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[Odyssey 1.1] Jump Clone skills *Updated with Advanced Infomorph Psychology*

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Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#281 - 2013-08-06 12:16:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Rainbow Prism Colorblind wrote:
I need to put in my 2 cent on this topic.

I see a lot of people complain that they need to jump every 12hr or so.
A lot of you also saying you want to JC into same station without a timer.

Mostly of witch the reason you want it is to be 'safe' or not 'risk' anything.
This is eve, the game is about Money and power.

A game without risk get dull an boring, also what about all gate campers?
they like to play the game as well in there own way.

Equal much are the gate buster groups, both would be affected with to much change in time.

Making JC time down to 19h is good enough, even that is quite powerful to bypass gate camps
or Blockades operations.

Oh and for people who complain it takes 40 jumps throw HS to get to the fun stuff,
ever considering Driving throw Low-sec/null to reduce it to 10?

or get a Bypass rout throw a WH system?

My point here is this! the game need risk!, it is space, its deadly, and everyone is after to skinn you wallet dry!

That is how the game should be.

Thank you.


I think you've focused on a very small group of people here and most people who use JC's don't do it for the "Risk Free Travel" but simply because what they want to do that day requires different implants and so they jump out of their "Current\Training\Whatever They Were Doing The Day Before Clone" and into their "Combat\Logi\Industrial\Scout\Gimp-in-a-Suit" clone.

Right tool for the right job and all that...it's not always about PvP\PvP avoidence you know.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Mag's
Azn Empire
#282 - 2013-08-06 12:24:00 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Rainbow Prism Colorblind wrote:
I need to put in my 2 cent on this topic.

I see a lot of people complain that they need to jump every 12hr or so.
A lot of you also saying you want to JC into same station without a timer.

Mostly of witch the reason you want it is to be 'safe' or not 'risk' anything.
This is eve, the game is about Money and power.

A game without risk get dull an boring, also what about all gate campers?
they like to play the game as well in there own way.

Equal much are the gate buster groups, both would be affected with to much change in time.

Making JC time down to 19h is good enough, even that is quite powerful to bypass gate camps
or Blockades operations.

Oh and for people who complain it takes 40 jumps throw HS to get to the fun stuff,
ever considering Driving throw Low-sec/null to reduce it to 10?

or get a Bypass rout throw a WH system?

My point here is this! the game need risk!, it is space, its deadly, and everyone is after to skinn you wallet dry!

That is how the game should be.

Thank you.


I think you've focused on a very small group of people here and most people who use JC's don't do it for the "Risk Free Travel" but simply because what they want to do that day requires different implants and so they jump out of their "Current\Training\Whatever They Were Doing The Day Before Clone" and into their "Combat\Logi\Industrial\Scout\Gimp-in-a-Suit" clone.

Right tool for the right job and all that...it's not always about PvP\PvP avoidence you know.
Not empty quoting.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Rainbow Prism Colorblind
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#283 - 2013-08-06 12:28:40 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Rainbow Prism Colorblind wrote:
I need to put in my 2 cent on this topic.

I see a lot of people complain that they need to jump every 12hr or so.
A lot of you also saying you want to JC into same station without a timer.

Mostly of witch the reason you want it is to be 'safe' or not 'risk' anything.
This is eve, the game is about Money and power.

A game without risk get dull an boring, also what about all gate campers?
they like to play the game as well in there own way.

Equal much are the gate buster groups, both would be affected with to much change in time.

Making JC time down to 19h is good enough, even that is quite powerful to bypass gate camps
or Blockades operations.

Oh and for people who complain it takes 40 jumps throw HS to get to the fun stuff,
ever considering Driving throw Low-sec/null to reduce it to 10?

or get a Bypass rout throw a WH system?

My point here is this! the game need risk!, it is space, its deadly, and everyone is after to skinn you wallet dry!

That is how the game should be.

Thank you.


I think you've focused on a very small group of people here and most people who use JC's don't do it for the "Risk Free Travel" but simply because what they want to do that day requires different implants and so they jump out of their "Current\Training\Whatever They Were Doing The Day Before Clone" and into their "Combat\Logi\Industrial\Scout\Gimp-in-a-Suit" clone.

Right tool for the right job and all that...it's not always about PvP\PvP avoidence you know.


Like i Said, it is from my point of view, everyone have there own thing but for me, a game should be hard,
so when you actually manage to do something you feel like you made a different and can puff out your chest and say
" I am good!" ^^


Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#284 - 2013-08-06 12:38:37 UTC
Rainbow Prism Colorblind wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:


-snipped the rest as it was getting too long-

I think you've focused on a very small group of people here and most people who use JC's don't do it for the "Risk Free Travel" but simply because what they want to do that day requires different implants and so they jump out of their "Current\Training\Whatever They Were Doing The Day Before Clone" and into their "Combat\Logi\Industrial\Scout\Gimp-in-a-Suit" clone.

Right tool for the right job and all that...it's not always about PvP\PvP avoidence you know.


Like i Said, it is from my point of view, everyone have there own thing but for me, a game should be hard,
so when you actually manage to do something you feel like you made a different and can puff out your chest and say
" I am good!" ^^


I get that but let me put it this way and froma PvP perspective so you can relate: I wouldn't PvP in my Training Clone because...well...you just wouldn't as it's not optimal when you have a JC with Hardwiring\Snake\Slave\WTFIPWNANDWIN Implants in that you can use.

This change encourages more PvP amongst other things and with the same flexibility just at a more appropriate time to the paying customer. It address time-slip which is a big thing.

If you want MOAR PVP NOWZ then you should surely be behind this change?

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Rainbow Prism Colorblind
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#285 - 2013-08-06 12:44:29 UTC


I get that but let me put it this way and froma PvP perspective so you can relate: I wouldn't PvP in my Training Clone because...well...you just wouldn't as it's not optimal when you have a JC with Hardwiring\Snake\Slave\WTFIPWNANDWIN Implants in that you can use.

This change encourages more PvP amongst other things and with the same flexibility just at a more appropriate time to the paying customer. It address time-slip which is a big thing.

If you want MOAR PVP NOWZ then you should surely be behind this change?[/quote]

Witch comes to my point, this game is not a kindergarten.

if you want to train faster you have to risk/lose some to gain something.

and I said I have noting bad to say to the 5hr change, i was more concerned about how many trying to push it to jc every 4hr,
Witch to me is pointless and another dumming down of the eve world.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#286 - 2013-08-06 12:52:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Rainbow Prism Colorblind wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:


I get that but let me put it this way and froma PvP perspective so you can relate: I wouldn't PvP in my Training Clone because...well...you just wouldn't as it's not optimal when you have a JC with Hardwiring\Snake\Slave\WTFIPWNANDWIN Implants in that you can use.

This change encourages more PvP amongst other things and with the same flexibility just at a more appropriate time to the paying customer. It address time-slip which is a big thing.

If you want MOAR PVP NOWZ then you should surely be behind this change?


Witch comes to my point, this game is not a kindergarten.

if you want to train faster you have to risk/lose some to gain something.

and I said I have noting bad to say to the 5hr change, i was more concerned about how many trying to push it to jc every 4hr,
Witch to me is pointless and another dumming down of the eve world.


I agree with you on the JC every 4 hours...that would be ridiculous and so OP. I wouldn't be opposed to a 15\14 hour cooldown but I think anything lower would be tipping to the OP side of life.

I understand this game is not kindergarten, believe me, I've grown with this game and I'm also quite tired of the dumbing down as well but it shouldn't keep pushing the time it takes to do something longer and longer. For instance:

You JC at 1800hrs and the next day you didn't manage to log on until 1805hrs and JC at 1810hrs. Now you can't JC until 1811hrs the next day and if this slippage keeps occurring eventually it will be outside of your "Playtime Window".

This change addresses that and I think it's a good change, not OP but shouldn't be a skill and in the words of Captain Jean Luc Picard "Make it so!".

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Sir John Halsey
#287 - 2013-08-06 12:56:37 UTC
Ehh, is not enough that you can travel all over Eden in hours... let's make this even faster...

A new skill!
And now people are not happy because it is only one hour?

With what we've seen until now (two rounds of changes usually) beg for more, maybe this will go to 5h/level so you can jump clones between two kills.

:rolleyes:
Yarek Asthar
Nargara Sanctum
#288 - 2013-08-06 13:02:42 UTC
Jumping (station A to station B) 20 hs CD.
Swaping (station A to station A) 1 hr CD.
Georgiy Giggle
Senclave
Apocalypse Now.
#289 - 2013-08-06 13:05:01 UTC
Just 1 hour per level?
Imho - silly.

19 instead of 24 if level 5.

Give us 2-3 hours per level, then skill should be useful.

Not mastering proprieties, won't become firmly established. - Confucius
Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#290 - 2013-08-06 13:07:27 UTC
people commenting in here about jumpcloning as a form of risk free travel are morons.

Jump cloning is almost purely used to switch between implant sets depending on what you want to be doing at the time.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#291 - 2013-08-06 13:09:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Georgiy Giggle wrote:
Just 1 hour per level?
Imho - silly.

19 instead of 24 if level 5.

Give us 2-3 hours per level, then skill should be useful.


But that would defeat the very defined goal that the OP contained:

CCP Rise wrote:


The goal here is to avoid situations where jump clone delay pushes jump clone use back a bit each play session until eventually people wind up stranded in the wrong clone during their few hours of play time.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Rainbow Prism Colorblind
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#292 - 2013-08-06 13:12:28 UTC
Nova Satar wrote:
people commenting in here about jumpcloning as a form of risk free travel are morons.

Jump cloning is almost purely used to switch between implant sets depending on what you want to be doing at the time.


Witch in turn make it less risk to just swap around implants at will.

if your not willing to risk the implants don't bother buy them perhaps?
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#293 - 2013-08-06 13:25:08 UTC
After thinking about it some more, 1 hr a level is fine. I'd love to swap clones in station but eh.

Yaay!!!!
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#294 - 2013-08-06 13:33:51 UTC
Rainbow Prism Colorblind wrote:
Nova Satar wrote:
people commenting in here about jumpcloning as a form of risk free travel are morons.

Jump cloning is almost purely used to switch between implant sets depending on what you want to be doing at the time.


Witch in turn make it less risk to just swap around implants at will.

if your not willing to risk the implants don't bother buy them perhaps?


Except that what actually happens is when people are stuck on the cooldown of the wrong clone with the wrong implants, they simply don't play. They don't join their friends on a lowsec roam, or they can't fly their special ship because they're missing that 3% powergrid implant, or they happen to be 40 jumps from anyplace useful and don't want to burn an hour traveling while their friends wait for them.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#295 - 2013-08-06 13:40:25 UTC
Gospadin wrote:
Rainbow Prism Colorblind wrote:
Nova Satar wrote:
people commenting in here about jumpcloning as a form of risk free travel are morons.

Jump cloning is almost purely used to switch between implant sets depending on what you want to be doing at the time.


Witch in turn make it less risk to just swap around implants at will.

if your not willing to risk the implants don't bother buy them perhaps?


Except that what actually happens is when people are stuck on the cooldown of the wrong clone with the wrong implants, they simply don't play. They don't join their friends on a lowsec roam, or they can't fly their special ship because they're missing that 3% powergrid implant, or they happen to be 40 jumps from anyplace useful and don't want to burn an hour traveling while their friends wait for them.


Exactly as Gospadin said. I think I've said all I can say that on this. Final thought: This WILL increase PvP for those that want to engage in it and with it negate the "Risk Free Travel" that "1337 PvPers" seem to be crying about. Would you rather Suicide Gank traveling ships or get down to some PvP Proper where your opponent is prepared and ready for you? I know which I'd prefer and this is just my opinion but I'm leaving this there.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Rainbow Prism Colorblind
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#296 - 2013-08-06 13:43:49 UTC
Gospadin wrote:
Rainbow Prism Colorblind wrote:
Nova Satar wrote:
people commenting in here about jumpcloning as a form of risk free travel are morons.

Jump cloning is almost purely used to switch between implant sets depending on what you want to be doing at the time.


Witch in turn make it less risk to just swap around implants at will.

if your not willing to risk the implants don't bother buy them perhaps?


Except that what actually happens is when people are stuck on the cooldown of the wrong clone with the wrong implants, they simply don't play. They don't join their friends on a lowsec roam, or they can't fly their special ship because they're missing that 3% powergrid implant, or they happen to be 40 jumps from anyplace useful and don't want to burn an hour traveling while their friends wait for them.



That Is why i said 5hr from skill is fine.
But more then that is just pointless greed from lazy people.

Most ops should be announced at lest 24hr in advance, to give you time to get ships/items placed in stage areas etc.
and to give time for jumping. Stressing and jumping had on is never a good idea anyway.

The 5hr delay would be good to keep jumps at a relative same time every day ^^
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#297 - 2013-08-06 13:44:03 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
Update:

We had a chat this morning and will be leaving this as a skill rather than changing the base timer.

There are good points on both sides, and it depends a lot on how you are using jump clones, but because there certainly will be strategic implications for at least some players, we feel that having this as a skill fits well. It is by no means mandatory like the old learning skills, and it is not purely a quality of life change (although that is certainly a large part of the design goal), so it makes sense to have training associated with it.

The skill will be rank 2 and will cost very little so for the players that want to use it there won't be significant barriers.

On a related note: there is some people discussing the drawbacks of making these small adjustments rather than large systemic changes and I must say that we feel really good about small changes in many situations. Systemic changes are important and should never be ignored or delayed because of small tweaks, but when there are very solid improvements available, like this one, we should not put them off because the system as a whole isn't perfect.

Thanks for the feedback

edit: oh and also, we definitely will not be extending the timer any further. The implications related to travel become problematic fairly quickly and we don't want to worsen that situation at all.

@ccp_rise
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#298 - 2013-08-06 13:44:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Regnar
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
If this is for real then this is EXACTLY what I wanted.

Thank you CCP.

The issue described in the OP is the reason why I avoided jumpcloning to join friends on roams when I was in an expensive clone I needed for my operations. With the 19 hours shift I am able to jump back into old clone next day when it's the start of my playtime hours and I don't have to wait 2 days.

I am not asking for more.

19 hours is perfect.
As for the people that want more... They have no reason to ask for it because anything less would basically be safe travel.


The only post I've seen where I can picture Arya Regnar actually smiling as she typed her reply. Smile

Sorry to break it to you but I'm a dude and this is one of my altsLol
You got the smiling part right though.

I was smiling when I typed the reply.

CCP Rise wrote:
Update:

We had a chat this morning and will be leaving this as a skill rather than changing the base timer.

There are good points on both sides, and it depends a lot on how you are using jump clones, but because there certainly will be strategic implications for at least some players, we feel that having this as a skill fits well. It is by no means mandatory like the old learning skills, and it is not purely a quality of life change (although that is certainly a large part of the design goal), so it makes sense to have training associated with it.

The skill will be rank 2 and will cost very little so for the players that want to use it there won't be significant barriers.

On a related note: there is some people discussing the drawbacks of making these small adjustments rather than large systemic changes and I must say that we feel really good about small changes in many situations. Systemic changes are important and should never be ignored or delayed because of small tweaks, but when there are very solid improvements available, like this one, we should not put them off because the system as a whole isn't perfect.

Thanks for the feedback


Don't worry bro you are doing a good job.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#299 - 2013-08-06 13:57:42 UTC
Great, can't wait. So what's next?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#300 - 2013-08-06 14:07:55 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Update:

We had a chat this morning and will be leaving this as a skill rather than changing the base timer.

There are good points on both sides, and it depends a lot on how you are using jump clones, but because there certainly will be strategic implications for at least some players, we feel that having this as a skill fits well. It is by no means mandatory like the old learning skills, and it is not purely a quality of life change (although that is certainly a large part of the design goal), so it makes sense to have training associated with it.

The skill will be rank 2 and will cost very little so for the players that want to use it there won't be significant barriers.

On a related note: there is some people discussing the drawbacks of making these small adjustments rather than large systemic changes and I must say that we feel really good about small changes in many situations. Systemic changes are important and should never be ignored or delayed because of small tweaks, but when there are very solid improvements available, like this one, we should not put them off because the system as a whole isn't perfect.

Thanks for the feedback

edit: oh and also, we definitely will not be extending the timer any further. The implications related to travel become problematic fairly quickly and we don't want to worsen that situation at all.
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