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[Odyssey 1.1] Jump Clone skills *Updated with Advanced Infomorph Psychology*

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Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#81 - 2013-08-05 17:53:19 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

The goal here is to avoid situations where jump clone delay pushes jump clone use back a bit each play session until eventually people wind up stranded in the wrong clone during their few hours of play time. We don't want to accelerate the rate that you can jump significantly, we just want to make sure that switching once a day is actually possible.


You will only accomplish your goal if everyone has exactly the same playtime every single day. It doesn't help in the situations where someone JC's and then a CTA goes out for a few hours later and they are stuck in the wrong clone.

If your primary goal is to have people able to switch out implants, then why not talk about more jumps with the skill? Or can we talk about why there is even a limit? What if there wasn't a limit and jump cloning and it cost ISK to jump clone (hey look another ISK sink!)?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#82 - 2013-08-05 17:56:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Longinius Spear wrote:
Just wondering, why would moving it down to say every 5 hours be "too much"?

In your opinion.
Because it makes it ridiculously easy to bypass the entire galaxy.

Alundil wrote:
@ Tippia - force projection via cloning can already be done with death clones almost instantaneously (either 2 minutes to undock and self destruct pod or even less to undock and call for "pod express").
…and comes at significant cost for each jump to compensate.

Also…
Dierdra Vaal wrote:
As such, I'd prefer this skill not to be included in Odyssey 1.1, and would prefer instead that the devs work towards a systemic improvement of the jumpclone system. A system where the two functions of jump clones (travel and implant switching) are separated. For example, allow only one clone jump per 24 hours if this moves the player out of the station (or system) he activated the jump from, but allow any amount of clone 'switches' within the same station.
…this needs to happen at some point, because that's really the main source of complication with the entire mechanic. As it is now, this just adds another “must-train” skill to the game, to solve a problem that's better solved by simply adjusting the base timer so it no longer causes that problem.
Scorpio Electra
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2013-08-05 17:59:52 UTC
1 hour per level is obviously waste of time to train this new skill - what benefit would this give? Give 3hrs per level! This way I can use one CJ in the morning and the other in the evening.
Unewish Aurilen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#84 - 2013-08-05 18:00:51 UTC
I think it would be a good idea to allow one clone switch in station per 24hrs/48hrs and one jump clone per 24hrs. Wouldn't be game breaking and wouldn't be hard to implement.
It would make pvp easier and more viable on a daily basis.
Just my .02
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#85 - 2013-08-05 18:01:28 UTC
*Shrugs* It's an improvement. I like it :)
rofflesausage
State War Academy
Caldari State
#86 - 2013-08-05 18:01:43 UTC  |  Edited by: rofflesausage
Dierdra Vaal wrote:
While I really applaud taking on the jumpcloning mechanics, I am not sure if this is the right way to do it. I'm worried that reducing clone jumping to 19 hours may make it too easy for alliances to use clone jumping as a way of further increasing their power projection. This change basically allows them to one night (during their personal primetime) be in location A, and the next night during their primetime in location B - without requiring them to actually travel the distance inbetween, which may otherwise deterr them from doing so or at least provide a meaningful effort sink.


They can do that now.

Change station clone -> Pod yourself.
Since clone costs got cheaper, this is more viable than ever. A 92.5M SP clone is 20M IIRC. Someone with that many SP is most likely going to be flying a ship way in excess of that cost. Heck, I've paid people to pod themselfs closer to us.

Power projection is a very real issue, I agree (one cyno frig moving hundreds of capitals is insane) but I'm not sure this is going to have a huge influence on it while the other underlying mechanics are in place.

If anything they could just make it into another ISK sink: X million per JC change, with a much lower limit.
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#87 - 2013-08-05 18:04:41 UTC
A good start, but 2 hours per level would be better. Easy math: If I've jumped clones during my play session, go to sleep for 6-8 hours, go to work and life for 8-10 hours, and come home wanting to hop into EvE, a 14 hour timer gets me back in action at just about the right time. On days I'm away longer, I don't have to train it to 5 to see the full benefit, but it helps.

Just bump it a little and you're there.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#88 - 2013-08-05 18:05:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Eh…

You could have just reduced the timer to 23 hours and solved the same problem. That said, 1h/level is about right. Definitely don't make it any more than that since it would make it far too easy to jump around — 2h would make it awfully close to a twice-a-day thing and that's too much.


though 1.5 would be the Goldilocks zone

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Xasnevian
sadfadsfadsadsf
#89 - 2013-08-05 18:07:32 UTC
This change would solve the problem, but I feel like this:

Dierdra Vaal wrote:
I'm also worried that this skill will go the way learning skills went.


Just reduce the timer on jumping. I would not enjoy training this as a skill.
This is Jita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#90 - 2013-08-05 18:10:15 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Do we really need it to be a skill? Just set it to 20 hours.


^ This ^
Sharon Tate
Cutting Edge Incorporated
#91 - 2013-08-05 18:11:59 UTC
Meh.

Why bother with the skill? If the goal is to simply remove the pain point for players to really be able to jump once a day, just drop the time to clone jump to 19 hours and be done with it.

Here's another skill that benefits vets against noobs. Vets with nothing to train can train this, while noobs will have to weigh training a useful fitting skill etc. versus this dubious choice.

This really shouldn't be a "skill".
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#92 - 2013-08-05 18:12:30 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
You know what, this is fine as proposed. Let's not turn this into another 80-page+ discussion.
+1 - on to Marauders, Black Ops and Pirates...
It's the summer. Never not a threadnaught.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#93 - 2013-08-05 18:13:54 UTC
Lame, to small to matter. I don't care much about using clones for fast travel but I would like the ability to change out the implants in my head more easily.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Gar'sul
Ruthless Renegades
#94 - 2013-08-05 18:14:17 UTC
Oliver Eels wrote:
Eliram Kahoudi wrote:
1hr per level is so meh. Something better than nothing for sure and i do appreciate that. But would be awesome to be able to lower the jump clones to 12hrs at rank 5 instead.


2 hrs per level would make it 14 hours to JC at max level. Much nicer, IMHO. Going from 24->19 hrs really isn't much of a difference.



Agree on this one !! 19 hours is no difference.
Maru Sha
The Department of Justice
#95 - 2013-08-05 18:17:37 UTC
1h per level seems right to me. If someone is logging in usually at around the same time, the person can now decide what clone to use for this game session ... and do the same the next day at the same time without being pushed back with every session. I would say, mission accomplished.

I wouldn't vote for more than 1h per level. I think that is a wish of pilots who always want to fly the perfect clone in the very moment without any commitment. You can also read from the posts that some would love to skill with +5 implants and maximum output while they are logged off but also have the whatever is perfect combat / industrial clone for their other needs during the online time. I don't like that. There should be trade-offs from my point of view and decisions should have a meaning ... and not just represent an optimization path.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#96 - 2013-08-05 18:21:28 UTC
Just remove jumpclones altogether, that'll stop this whining.

It's not as if they're actually good for the game, anyway.
XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#97 - 2013-08-05 18:21:36 UTC
This is a great change. People asking for more are just mice wanting milk with their cookie. It's really not a "buff" to gameplay, but more to player experience. Stop being whiners and take a gift for what it is.
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#98 - 2013-08-05 18:23:18 UTC
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
This is a great change. People asking for more are just mice wanting milk with their cookie. It's really not a "buff" to gameplay, but more to player experience. Stop being whiners and take a gift for what it is.
Why should there be a skill that improves quality-of-life? The base timer should just be lessened or make a skill like that have some actual game application.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#99 - 2013-08-05 18:24:12 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
Lame, to small to matter. I don't care much about using clones for fast travel but I would like the ability to change out the implants in my head more easily.


thats the main reason i jump clone is for implant change.

tbh i used to lobby for a complete change to how clones work.

i wanted player made clones

the ability to sell them on the market

the ability to install a clone vat bay in a pos

the ability to have multiple clones in a outpost/station

the ability to transport clones in a ship


at the end of the day i would like to setup a bunch of clones in my pos fully pvp fit with a bunch of pvp ships in the sma.

the biggest thing i hate about eve is having to fork out 30 million isk every time i die. Having the ability to make/transport/sell/hold more then one in a station... would be epic for the game.

make clones manufactureable using PI goods.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
2D34DLY4U
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#100 - 2013-08-05 18:25:12 UTC
Dierdra Vaal wrote:
I'm also worried that this skill will go the way learning skills went.


This is a bad idea as we are using a mechanic similar to learning skills to solve a gameplay problem. This new skill being introduced will either be meaningless (in its current state) or if you raise the hours/level in an attempt to solve the underlying problem you will create a skill that everyone will need and consequently a barrier to entry in the form of forcing everyone to spend X days training this - the issue, similar to learning skills, is that there is no trade off and no choice being made, its just something you will need to do and therefore not a good game mechanic and just another hurdle that you have to go through in order to play the game.

The problem with jump clones is related to the learning implants that are currently IMO a broken mechanic in the sense that they create a link between long term decision making (what to train) and short term risk/benefit decisions (what to risk in pvp). Implants that give you advantages in pvp are cool since you get the edge from the implants but also risk more with them, so this is working fine. Learning implants on the other hand create a barrier to pvp in the sense that in order to pvp seriously you have to forcefully gimp your ability to develop your skills in the long term, thus creating a barrier for pilots that want to pvp - it is a forced sunk cost that has to be paid for by all pvpers.

The jump clone timer change has implications in terms of travel and mobility, more so if we reduce jump clone delay to 0 (per Reasonable Suggestions vote item) - I don't see a problem with this right now as it's better to have the player jump clone around and keep playing than logoff and wait for a few hours to do whatever he wanted to do, but I am not an expert and there may be situations where this may be abused.

The problem here is the learning implants. Changing the jump clone timer is an elegant way around this problem since although we may see less learning implants being destroyed and less isk sink effect from those implants on one hand, on the other hand giving players flexibility in terms of changing implant sets on the fly may increase their overall use in the game and raise the total amount of implants of any kind being destroyed, thus having a beneficial effect on the market. This on top of allowing players to play the game more, as opposed to forcing them to logoff for hours to get things done...