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[Odyssey 1.1] Jump Clone skills *Updated with Advanced Infomorph Psychology*

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Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#101 - 2013-08-05 18:25:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Longinius Spear wrote:
Just wondering, why would moving it down to say every 5 hours be "too much"?

In your opinion.
Because it makes it ridiculously easy to bypass the entire galaxy.
Have you heard of these things called Titans, and jump bridges? Everyone in an alliance seems to have have access to plenty of these. I don't think it should really be a factor in easing the life of smaller entities; small gang/solo players.

CCP, have you looked at the actual numbers, e.g. the average play session of a character that has flown in low/nullsec after jumpcloning, and how that time period after compares to their total logged in time?
Granted this won't account for those put off by the current system, but it might show people JCing before almost every day's play. I know I have done so for periods of high activity.

Also, can you be open about how much you fear mindlinks factor in these mechanics decisions, have you considered making a shorter timer with a condition that you don't have a mindlink in perhaps?
So'Cari
State War Academy
Caldari State
#102 - 2013-08-05 18:25:53 UTC
-1 for the same reason offered by many others:

If you recognise that a 24-hour timer is bad game design, you should implement a direct fix rather than adding a skill which makes the flaw default with an optional fix available for a minor in-game cost. [That the relative cost is highest to newer players just compounds the problem.]

Just set the timer to 19-hours (or whatever) and go from there.

  • Simpler to implement
  • Simpler to adjust and/or remove based on feedback
  • No more costly (as a proportion of SP) for newer players

And if after a short trial you still want to go back to 24-hour default with skill-based reduction, then you can, and nobody will complain about wasted training time or clamor for SP reimbursement.

You could even set it to 21 or 22-hours (i.e. something a little more conservative) RIGHT NOW as an experiment until Odyssey 1.1, and then make a final adjustment or add in the skill-based version when 1.1 launches.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#103 - 2013-08-05 18:26:15 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
This is a great change. People asking for more are just mice wanting milk with their cookie. It's really not a "buff" to gameplay, but more to player experience. Stop being whiners and take a gift for what it is.
Why should there be a skill that improves quality-of-life? The base timer should just be lessened or make a skill like that have some actual game application.



how about 10% reduction in clone jump cooldown for jump clones in same constellation.

this would give you the ability to change from pvp to pve clones twice a day if you stay in the same area. but also limits force projection jump cloning.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#104 - 2013-08-05 18:33:02 UTC
It is a good skill, but i think 1 hour is not enough

Untrained: 24 hours
Level 1: 23
Level 2: 22
Level 3: 21
Level 4: 20
Level 5: 19


Perhaps it should be 2?

Level: 0/1/2/3/4/5
Timer: 24/22/20/18/16/14

Or maybe 3?

Level: 0/1/2/3/4/5
Timer: 24/21/18/15/12/9



I think i like the numbers of 3 - the skill makes a much bigger difference this way, is more effective. Addresses one of the CSM's "little things" items.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
So'Cari
State War Academy
Caldari State
#105 - 2013-08-05 18:34:54 UTC
Denidil wrote:
It is a good skill, but i think 1 hour is not enough

Why do you think it's a good skill compared against just altering the default time for everyone?
HVAC Repairman
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2013-08-05 18:39:14 UTC
allow multiple jump clones in the same station, no time reset for same station jumps (or make it a lot smaller), and no killing of implants because of a jump. please.

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Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
#107 - 2013-08-05 18:40:52 UTC
Replace current mechanism with % of success based on time since last jump:
24 hours since last jump = 100% chance of success
12 hours since last jump = 50% chance success
0 hours since last jump = 0 % chance success

If you really want a new skill then +5% chance of jump success per level.

Failed jumps have varying consequences ranging from failure to jump as best case to implant or clone loss in worst case.

True Eve risk vs reward Twisted

Fear God and Thread Nought
chris1945
Ambivalence Co-operative
#108 - 2013-08-05 18:41:21 UTC  |  Edited by: chris1945
Daneel Trevize wrote:
Honestly, cancel this and do it right. 5 hours isn't right, nor is it being skillpoints based for just that.

The '99 things' initative highlights that many people are happy to see a more complete solution, a separation of the teleportation potential of jump clones with their implant-saving aspect. AFAIK many are willing to have shorter JC timers if they're in the same system/station as the other clone, and understand the power projection potential problems of having the ranged jumps be more frequent. But they also shown that players don't want to be tied to yesterday's start-of-session clone choice the next day, and that's where I feel 5 hours just isn't enough.

A 10hour reduction if in the same system/station sounds much more appealing, more likely to lead to fun options to mix things up for those that have the opportunity to fly various doctrines (remember we still can't use even a fraction of our SP or wealth at once anyway).
Don't make people train or plan to train a skill for this, especially if it's likely to be changed Soon. Almost as bad a 4 racial ECCM skills as a 'fix' for ECM, only hurts the new guys & those hoping for slightly varied session start-times.


Correct.

Also please remove the annoying "kill all implants on jump bug" if you are in the same station.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#109 - 2013-08-05 18:42:59 UTC
So, there are already a lot of comments? But my $.02.

I work full time, and EVE on weekday evenings, and when I'm free on weekends. I usually have a chance at fleet ops in the evenings-- but if I JC back after, I have no chance to live dual carebear/PvP lives for the next day. My guess is that CCP has clocked the average play session/fleet's duration at something like 3 or 4 hours, and think that this'll give people juuust enough flexibility without making things ridiculous.

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Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#110 - 2013-08-05 18:44:23 UTC
From the all the complaining I can only surmise that people do not want this skill & feature implementing.
I guess they are content with a continuation of the system currently in place.
Arec Bardwin
#111 - 2013-08-05 18:46:31 UTC
A decent change, although a very simple one. What would be nice:

- Advanced Infomorph psychology for access to more clones.

- Tiered jumping cooldowns for system-wide clone jumps, region-wide clone jumps and universe-wide clone jumps.

- Ability to swap clones in a WH Rorqual clone vats.

Add needed skills accordingly.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#112 - 2013-08-05 18:48:48 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
From the all the complaining I can only surmise that people do not want this skill & feature implementing.
I guess they are content with a continuation of the system currently in place.

No. People just want them to fix the problem by… you know… addressing the problem, rather than adding in a pointless one-day skill-training timesink as a half-assed band-aid to the problem.
Tenchi Sal
White Knights of Equestria
#113 - 2013-08-05 18:52:59 UTC
5 hours reduction is perfect. most players dont play 23.5/7. someone can come home for work, login, decide they want to do "this thing" today, jump clone. they'll be ready to jump back when they get home from work again the next day. great job ccp and thank you guys!!!
Mirana Niranne
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#114 - 2013-08-05 18:56:36 UTC
Isn't there some issue with server load where every time you undock or change ships or log in the server has to make a counting of your skills and levels to apply bonuses etc for your fittings and such? Doesn't adding another skill give the server just one more thing to keep track of?

I'm curious as to why you're not just knocking 4 or 5 hours off the JC timer rather than adding another skill to suck resources in server tracking or whatever you call it. No big deal in small systems, but in big fights or really busy systems, I'm sure the more skills people have, the more load on the server, where if I recall, this is one of the bottlenecks Team Gridlock is dealing with.
Fifth Blade
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
#115 - 2013-08-05 18:56:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Fifth Blade
Tenchi Sal wrote:
5 hours reduction is perfect. most players dont play 23.5/7. someone can come home for work, login, decide they want to do "this thing" today, jump clone. they'll be ready to jump back when they get home from work again the next day. great job ccp and thank you guys!!!

The problem with this is that if you go over by 10 minutes it throws off your jump the next day, and the next until you just have to stop using it because the timer is too limiting.

Realistically you need 2 hours / level to account for normal variation. In the absolute best case: where you always play at the same time every day, if you hit traffic and log in minutes late you are screwed.

For real people who play more some days (like weekends) and less others? It just doesn't work at all.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#116 - 2013-08-05 19:02:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Tenchi Sal wrote:
5 hours reduction is perfect. most players dont play 23.5/7. someone can come home for work, login, decide they want to do "this thing" today, jump clone. they'll be ready to jump back when they get home from work again the next day. great job ccp and thank you guys!!!

This. This is the whole point.

This is not to make it easier to hop back and forth across the galaxy multiple times in a day. The ability to rapidly trans-locate/travel is already an issue in EVE.

This is simply a way to make it easier to jump ONCE a day, without screwing yourself up when you log on the following day. It's a buffer, so that if you don't think about jumping right away you have a bit of time to play with.

If they went any further they start to distort the primary function of a jump clone. Instead of a once per day convenience they begin to become a huge tactical consideration, circumventing a great deal of the logistical game play in place.

Planning your clone jumps should still be important... and this little bit of variable buffer (depending on how much buffer you want to train for, if any) makes the mechanic more practical instead of circumventing it completely.

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Kossaw
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#117 - 2013-08-05 19:06:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Kossaw
TBH, its a good plan. I like the idea of it being a rank 1 or 2 skill. But with the proposal as it stands right now, why bother training more than skill level 2 or 3. The only thing this propsal aims to do is help prevent players getting stuck outside their regular play hours on a weekday evening.

So this is NOT the solution we have been asking for for a very long time. It's a stop gap solution for a different problem.

It seems most people agree that there is a need to prevent mobility around eve simply by Jumping between clones every 5 minutes, and that your choice of implants should matter and have consequences when you want to instantly reship to a new fleet doctrine. And it seems most people agree that Clone jumping should never be more than once in a 12 hour period. So, the simple solution to give everyone what we really want is ...

- Make this ( or an advanced variation ) a higher rank skill so that training L5 takes 30+ days
- Make this ( or an advanced variation ) give a maximum benefit of 12 hours between clone jumps at L5

WTB : An image in my signature
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#118 - 2013-08-05 19:08:20 UTC
Please consider making it 1hr cooldown reduction per level for jumping outside of system/station and 4h12m (17.5%) reduction if clone you're jumping to is in the same system/station:
Untrained (jumping/swapping): 24h / 24h
Lv1: 23h / 19h48m
Lv2: 22h / 15h36m
Lv3: 21h / 11h24m
Lv4: 20h / 7h12m
Lv5: 19h / 3h

That will help newer player to PvP more frequently without harming training times much for their skills: you come home @19, jump into empty/pvp clone, and then @22 you'll be able to jump back to your precious +4/+5 carebear clone. Power projection is not an issue here - you'll have to travel to system/station to get reduced timer.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Shantetha
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2013-08-05 19:17:43 UTC
Daneel Trevize wrote:
Honestly, cancel this and do it right. 5 hours isn't right, nor is it being skillpoints based for just that.

The '99 things' initative highlights that many people are happy to see a more complete solution, a separation of the teleportation potential of jump clones with their implant-saving aspect. AFAIK many are willing to have shorter JC timers if they're in the same system/station as the other clone, and understand the power projection potential problems of having the ranged jumps be more frequent. But they also shown that players don't want to be tied to yesterday's start-of-session clone choice the next day, and that's where I feel 5 hours just isn't enough.

A 10hour reduction if in the same system/station sounds much more appealing, more likely to lead to fun options to mix things up for those that have the opportunity to fly various doctrines (remember we still can't use even a fraction of our SP or wealth at once anyway).
Don't make people train or plan to train a skill for this, especially if it's likely to be changed Soon. Almost as bad a 4 racial ECCM skills as a 'fix' for ECM, only hurts the new guys & those hoping for slightly varied session start-times.


First reaction to the skill as i was reading Big smile

then I realized it was 5 hours total Smile

then i realized it really wouldn't make learning implants less important nor reduce the disincentive people, who use +5, feel to expose themselves to low sec/null sec risk. Sad They are still a necessity and really should be phased out like learning skills, i know but what about those who were walking up hill both ways in the snow.

Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#120 - 2013-08-05 19:19:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
From the all the complaining I can only surmise that people do not want this skill & feature implementing.
I guess they are content with a continuation of the system currently in place.

No. People just want them to fix the problem by… you know… addressing the problem, rather than adding in a pointless one-day skill-training timesink as a half-assed band-aid to the problem.


In your opinion.