Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Part of the problem with EVE and design choices is that too many choices are made based on worst case scenarios. The majority of people are going to put this to good, practical use. You're not solving some power projection/travel time problem by limiting the amount of time improvement on this new skill. I can "jump clone" anywhere by resetting my med clone and self destructing. It's going to cost me a clone upgrade, but if jumping around is so damn powerful, 10 mil to 15mil isn't any kind of deterrent AND you guys just buffed that by lowering the cost of clones.

This wasn't what i thought I was voting for in the reasonable things thread. I thought I was voting for a significant change, not a tweak and another week of training time.

Am disappoint.

It's not only an issue of travel. The 24 hour timer doesn't fit because it seems to say that you should be able to jump once a day, but in practice it's often more like every other day. Just because we want it to actually be once a day does not mean we want substantially more freedom in clone jumping overall.

I agree that most people will be using it to move clones for an activity, not for travel, but we don't want that to not come with cost. It is not the goal that everyone will be able to be in the ideal implant set for any activity at any time. We are happy with the cost (risk/time loss/travel) and decision making associated with clone jumping and don't want to eliminate that with this change.

mmm.... give hacking sites something worth getting

Dunno everybody seems to be strip mining every site just after downtime.

You do know they respawn, right?

It could be a 1x training time skill and it'd still be a time sink. It's a wasteful use of training time to improve a recognized quality-of-life issue. It's not really the time per se. It's the point: there's no reason this needs to be done via training.

Thanks for this. I like the concept but 2 hours per level would be better. I'm not sure one hour accomplishes much overall.

Wow, a dev comment that kind of seems directed at me! A first! Thanks. Sorry for sounding annoyed, but I was grinning like an idiot when I saw that changes were coming and then disappointed by the reality.

There is obviously an expectation gap here. You've made it clear this is as far as the changes are ever likely to go, and it's equally clear that most players want to go further. Perhaps there needs to be a slightly expanded conversation where the design side makes it clear what they're trying to avoid or what it is that jump cloning is really intended for. And the players need to make clear what they use it for. I get that one jump per day is what the expectation is and that this fix is supposed to do a better job of guaranteeing that. What I don't get is why more than once a day is a bad thing.

As I mentioned before, I can jump whenever I want using a med clone. I'm limited only by office location and the location of the nearest medical facilities. In the case of sov stations, both are always present and therefore aren't a barrier. I pay for my clone upgrade and I'm done. In hisec, unless I'm decced or flagged, it's also no barrier. I can risk my pod to jump a few gates to a med facility if there isn't one in my office station. Losec is pretty much the same. NPC nosec ups the danger because of bubbles, and so isn't ideal for this usage. To tally, that's ony one real barrier in all scenarios and it only applies if my office station doesn't have med clone facilities. The only other issue is implants, but many people aren't wearing them anyway since they're going to get podded. The best part of this method of travel is that ONE alt with renter permissions can act as a "cyno" by getting to a station and opening an office. Everyone else can come in by med clone. Bonus points if that character is also an actual cyno, so he can bring in the equipment by carrier or JF. An entire fleet can avoid a long, potentially disastrous trip on the back of ONE pilot. If there is some sort of travel or power projection issue with jumping around, it would appear that this methodology is vastly more powerful and useful than pure jump cloning. BTW, did I mention that you don't actually need an office for this technique? HQ's ftw!

In the case of jump cloning for travel purposes, you give up the costs of upgrades and the annoyance of no implants for the timer and limitation of targets to jump to. It's biggest limitation is actually the requirement that you "preset" yourself to your target location in advance of any actual jump. In other words, you work backwards from your target instead of forward in the med clone scenario. The one biggest difference though, is that two ship types can serve as target points for a jump. I can see that some people would potentially have an issue with this. Instead of some "bridge back" scenario where a titan bridges podded characters from their home system back into the fight, they jump clone back and avoid the need for bridges and the costs and overhead associated with running a titan logistics chain. In the current system, they can only do this once (assuming the target titan has clone mods). But even if the timer was set to 12hrs, no fight has ever lasted that long. And since med clone jumping is an option, anything a player MIGHT do with a jump clone and a shorter timer, they can already do it with a combination of the two methods. And if the titan/rorq issue is a serious concern, nerf the clone mod, not jump clones.

This is all to say: reducing the timer is a convenience issue, not some bigger design issue, at least from my vantage point. So what am I missing here? What's the issue with lowering the timers further?

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IMO, this is all on the right track. HOWEVER, one other change currently faring well in the reasonable things vote is the removal of attribute implants pared with add +5 to all player attributes. I am completely in favor of this change, and I think it would fit perfectly with the jump clone timer skill, because 1) it would remove the need for people to jump into a learning character with all +5s when they are not PVPing, which is one of the main reasons people in this thread have wanted a very short jump clone timer (e.g., down to 12 hours), and 2) it would remove some incentive to avoid pvp, thus removing a barrier some have to pvping on many occasions (and the isk sink would be transferred to the increase in people getting their ships exploded!).