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Kiting Thorax
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Eleanor Breau
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-08-04 20:22:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Eleanor Breau
Recently I've decided to but a shield rail thorax in celebration of the upcoming medium rail changes. I've been attempting to kite with it as I would with a shield omen or a stabbed, however I've run into some issues, notably my inability to hit anything. I've figured out that I can't orbit my target as the transversal is too high. When kiting with a high transversal weapon should I simply keep at range on a target, closing and increasing the gap between us as necessary? That is a bit concerning due to my lackluster tank, but does anyone have experience doing it? I see a lot of potential in the rail Thorax, however I just need to figure out how to fly it.

For reference, my fit is: 5x 200mm tech 2 rail guns, tank, point and a MWD in the mid slots, 2x TE, 2x magstab, and a DCU. I fly in shield fleets so a shield tank is necessary.

Edit: I accidentally posted this on an alt, but my support skills are decent for the ship.
Whitehound
#2 - 2013-08-04 21:42:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
When you say Omen do I assume you mean Heavy Pulse Laser IIs with Scorch.

If so will you have a lot more tracking than 200mm Railgun IIs can give you and it would already explain why you are now seeing tracking issues.

You will have to fit a Tracking Computer II with Tracking Speed Script to get a similar tracking speed on the Thorax or fit 150mm Railgun IIs. This will then only give you the tracking you are looking for, but not the DPS and you have to fit a strong tank to make up for it. A shield buffer tank will not do.

With the proposed changes will the DPS actually become the same, but then again cost 15% of the tracking. A single Metastasis Adjuster rig together with a TC should make 200mm Railgun IIs (on a Thorax) competitive to Heavy Pulse Laser IIs with Scorch if or when these changes come.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
#3 - 2013-08-05 00:47:14 UTC
You really aren't going to be hitting much with medium rails, before or after the buff regardless. Whitehound is correct in saying you really need the TC paired with a tracking rig to be competitive with omens. Instead of rail fitting, however, I suggest you try a blaster kiting fit.

Le fit:

Thorax: Baby Talos

Highs:
Heavy Neutron Blaster II (x5)

Mids:
Experimental 10mn Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Large FS-9 Regolith Shield Induction I

Lows:
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II (x2)
Tracking Enhancer II (x2)

Rigs:
Medium Ancillary Current Router (I hate this damn rig)
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I (x2)

Drones:
Valkyrie II (x5)

This fit can hit out to 20km comfortably with null, and does so with a solid 373 DPS. Tracking is wonderful and thanks to the defensive web all but the hardiest tacklers shall vaporize under your guns. You have about the same speed as a Stabber, and can definitely catch an omen. Feel free to swap one of the core defense rigs for an EM resist. Also, if you are in a gang, you can swap the scram for a long point and still manage tacklers just fine. The scram is defensive anyways. I run Valkyries for a little extra stopping power against cruisers, but warriors or Hobs wi deal with long point tacklers much better.

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Eleanor Breau
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-08-05 01:18:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Eleanor Breau
Alright. I agree that tracking will make a rail thorax hard to match up to an omen. In that case I'll probably hold onto a kiting omen and a blaster thorax, and maybe just screw around with a rail thorax when the buffs come. I really like the blaster Thorax fit, and I'll probably use it. I'll just have to pray not to get primaries before my caracal bretheren.

Edit interestingly enough it looks like a thorax only does 50 more damage but less speed and significantly less range. Hm, I'll have tolook into this.
Whitehound
#5 - 2013-08-05 09:18:46 UTC
Liam Inkuras wrote:
You really aren't going to be hitting much with medium rails, before or after the buff regardless. Whitehound is correct in saying you really need the TC paired with a tracking rig to be competitive with omens. Instead of rail fitting, however, I suggest you try a blaster kiting fit.

Le fit:

Thorax: Baby Talos

Highs:
Heavy Neutron Blaster II (x5)

Mids:
Experimental 10mn Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Large FS-9 Regolith Shield Induction I

Lows:
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II (x2)
Tracking Enhancer II (x2)

Rigs:
Medium Ancillary Current Router (I hate this damn rig)
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I (x2)

Drones:
Valkyrie II (x5)

This fit can hit out to 20km comfortably with null, and does so with a solid 373 DPS. Tracking is wonderful and thanks to the defensive web all but the hardiest tacklers shall vaporize under your guns. You have about the same speed as a Stabber, and can definitely catch an omen. Feel free to swap one of the core defense rigs for an EM resist. Also, if you are in a gang, you can swap the scram for a long point and still manage tacklers just fine. The scram is defensive anyways. I run Valkyries for a little extra stopping power against cruisers, but warriors or Hobs wi deal with long point tacklers much better.

Your are not quite correct. It will do 373 DPS at 7.5km. At 20km falloff will it drop down to 40% and therefore only do 149 DPS. Only when you add in the DPS of the 5 Valkyrie IIs (129 DPS) will you get to 278 DPS.

It has got twice as much tracking as the Omen with Scorch, but that is it. The Omen will still do more DPS only with its lasers (and these will melt shields fast).

One way to make blasters work is by dropping the TEs and replacing them with overdrives. One cannot get a high DPS from a Thorax at point range, but one can dictate range by boosting its speed to 2500 m/s.

Another alternative is to kite with 250mm railguns by sitting at 50km-60km. When you have friends can you use an AB for it, and when not will an MWD be your friend.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Eleanor Breau
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-08-05 13:36:28 UTC
Hm, I can't really see the advantage of medium hybrids now. It seems like pulse will beat them in nearly every engagement. I don't see this issue with large hybrids, only medium.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-08-05 13:48:20 UTC
[Thorax, railthorax]
Internal Force Field Array I
Tracking Enhancer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Warp Disruptor II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I

200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M

Medium Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I
Medium Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Valkyrie II x5

550 dps, with 19+15, a scorch omen has a tracking of 0.07 the thorax has 0.058, i.e nerly 0 difference. As you said, dont orbit, sit still at range or fly towards/away from him in on direction lowering transversal.

You could run a tc instead but that woudl criplle your cap so bad its not worth using.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#8 - 2013-08-05 13:54:54 UTC
Idk, most people would consider highest damage, good damage type and best tracking as advantages of a weapon system (blasters).

Yes, you need to fly properly to reap the benefits, but this applies to all other specialized stuff. Due to their nature blasters can't really be universally viable, otherwise they would simply be ridiculously OP.

I don't agree with the medium LR turret rebalancing, current rail damage would be fine if you could actually hit **** with them. Max skilled rail Rax has serious issues with hit quality even when the target is kept at low transversal, -15% tracking probably doesn't help much.



.
Whitehound
#9 - 2013-08-05 14:54:37 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
[Thorax, railthorax]
Internal Force Field Array I
Tracking Enhancer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Warp Disruptor II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I

200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M

Medium Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I
Medium Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Valkyrie II x5

550 dps, with 19+15, a scorch omen has a tracking of 0.07 the thorax has 0.058, i.e nerly 0 difference. As you said, dont orbit, sit still at range or fly towards/away from him in on direction lowering transversal.

You could run a tc instead but that woudl criplle your cap so bad its not worth using.

Something is wrong here. How do you get 550 DPS?

I get 440 DPS with your fitting, including the damage of the drones. The tracking is 0.069 and the tank is 15k eHP.

An Omen can reach these values easily and can tank nearly twice as much.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#10 - 2013-08-05 15:02:38 UTC
He is using the post-buff data files for EFT, including the damage buff and tracking nerf.

.
Whitehound
#11 - 2013-08-05 15:18:50 UTC
Roime wrote:
He is using the post-buff data files for EFT, including the damage buff and tracking nerf.


Thanks.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.