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One major problem with removing OGBs.
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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-08-06 14:11:42 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
What? Why can't the small gang have an an on grid booster too?


Because blap.


This point is moot, the OP don't want to be in the evil blobs so he willingly refuse to use number as a force multiplier for himself. His loss. He will get blapped booster or not. According to those people, the blobs are so powerfull it should easyly blap anything anyway so there is no point to keeping a booster off grid.
Myra Faye
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-08-06 14:12:11 UTC
Tune in next week for "I had a lot more ships, why didn't I win? How are you going to fix this, CCP?"
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#23 - 2013-08-06 14:13:58 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
Then there's always solo PvP where you are one person flying one spaceship.


I don't understand. Are you referring to PVE?


You should try PvP in lowsec, flying frigates sometime. Just for kicks, head into the smaller Faction Warfare sites. You can, in fact, find PvP that involves just your ship and one other ship. Of course you have to be quick and/or tricky about it, since more often than not the other guy will flee the moment something more dangerous than an NPC appears on D-scan.

You clearly have no idea how PvP works. As super-seasoned pro solo/small-gang PvPers in FW lowsec, both Kahega and I can attest to the fact there are literally no things to fight other than 100-man super-boosted blobs with remote reps and Falcon support.

This is why CCP shouldn't nerf my solo OGB alts. Cry

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#24 - 2013-08-06 14:16:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
You should try PvP in lowsec, flying frigates sometime. Just for kicks, head into the smaller Faction Warfare sites. You can, in fact, find PvP that involves just your ship and one other ship. Of course you have to be quick and/or tricky about it, since more often than not the other guy will flee the moment something more dangerous than an NPC appears on D-scan.


Well yeah, I know about faction warfare; why are you going on about PVE again? The problem arises when a player brings his ship into my plex, not when i myself am dealing with the NPC rats.

And even if I did manage to win such a fight somehow, how do you propose I stop him from warping away without Loki links?
Barkaial Starfinder
Brazilian Vultures
Ferrata Victrix
#25 - 2013-08-06 14:17:56 UTC
So you are in a small gang, saying you don't want to have a ship with links flying with you, but if it's off grid it's okay?

Also, you want to win a direct battle against a bigger fleet that has command ships...


I don't see the logic there.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#26 - 2013-08-06 14:19:07 UTC
I do think there is a point here.

I dont think keeping OGBs is the solution (And I have maxed Loki/Tengu and Legion boosts at my disposal).

There needs to be more boosting ships, and heres how I think they should be, in my opinion;

Post patch we will get.

Claymore; Shield/Skirmish, Relatively fast, good enough speed for nano BC gangs and up.
Vulture; Shield EWAR, Slower, Huge buffer, good for BS gangs, super tanky brawling gangs and slow BC gangs.
Damnation; Armour EWAR, Slower, Huge buffer, good for BS gangs and super tanky brawling comps.
Eos; Armour/Skirmish, Relatively fast, good for faster armour gangs (Deimoses and such).

In addition I think we should have;

Cruiser sized boosters, low DPS to function as good anti-support with a low level racial EWAR bonus (slightly less bonus than a T3 gets, a little more than an EAF gets), tankier ones get around 80-90K EHP with there own tank links active, speedier ones get around 50-60.

Minmatar; Fast (Roughly Huginn speed), decent anti-support boat, range bonus, webbing/painting bonus?, shield and skirmish links.
Caldari; Slower (Roughly Cerb speed), decent anti-support boat, tracking bonus/HAM application bonus, heavier tank, ECM bonus?, Shield and EWAR links.
Amarr; Slower (Roughly Sacri speed), decent anti-support, HAM application bonus, TD Bonus/Nuet bonus?, Armour and EWAR links.
Gallente; Fast (Roughly Deimos speed), decent anti-support, Tracking/Drone bonus, Scram/Point Bonus?, Armour and Skirmish links.

Destroyer sized boosters, little-no DPS, again racial EWAR bonus with slighty less strength than an EAF, tankier ones get around 20-25K EHP with own tank links active, less tanky ones 12-16K EHP.

Minmatar; Fast (Roughly Wolf speed), little-no DPS, Painter bonus, Skirmish/Shield links.
Caldari; Slower (Roughly Hawk speed), little-no DPS, ECM bonus, Shield/EWAR links.
Amarr; Slower (Roughly Vengance speed), little-no DPS, TD Bonus, Armour/EWAR links.
Gallente; Fast (Roughly Ishkur speed), little-no DPS, Damp Bonus, Armour Skirmish links.

Then you have boosters to suit all gang formats, while the other bonuses would make them not a sacrifice in a small gang and enjoyable to fly.

Thats just my opinion though.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#27 - 2013-08-06 14:22:13 UTC
Danny, your idea doesn't work because those boosters require piloting, and are thus not helpful for my pro solo PvP.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-08-06 14:28:20 UTC
Ignoring all the **** posting.

I don't support changes that buff being in blobs. Their numbers already makes them strong, no need to further that.


Either have a reasonable way for boosts to benefit all or remove them from the game.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#29 - 2013-08-06 14:29:27 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
remove them from the game.

/thread

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-08-06 14:30:43 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
What? Why can't the small gang have an an on grid booster too?


Because blap.


This point is moot, the OP don't want to be in the evil blobs so he willingly refuse to use number as a force multiplier for himself. His loss. He will get blapped booster or not. According to those people, the blobs are so powerfull it should easyly blap anything anyway so there is no point to keeping a booster off grid.



If I have 30 ships with ongrid boosters and you have ten with one on grid booster, guess what the priority target is. Eve with god-tanked commands a 10 man gang doesn't have the logi to save that boat. Period.

Forcing boosters on grid does nothing for small gang type stuff. It further favors the blob that has more logi.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-08-06 14:31:50 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
I do think there is a point here.

I dont think keeping OGBs is the solution (And I have maxed Loki/Tengu and Legion boosts at my disposal).

There needs to be more boosting ships, and heres how I think they should be, in my opinion;

Post patch we will get.

Claymore; Shield/Skirmish, Relatively fast, good enough speed for nano BC gangs and up.
Vulture; Shield EWAR, Slower, Huge buffer, good for BS gangs, super tanky brawling gangs and slow BC gangs.
Damnation; Armour EWAR, Slower, Huge buffer, good for BS gangs and super tanky brawling comps.
Eos; Armour/Skirmish, Relatively fast, good for faster armour gangs (Deimoses and such).

In addition I think we should have;

Cruiser sized boosters, low DPS to function as good anti-support with a low level racial EWAR bonus (slightly less bonus than a T3 gets, a little more than an EAF gets), tankier ones get around 80-90K EHP with there own tank links active, speedier ones get around 50-60.

Minmatar; Fast (Roughly Huginn speed), decent anti-support boat, range bonus, webbing/painting bonus?, shield and skirmish links.
Caldari; Slower (Roughly Cerb speed), decent anti-support boat, tracking bonus/HAM application bonus, heavier tank, ECM bonus?, Shield and EWAR links.
Amarr; Slower (Roughly Sacri speed), decent anti-support, HAM application bonus, TD Bonus/Nuet bonus?, Armour and EWAR links.
Gallente; Fast (Roughly Deimos speed), decent anti-support, Tracking/Drone bonus, Scram/Point Bonus?, Armour and Skirmish links.

Destroyer sized boosters, little-no DPS, again racial EWAR bonus with slighty less strength than an EAF, tankier ones get around 20-25K EHP with own tank links active, less tanky ones 12-16K EHP.

Minmatar; Fast (Roughly Wolf speed), little-no DPS, Painter bonus, Skirmish/Shield links.
Caldari; Slower (Roughly Hawk speed), little-no DPS, ECM bonus, Shield/EWAR links.
Amarr; Slower (Roughly Vengance speed), little-no DPS, TD Bonus, Armour/EWAR links.
Gallente; Fast (Roughly Ishkur speed), little-no DPS, Damp Bonus, Armour Skirmish links.

Then you have boosters to suit all gang formats, while the other bonuses would make them not a sacrifice in a small gang and enjoyable to fly.

Thats just my opinion though.



This is a reasonable post. The idea is pretty good too. I don't know about the no-dps part though.

They should do DPS, but they shouldn't be a stronger combat ship than their normal counterpart. So somebody would only fly them for boosting, but not feel worthless in a fight.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#32 - 2013-08-06 14:32:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Diesel47 wrote:
Ignoring all the **** posting.

I don't support changes that buff being in blobs. Their numbers already makes them strong, no need to further that.


Either have a reasonable way for boosts to benefit all or remove them from the game.

Well said. Off-grid boosts require too much ISK and preparation for dumb blobbers to use; I'm a little appalled that CCP is trying to remove a mechanic that is pretty much only ever used to help fight superior numbers. Boosts are one of the few mechanics that is exclusively used by soloers and small gangs and they should stay that way.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#33 - 2013-08-06 14:37:30 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
I do think there is a point here.

I dont think keeping OGBs is the solution (And I have maxed Loki/Tengu and Legion boosts at my disposal).

There needs to be more boosting ships, and heres how I think they should be, in my opinion;

Post patch we will get.

Claymore; Shield/Skirmish, Relatively fast, good enough speed for nano BC gangs and up.
Vulture; Shield EWAR, Slower, Huge buffer, good for BS gangs, super tanky brawling gangs and slow BC gangs.
Damnation; Armour EWAR, Slower, Huge buffer, good for BS gangs and super tanky brawling comps.
Eos; Armour/Skirmish, Relatively fast, good for faster armour gangs (Deimoses and such).

In addition I think we should have;

Cruiser sized boosters, low DPS to function as good anti-support with a low level racial EWAR bonus (slightly less bonus than a T3 gets, a little more than an EAF gets), tankier ones get around 80-90K EHP with there own tank links active, speedier ones get around 50-60.

Minmatar; Fast (Roughly Huginn speed), decent anti-support boat, range bonus, webbing/painting bonus?, shield and skirmish links.
Caldari; Slower (Roughly Cerb speed), decent anti-support boat, tracking bonus/HAM application bonus, heavier tank, ECM bonus?, Shield and EWAR links.
Amarr; Slower (Roughly Sacri speed), decent anti-support, HAM application bonus, TD Bonus/Nuet bonus?, Armour and EWAR links.
Gallente; Fast (Roughly Deimos speed), decent anti-support, Tracking/Drone bonus, Scram/Point Bonus?, Armour and Skirmish links.

Destroyer sized boosters, little-no DPS, again racial EWAR bonus with slighty less strength than an EAF, tankier ones get around 20-25K EHP with own tank links active, less tanky ones 12-16K EHP.

Minmatar; Fast (Roughly Wolf speed), little-no DPS, Painter bonus, Skirmish/Shield links.
Caldari; Slower (Roughly Hawk speed), little-no DPS, ECM bonus, Shield/EWAR links.
Amarr; Slower (Roughly Vengance speed), little-no DPS, TD Bonus, Armour/EWAR links.
Gallente; Fast (Roughly Ishkur speed), little-no DPS, Damp Bonus, Armour Skirmish links.

Then you have boosters to suit all gang formats, while the other bonuses would make them not a sacrifice in a small gang and enjoyable to fly.

Thats just my opinion though.



This is a reasonable post. The idea is pretty good too. I don't know about the no-dps part though.

They should do DPS, but they shouldn't be a stronger combat ship than their normal counterpart. So somebody would only fly them for boosting, but not feel worthless in a fight.


Pmuch, I feel like they should have enough usefullness to feel like its not a sacrifice to bring one over a normal ship while also, more importantly, being fun to fly.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-08-06 14:37:57 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Ignoring all the **** posting.

I don't support changes that buff being in blobs. Their numbers already makes them strong, no need to further that.


Either have a reasonable way for boosts to benefit all or remove them from the game.

Well said. Off-grid boosts require too much ISK and preparation for dumb blobbers to use; I'm a little appalled that CCP is trying to remove a mechanic that is pretty much only ever used to help fight superior numbers. Boosts are one of the few mechanics that is exclusively used by soloers and small gangs and they should stay that way.


About a 4/10 on the troll scale.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-08-06 14:41:07 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
What? Why can't the small gang have an an on grid booster too?


Because blap.


This point is moot, the OP don't want to be in the evil blobs so he willingly refuse to use number as a force multiplier for himself. His loss. He will get blapped booster or not. According to those people, the blobs are so powerfull it should easyly blap anything anyway so there is no point to keeping a booster off grid.



If I have 30 ships with ongrid boosters and you have ten with one on grid booster, guess what the priority target is. Eve with god-tanked commands a 10 man gang doesn't have the logi to save that boat. Period.

Forcing boosters on grid does nothing for small gang type stuff. It further favors the blob that has more logi.


So what? Get more OP friends. If you don't then you are limiting yourself. Why are booster allowed to have efect on a fight while being away from said fight while every other thing interatcing in the fight has to be there? Dosen't that sound broken to you? What if insetad of boost, you could damp your enemy from off grid? Would that be a good idea? What about scramming? Webbing? Reps? ECM?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#36 - 2013-08-06 14:41:49 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Well yeah, I know about faction warfare; why are you going on about PVE again? The problem arises when a player brings his ship into my plex, not when i myself am dealing with the NPC rats.

And even if I did manage to win such a fight somehow, how do you propose I stop him from warping away without Loki links?


Well, if you don't want to jump people in FW plexes (because somehow tainting yourself with the smell of a PvE deadspace is below you), you could try the time honoured tradition of warping from belt to belt advertising where you are going, "meet me in top belt." Then when the other guy brings a fleet instead of a single ship, you warp out because you're intelligent enough to realise that your single frigate can't take on those assault ships and interceptors.

Again, you pick your fight or you lose your fight.

The way to stop people warping out without Loki links is to use the FW site acceleration gates as a filter. Since a Loki can't get into your site, it can't be on grid with you or the target, which means the target won't have to take into consideration the possibility that you are a vexor-sized imicus. They can see that you are flying an imicus and weigh up the performance of their rifter against your ship, decide it's worth the try, then fall flat on their face when it turns out your ship has T2 armour tanking rigs to support the tank of the little ship that is running that scram and web.

When it comes to porting "sov lite" from Faction Warfare to nullsec, this is how "farms and fields" will end up being implemented: filters in place to allow people to pick the types of fights they're interested in fighting.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-08-06 14:43:23 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
What? Why can't the small gang have an an on grid booster too?


Because blap.


This point is moot, the OP don't want to be in the evil blobs so he willingly refuse to use number as a force multiplier for himself. His loss. He will get blapped booster or not. According to those people, the blobs are so powerfull it should easyly blap anything anyway so there is no point to keeping a booster off grid.



If I have 30 ships with ongrid boosters and you have ten with one on grid booster, guess what the priority target is. Eve with god-tanked commands a 10 man gang doesn't have the logi to save that boat. Period.

Forcing boosters on grid does nothing for small gang type stuff. It further favors the blob that has more logi.


So what? Get more OP friends. If you don't then you are limiting yourself. Why are booster allowed to have efect on a fight while being away from said fight while every other thing interatcing in the fight has to be there? Dosen't that sound broken to you? What if insetad of boost, you could damp your enemy from off grid? Would that be a good idea? What about scramming? Webbing? Reps? ECM?



I don't understand half your post, but if you think "get more friends" is the solution then I won't have anything to do with it.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-08-06 14:43:52 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
What? Why can't the small gang have an an on grid booster too?


Because blap.


This point is moot, the OP don't want to be in the evil blobs so he willingly refuse to use number as a force multiplier for himself. His loss. He will get blapped booster or not. According to those people, the blobs are so powerfull it should easyly blap anything anyway so there is no point to keeping a booster off grid.



If I have 30 ships with ongrid boosters and you have ten with one on grid booster, guess what the priority target is. Eve with god-tanked commands a 10 man gang doesn't have the logi to save that boat. Period.

Forcing boosters on grid does nothing for small gang type stuff. It further favors the blob that has more logi.


So what? Get more OP friends. If you don't then you are limiting yourself. Why are booster allowed to have efect on a fight while being away from said fight while every other thing interatcing in the fight has to be there? Dosen't that sound broken to you? What if insetad of boost, you could damp your enemy from off grid? Would that be a good idea? What about scramming? Webbing? Reps? ECM?



You see my allaince? You can be pretty sure whenever we roll we have full boosts.

......how about you sub 20 man gang?
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#39 - 2013-08-06 14:47:18 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
What? Why can't the small gang have an an on grid booster too?


Because blap.


This point is moot, the OP don't want to be in the evil blobs so he willingly refuse to use number as a force multiplier for himself. His loss. He will get blapped booster or not. According to those people, the blobs are so powerfull it should easyly blap anything anyway so there is no point to keeping a booster off grid.



If I have 30 ships with ongrid boosters and you have ten with one on grid booster, guess what the priority target is. Eve with god-tanked commands a 10 man gang doesn't have the logi to save that boat. Period.

Forcing boosters on grid does nothing for small gang type stuff. It further favors the blob that has more logi.



I haven't put any real thought into this but, what if small gang command ships warp to 100 of a guy who warps to 100 of a main fleet, like a blackbird or something. So he'd be at least 200 off the main fleet and the enemy would have to be sniper fit, have a prober or start burning for the command ship, which could then warp off and reposition?

I realize this does nothing if the small gang jumps into a fleet on the other side of the gate, but I thought command ships did pretty crap dps anyway so why not try to keep them on grid but out of range as much as possible?

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-08-06 14:54:14 UTC
Onictus wrote:



You see my allaince? You can be pretty sure whenever we roll we have full boosts.

......how about you sub 20 man gang?


Yes I saw your alliance and it does not change my point. If you don't want to fly with many people, you should face the fact that you will have less ships with you to provide any type of assistance. Solo/small gang/large fleet, noone should be able to have an influence on a battle unless they are there on grid in the thick of it.