - 2013-08-06 19:32:07 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Some of you in this thread need to climb down from your high horses before you get a nosebleed or altitude sickness. Seriously.

Look, all of our respective governments have made some pretty egregious errors. Errors that, unfortunately, have cost lives. All the empires and outlaw factions have blood on their hands. None of them are perfect, blameless or pure. The Republic Fleet did something that was illegal, counterproductive and downright stupid. Most of us Matari loyalists have already stipulated that. If I was in charge of the Fleet those ships would have never been deployed. Sadly, I wasn't consulted and what happened, happened. We can't alter the time/space continuum to change events.

It would be great if the Shakor government would issue an apology, a statement or, something stating why they undertook the actions they did but, that doesn't appear to be forthcoming. So, can we all just agree that one of the great empires (yet again) did a dumb thing, look for ways to repair strained relations and, for the love of the gods, drop this pointless bickering?

Or, continue on and when the next scandal involving your nation breaks expect to be treated as we Matari are being treated now.


Well, I for one am happy. This is literally all I wanted to hear from someone on the Republic side of the fence - third paragraph in particular. Thank you, Ms Rella. I'm done here.

Contrary to what my race, allegiance and arguments might indicate, I'm not hostile to the Matari people or the pilots of Electus Matari. I still question a lot of the arguments made about why Colelie happened, but an acknowledgement that Shakor's administration dropped the ball, and hasn't done a damn thing in acknowledgement one way or the other is all I really wanted.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2013-08-06 22:55:04 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
The fact that it was a dumb thing increases the tragedy, rather than diminishing it. Which is why the steps need to be taken to ensure that said dumb thing doesn't happen again, and first step of that is for Federation supporters to not suddenly start giving the Matari the cold shoulder and justify a burgeoning sense of resentment.


Oh, I completely agree with you that steps must be taken to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again. I disagree with your statement of how that should happen, but I agree that steps must be taken.

And c'mon, please. Let's drop the regressive racial monikers, shall we? We're not talking about something the Matari did, we're talking about something the Republic did. Cartel Matari, Federation Matari, Amarrian Matari slaves and the Ammatar are all Matari, after all.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)