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[Odyssey 1.1] Jump Clone skills *Updated with Advanced Infomorph Psychology*

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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#121 - 2013-08-05 19:20:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
for all those in the "instant travel is bad" camp. Dont forget that every second player has at least one alt. Instant travel already exists - just outside game mechanics. You can't balance it, it is already there and unavoidable.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#122 - 2013-08-05 19:21:20 UTC
2D34DLY4U wrote:
Dierdra Vaal wrote:
I'm also worried that this skill will go the way learning skills went.


This is a bad idea as we are using a mechanic similar to learning skills to solve a gameplay problem. This new skill being introduced will either be meaningless (in its current state) or if you raise the hours/level in an attempt to solve the underlying problem you will create a skill that everyone will need and consequently a barrier to entry in the form of forcing everyone to spend X days training this - the issue, similar to learning skills, is that there is no trade off and no choice being made, its just something you will need to do and therefore not a good game mechanic and just another hurdle that you have to go through in order to play the game.

The problem with jump clones is related to the learning implants that are currently IMO a broken mechanic in the sense that they create a link between long term decision making (what to train) and short term risk/benefit decisions (what to risk in pvp). Implants that give you advantages in pvp are cool since you get the edge from the implants but also risk more with them, so this is working fine. Learning implants on the other hand create a barrier to pvp in the sense that in order to pvp seriously you have to forcefully gimp your ability to develop your skills in the long term, thus creating a barrier for pilots that want to pvp - it is a forced sunk cost that has to be paid for by all pvpers.

The jump clone timer change has implications in terms of travel and mobility, more so if we reduce jump clone delay to 0 (per Reasonable Suggestions vote item) - I don't see a problem with this right now as it's better to have the player jump clone around and keep playing than logoff and wait for a few hours to do whatever he wanted to do, but I am not an expert and there may be situations where this may be abused.

The problem here is the learning implants. Changing the jump clone timer is an elegant way around this problem since although we may see less learning implants being destroyed and less isk sink effect from those implants on one hand, on the other hand giving players flexibility in terms of changing implant sets on the fly may increase their overall use in the game and raise the total amount of implants of any kind being destroyed, thus having a beneficial effect on the market. This on top of allowing players to play the game more, as opposed to forcing them to logoff for hours to get things done...

You know, nobody is forced to use learning implants in any way shape or form. I often go without any jmanrs simply so I can pvp more often. It's a choice/trade off that I make. It's a choice everyone has to make when they consider implants. And so far CCP has not said they want to reduce the risk of you losing your shiny implants. They just want to make it so people who jump clone once a day don't har to wait the next day for their ter to run out. It's really useful for people who often play the same time each day. That's the whole point of this skill. Though I agree, maybe a skill wasn't the best solution.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#123 - 2013-08-05 19:21:24 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
From the all the complaining I can only surmise that people do not want this skill & feature implementing.
I guess they are content with a continuation of the system currently in place.

No. People just want them to fix the problem by… you know… addressing the problem, rather than adding in a pointless one-day skill-training timesink as a half-assed band-aid to the problem.


In your opinion.


in mine too brosef

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
So'Cari
State War Academy
Caldari State
#124 - 2013-08-05 19:21:47 UTC  |  Edited by: So'Cari
Kossaw wrote:
TBH, its a good plan. I like the idea of it being a rank 1 or 2 skill. But with the proposal as it stands right now, why bother training more than skill level 2 or 3. The only thing this propsal aims to do is help prevent players getting stuck outside their regular play hours on a weekday evening.

So this is NOT the solution we have been asking for for a very long time. It's a stop gap solution for a different problem.

So do you think adding a skill is a better solution than just reducing the default timer for everyone?

Edit: It's a common enough point that I expect we'll get Rise/CCP's opinion at some point. It would be good to hear from players though. If you like the skill addition, why is it better than the alternatives, not just better than what we have right now?
Novah Soul
#125 - 2013-08-05 19:24:05 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi Hi

I'm not even in the office today (Icelandic holidays happen approx every other day) but I'm really excited to let you guys know about this, so here you go:

For Odyssey 1.1 we are adding a skill - Informorph Synchronizing - which will lower the time between jumping clones by one hour per level.

The goal here is to avoid situations where jump clone delay pushes jump clone use back a bit each play session until eventually people wind up stranded in the wrong clone during their few hours of play time. We don't want to accelerate the rate that you can jump significantly, we just want to make sure that switching once a day is actually possible.

Maybe I should mention that while there may be plenty of feedback related to jump clones as a whole, this change is simply something very easy to do which will have a very positive affect on player experience. Feedback on large scale plans or changes to jump clones, or clones generally, while totally valid, won't have an effect on 1.1. So, if possible, please focus feedback on this skill specifically.

o/

Looks solid. While I'd rather honestly see it put to a 2-hour per level time reduction, anything is better then what it is now.

A man is known by the quality of his friends. - Lex Luthor
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#126 - 2013-08-05 19:26:28 UTC
This quite reasonable change. People that play few hours a day at roughly same time of day will find this most useful. I'm somewhat concerned this will create additional power projection problems, but few hours shaved on jump timer probably will not make it much worse then it already is. Overall I think this will be net benefit for the game.

Also I support idea to make it a skill instead of just flat adjustment. This is EVE and you don't get something for nothing. If you want this benefit you should have to sacrifice something, even if it is just some SP.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
Rina Kondur
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#127 - 2013-08-05 19:27:34 UTC
Why even bother making this a skill? Seems like something useless that will be required to train now (ie learning skills). Just skip the skill and knock ~5 hours off the timer.
Alexander the Great
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2013-08-05 19:30:23 UTC
I thought it's dev's job to improve our gameplay. Instead you force us to train a skill for it?

I'm seriously tired of temporary solutions for long-living issues instead of full revision.

Do total implants + clones interface rework! Make full drone overhaul not just interface but skills and mechanics! Give us modular POSes instead of small fixes!
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#129 - 2013-08-05 19:33:11 UTC
Rina Kondur wrote:
Why even bother making this a skill? Seems like something useless that will be required to train now (ie learning skills). Just skip the skill and knock ~5 hours off the timer.

Because then it is up to you how much of a buffer you need, rather than an arbitrary decision on CCP's part.

If we followed your logic we could just up all stats for skills by 5 (or whatever the maximum % gain is) and do away with skills altogether.

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Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#130 - 2013-08-05 19:33:45 UTC
Kismeteer wrote:
Please consider raising this bonus to 2 hr per skill level, and maybe increase the 'rank' a bit if you're worried about it being abused. Level 3 would be fine for most casual players, for instance.

1 - 23 hr 22 hr
2 - 22 hr 20 hr
3 - 21 hr 18 hr
4- 20 hr 16 hr
5- 19 hr 14 hr

This prevents people from doing twice per 24 hour period, but makes it easier for those of us who end up with weird play times. The 1.5 mark would also be fine, but makes it hard for people to remember when it's 'up'.


I support this idea. A rank 8 skill would balance this out, I think. Same training time as Battleship 5.

Katrina Oniseki
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#131 - 2013-08-05 19:35:33 UTC
Alexander the Great wrote:
I thought it's dev's job to improve our gameplay. Instead you force us to train a skill for it?

I'm seriously tired of temporary solutions for long-living issues instead of full revision.

Do total implants + clones interface rework! Make full drone overhaul not just interface but skills and mechanics! Give us modular POSes instead of small fixes!

The tying of implants to your current clone is not only sensible, but an important balancing device (and logistical consideration). It is NOT a problem to be overcome.

Stop trying to remove choices in favor of just being handed the best possible circumstances by default.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Palamon
0utbreak
#132 - 2013-08-05 19:38:21 UTC
It's really great to see clone system getting some very much needed attention.

But I am hoping this is just the 'toe in the water'?

How about combining the changes to include some of the excellent suggestions recently posted;

Removing the need to pause training to clone jump.
Having more than one clone in the same station.
Perhaps even a distance based metric that increases the JC timer the further you jump?
Rendiff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2013-08-05 19:40:56 UTC
I would like to see a more substantial reduction. Like to down to 12 hours at level 5. I've had to skip out on a lot of ops over the years because I was stuck or didn't want to get stuck somewhere.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#134 - 2013-08-05 19:41:56 UTC
Kossaw wrote:
TBH, its a good plan. I like the idea of it being a rank 1 or 2 skill. But with the proposal as it stands right now, why bother training more than skill level 2 or 3. The only thing this propsal aims to do is help prevent players getting stuck outside their regular play hours on a weekday evening.

So this is NOT the solution we have been asking for for a very long time. It's a stop gap solution for a different problem.

It seems most people agree that there is a need to prevent mobility around eve simply by Jumping between clones every 5 minutes, and that your choice of implants should matter and have consequences when you want to instantly reship to a new fleet doctrine. And it seems most people agree that Clone jumping should never be more than once in a 12 hour period. So, the simple solution to give everyone what we really want is ...

- Make this ( or an advanced variation ) a higher rank skill so that training L5 takes 30+ days
- Make this ( or an advanced variation ) give a maximum benefit of 12 hours between clone jumps at L5
It shouldn't be ranked anything skill. It's frustrating that CCP clearly identifies a problem--the time creep that JCing creates for "normal" play hours, and yet their solution is to implement a skill for it. Please stop with the worthless skills. You guys see this creates problems, so you know what? Change the default timer. Don't make skills that feel like chores to train. You know what other skills felt like chores? Learning skills.

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Isa Superiora
Bulba Corp
#135 - 2013-08-05 19:42:58 UTC
Jesus Rise, you spoil us. The next thing you know you'll give us a skill to reduce asset delay by 5 seconds.
LujTic
Green Visstick High
#136 - 2013-08-05 19:45:32 UTC
We're allowed to discuss this idea, but I feel we are missing some argumentation behind the proposal. It would be nice if CCP could aid this discussion by giving us more clearity about why they want to make the proposal as it is.

First of all the reason for making it a skills. I have a feeling CCP is adding it as a skill so the veterans don't feel like they are running out of usefull skills to train.
Anther issue is the measily 1 hr reduction. We don't really know why CCP doesn't want to accellerate the rate you can jump significantly. Others have posted their opinion that they feel that jump cloning more often than once a day is bad because it is a (free and easy) form of instant travel. As such they have proposed alternative solutions to that problem. If travel is the problem keeping CCP from making a larger change, then other solutions might be better.
Gnoshia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#137 - 2013-08-05 19:46:29 UTC
Now all we need is one for remapping. Cool
Gnoshia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#138 - 2013-08-05 19:48:29 UTC
Destoya wrote:
Thanks Obam... Rise!


lol

Free stuff!

\o/
MacKael
Perkone
Caldari State
#139 - 2013-08-05 19:51:17 UTC
That's fine and good, but tbh we need 2 clones per level. Instead of a reduced time. Most of us have skills for armor and shield. As well as missiles hybrids projectiles lasers. Etc etc. not to mention cap pilots who need totally separate clones for snake or slaves. The clones we have no are not enough to support our current level of game play.
None ofthe Above
#140 - 2013-08-05 20:15:41 UTC
This is a good change. 24 hours was just a little long.

+1 supported.

I agree with a few folks that -2 hr/level might be better.

I've thought about the introduction of a skill here, it's not so bad. Younger players don't need it so much and it gives an "SP Sink" for older players.

It's not the same thing as adding "must have" combat skills that put older players up on younger which is a dangerous issue.

This will help reduce the feeling of being trapped in either a combat clone or across the map. Increasing PvP since you can swap back to a learning clone if optimized skill training is an issue or get back for a StratOp/CTA for you next session.

Agreed about some concern about buffing free safe travel, that's a bit of a drawback, but I think anything up to -2/hour should be a net benefit for most players.

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