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Lag, TiDi, 6-VT and you...

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Indica Dominant
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#341 - 2013-08-03 09:50:44 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
I don't get it.


So you flew down there for no better reason than to **** on someone else's parade and when it didn't work out perfectly the way you planned so you decided it was broken... yeah that makes sense. Its too bad you didn't try to do this 2-3 years ago when the servers response to more then 400 people trying to fight in a system was 12-24 hours of black screen for the pilots involved I would have loved to read your cry baby response to that.
Liltha
Lost My Way Enterprises
#342 - 2013-08-04 05:00:21 UTC
Lag is when you spend 10 server cycles waiting for the game to notice you pressed F1 while your opponent gets 10 cycles of fire on you because his command got processed and yours did not.

TiDi is when you both get 1 10second cycle of fire on each other because you both got processed this cycle instead.

I know we have come as gamers to equate all slow downs with lag, but they aren't always the same thing. I'm sure you've played a game before where lag has made your character invincible because no one else's fire registers on you. Or where you shot an entire clip/mag of ammo into someone to see them still be at full health. That is the sort of stuff that happens under lag conditions, not "everyone's weapons took 1 minute to start firing, but once they did it had predictable results."

TiDi may not be the most elegant solution, but having played games in the past that attempted to cram large numbers of enemies into the same area with cripplingly bad results, it's still a much better solution that only stands to get better in time.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#343 - 2013-08-04 06:01:27 UTC
Indica Dominant wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
I don't get it.

So you flew down there for no better reason than to **** on someone else's parade and when it didn't work out perfectly the way you planned so you decided it was broken... yeah that makes sense. Its too bad you didn't try to do this 2-3 years ago when the servers response to more then 400 people trying to fight in a system was 12-24 hours of black screen for the pilots involved I would have loved to read your cry baby response to that.

EVE Online is pretty harsh.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#344 - 2013-08-04 08:50:58 UTC
Tron 3K wrote:

If people don't complain or question things, nothing will ever change so to you guys THE SOLUTION is TiDi. Granted sometimes complaining or questioning won't change anything or help move things along in any way but I'd rather be in the group hoping for things to change than those that like the stagnant way it is now and just call it good.


TiDi isn't a "SOLUTION" to lag and I don't think anyone has ever claimed it was.

It's a way of mitigating the effects of lag.

It doesn't preclude work happening to continually reduce lag, and CCP have kept working on it. And since they started getting serious about fighting lag back in... late 2010, was it? 2011? a lot of progress has been made. Team Gridlock identified a number of bottlenecks, and they have in fact delivered massively improved performance totally apart from introducing the TiDi mechanism.

But by nature of things, the "easy wins" have been won and what remains now will likely be the projects that take much longer to deliver performance returns.

Meanwhile, TiDi remains in place to mitigate the effects of lag, because when a fight really matters people will bring everything they possibly can.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#345 - 2013-08-04 11:23:20 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Tron 3K wrote:

If people don't complain or question things, nothing will ever change so to you guys THE SOLUTION is TiDi. Granted sometimes complaining or questioning won't change anything or help move things along in any way but I'd rather be in the group hoping for things to change than those that like the stagnant way it is now and just call it good.


TiDi isn't a "SOLUTION" to lag and I don't think anyone has ever claimed it was.

It's a way of mitigating the effects of lag.

It doesn't preclude work happening to continually reduce lag, and CCP have kept working on it. And since they started getting serious about fighting lag back in... late 2010, was it? 2011? a lot of progress has been made. Team Gridlock identified a number of bottlenecks, and they have in fact delivered massively improved performance totally apart from introducing the TiDi mechanism.

But by nature of things, the "easy wins" have been won and what remains now will likely be the projects that take much longer to deliver performance returns.

Meanwhile, TiDi remains in place to mitigate the effects of lag, because when a fight really matters people will bring everything they possibly can.

btw malc, can you use your magical CSM power conduit directly linked to CCP and ask what happened with Infiniband project?

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#346 - 2013-08-04 11:35:11 UTC
A guy which heard some stuff about how computers work writes a blog to educate everyone about his "not so informed" opinion on a graceful degradation mechanic he obviously doesn't understands provokes a 18 page thread? You all bored?
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#347 - 2013-08-04 11:41:32 UTC
Karak Terrel wrote:
A guy which heard some stuff about how computers work writes a blog to educate everyone about his "not so informed" opinion on a graceful degradation mechanic he obviously doesn't understands provokes a 18 page thread? You all bored?

it's, supposedly, the middle of summer and in some places of this world it doesn't feel like the summer it should be, so yes, we bored.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Xavier Higdon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#348 - 2013-08-04 12:06:30 UTC
Karak Terrel wrote:
A guy which heard some stuff about how computers work writes a blog to educate everyone about his "not so informed" opinion on a graceful degradation mechanic he obviously doesn't understands provokes a 18 page thread? You all bored?


If you allow the ignorant to believe they're experts we all suffer. Reminding them that they don't actually know everything is a public service. We're morally obligated to stand up and defend knowledge any time it comes under attack.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#349 - 2013-08-04 22:22:28 UTC
Xavier Higdon wrote:
Karak Terrel wrote:
A guy which heard some stuff about how computers work writes a blog to educate everyone about his "not so informed" opinion on a graceful degradation mechanic he obviously doesn't understands provokes a 18 page thread? You all bored?

If you allow the ignorant to believe they're experts we all suffer. Reminding them that they don't actually know everything is a public service. We're morally obligated to stand up and defend knowledge any time it comes under attack.

Don't bother, some people just want to watch the universe burn.

EVE Online: Inferno

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#350 - 2013-08-06 14:48:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Karak Terrel wrote:
A guy which heard some stuff about how computers work writes a blog to educate everyone about his "not so informed" opinion on a graceful degradation mechanic he obviously doesn't understands provokes a 18 page thread? You all bored?

Actually its others that went off the deep end chasing technical red herrings....

My sole and remaining point is the contrast of CCP marketing EvE with 'single shard' and 'massive fleet battles' as core to their new player acquisition marketing, while failing to deliver on said large fleet battles.

But the fights 'happened' didn't they? How did they fail?

Large fleet fights SUCK.

CCP may have used TiDi as a very clever rope to pull people out of disconnect hell, but that was only to give them TiDi purgatory. I was marketed spaceship heaven with 'one universe' and 'massive fleet' battles, no mention of wrapped-in-molasses purgatory given.

Just ask Jesus, there is NO TiDi in heaven...

Would you like to know more?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#351 - 2013-08-06 15:46:12 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Xavier Higdon wrote:
Karak Terrel wrote:
A guy which heard some stuff about how computers work writes a blog to educate everyone about his "not so informed" opinion on a graceful degradation mechanic he obviously doesn't understands provokes a 18 page thread? You all bored?

If you allow the ignorant to believe they're experts we all suffer. Reminding them that they don't actually know everything is a public service. We're morally obligated to stand up and defend knowledge any time it comes under attack.

Don't bother, some people just want to watch the universe burn.

EVE Online: Inferno


That was over a year ago IIRC.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#352 - 2013-08-06 15:49:28 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Xavier Higdon wrote:
Karak Terrel wrote:
A guy which heard some stuff about how computers work writes a blog to educate everyone about his "not so informed" opinion on a graceful degradation mechanic he obviously doesn't understands provokes a 18 page thread? You all bored?

If you allow the ignorant to believe they're experts we all suffer. Reminding them that they don't actually know everything is a public service. We're morally obligated to stand up and defend knowledge any time it comes under attack.

Don't bother, some people just want to watch the universe burn.

EVE Online: Inferno


That was over a year ago IIRC.

Some fires are harder to start. Anyone got a flint & steel..?
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#353 - 2013-08-06 15:59:16 UTC
If you're going to hold out for perfection, you'll still be waiting when the last ember of the last star evaporates.

It works. And will continue to work. The problem isn't that the hardware isn't up to the task, the problem is that the players will inevitably push the hardware to its limits. Give them a server capable of handling a ten-thousand-versus-ten-thousand megabattle in real-time without issue, and both sides will bring twenty thousand.

The OP is an idiot.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#354 - 2013-08-06 16:04:38 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
If you're going to hold out for perfection, you'll still be waiting when the last ember of the last star evaporates.

It works. And will continue to work. The problem isn't that the hardware isn't up to the task, the problem is that the players will inevitably push the hardware to its limits. Give them a server capable of handling a ten-thousand-versus-ten-thousand megabattle in real-time without issue, and both sides will bring twenty thousand.

The OP is an idiot.

We will blob all the newbies at you.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#355 - 2013-08-06 16:34:29 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

...
It works. And will continue to work.
...

Would you like to know more?
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#356 - 2013-08-06 16:45:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Works: Verb. Functioning as intended. Does what it is supposed to do.

What TiDi is supposed to do is make fleet fights happen at all.

Its function is NOT to make them happen perfectly, nor to open a door to the happy sunshine sparkle land of cake and panties where everything meets your unrealistic expectations. It's job is just to make sure that you don't stare at a black screen for two hours and then find out you were podded within the first 20 seconds. .

In this regard, it works perfectly. If you think it's there to do anything else, you've completely missed the point

OP continues to demonstrate his idiocy.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#357 - 2013-08-06 16:47:23 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Works: Verb. Functioning as intended. Does what it is supposed to do.

What TiDi is supposed to do is make fleet fights fair. It's supposed to allow them to happen at all.

Its function is NOT to make them happen perfectly, nor to open a door to the happy sunshine sparkle land of cake and panties where everything meets your unrealistic expectations. It's job is just to make sure that you don't stare at a black screen for two hours and then find out you were podded within the first 20 seconds. .

In this regard, it works perfectly. If you think it's there to do anything else, you've completely missed the point

OP continues to demonstrate his idiocy.

Idiocy is a virtue. Retardation is a duty. GSF will fall before the might of N3. VFK by September.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#358 - 2013-08-06 16:48:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Idiocy is a luxury, certainly. I emphatically disagree that it's a virtue.

Also, why are you shouting this crap at me? My corp are empire-based industrialists. I don't give an enormous wobbly fat butt-cheek what's going on in GSF and VFK or wherever.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Damoraath Sponge
Mother Cluckers
The Wormhole Police
#359 - 2013-08-06 16:58:12 UTC
Allow me to chime in here to the OP.

I come from a background in FPS games, other MMO's and usually always PVP oriented gaming. Having said that, I am personally fairly new to EVE, as standards go.

What I'd like to say is this... Having experienced lag and such in virtually EVERY other game I played, and one of the last ones literally being set up so poorly, that if you had the better computer and connection, you were guaranteed a win... When I first heard about TiDi, I was honestly intrigued... So, I did a little reading on it and thought it was actually a pretty smart move. I have experienced it a few times now. And, yeah... it can be irritating. But it does HUGELY help put all parties in a conflict on a fairly level playing field.

It means that, since things are slowed down, my hypothetical player who's living in his mom's basement on an archaic 56k modem could in theory still participate in PVP without the fear of running into the guy on a T1 connection and losing not because of skill, but simply because his computer couldn't tell the server quick enough that he was better.

I think over-all the TiDi system makes this game more enjoyable to more people if they'd only realize what it's doing. Personally I commend CCP for implementing it.

Can it be irritating? Sure. Could there be something better out there? Maybe. I don't know as I'm not a Computer guy. But, do I think this solution puts more PVPers on a fairer playing field? ABSOLUTELY.

*NOTE* Myself I run a quad-core processor with a 2 TB HDD, and Fiber-Op internet speeds.... Lag's not usually an issue for me, but I know what it felt like when it was.

A true outlaw finds the balance between the passion in his heart, and the reason in his mind...  The outcome is the balance of might and right.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#360 - 2013-08-07 14:20:37 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

...
In this regard, it (TiDi) works perfectly. If you think it's there to do anything else, you've completely missed the point

OP continues to demonstrate his idiocy.

No, you've missed my point, and I would argue that like other EvE Stokholm-syndrome sufferers in this thread deliberately so.

My point remains simply thus. There is a huge disconnect between the messaging around 'massive fleet battles' in EvE on the forums, on blogs, podcasts and in the media -- and the fact said large battles actually SUCK gameplay wise, and suck pretty hard...

Irregardless of TiDi, #SuperComputerAwesomeness or things being 'better than they were before' -- the 'massive fleet battle' of EvE online is a LIE.

You will never convince me that pushing my warp-to button and waiting 45 minutes to land is realtime gameplay anymore, EvE with TiDi effectively turns regions of space into a localized turn-based MMO. This is in direct contravention of the expectation set in a new subscribers mind who has been sold 'single shard', 'one universe'...

Now if people insist on measuring compelling gameplay solely based on 'number of ships killed' or 'number of ships in system' during these big fights, then that's their business...

I however as an objective observer who flew down to 6-VDT for his first ever 'massive fleet battle' experience discovered that one of the core premises of EvE's 'single shard' 'one universe' is actually a lie.

Would you like to know more?