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ECM OMG CCP FIX THIS NERF IT BUFF IT

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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-08-05 10:54:14 UTC
No but seriously.

I had a Geddon tackled today in Proteus, he had sentries out but was out of range of them to scoop. I got him to hull before he abandoned sentries and popped out the Vespas.. Vespa's permajammed me 3 cycles before he decided it might be best to MJD and warp off.

So I googled ECM and discovered theres new skills (I only came back recently after 3 years away) which I don't have trained to counteract ECM. I'm like 47 jumps away from high sec so I'm wondering if that extra 20% will have any significant reduction in jamming from drones, if not I don't wanna jump all that way and then jump back, its like 96 jumps lol.

My sensor strength is 15. Think Vespa is 7.5. Whats the chance for each drone at the moment. What will be chance after I train skils to 5?

I can take off a sensor booster for ECCM what chance vs drones with that and skills trained.

Sorry not a mathematician. Also not whining. If they can use them I can use them too :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-08-05 11:26:14 UTC
Proteus has little sensor unless you fit dedicated sub,if you fit cloaky for sneaky attacks you need to pick your fights very carefully because of ECM drones mechanics, almost everyone carries one set of them provided drone bay has at least 15m3 because whatever can't hit you for 20sec can't harm you, meanwhile you can apply your best dmg on your target or gtfo.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-08-05 11:32:39 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Proteus has little sensor unless you fit dedicated sub,if you fit cloaky for sneaky attacks you need to pick your fights very carefully because of ECM drones mechanics, almost everyone carries one set of them provided drone bay has at least 15m3 because whatever can't hit you for 20sec can't harm you, meanwhile you can apply your best dmg on your target or gtfo.

Yeah Im cloaky. I guess Ill keep trying to tackle them, if they pop the drones Ill just have to accept temporary defeat. With T2 ECCM + ECM comp skills trained am I still going to be out of luck most of the time?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-08-05 11:39:11 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Proteus has little sensor unless you fit dedicated sub,if you fit cloaky for sneaky attacks you need to pick your fights very carefully because of ECM drones mechanics, almost everyone carries one set of them provided drone bay has at least 15m3 because whatever can't hit you for 20sec can't harm you, meanwhile you can apply your best dmg on your target or gtfo.

Yeah Im cloaky. I guess Ill keep trying to tackle them, if they pop the drones Ill just have to accept temporary defeat. With T2 ECCM + ECM comp skills trained am I still going to be out of luck most of the time?


ECM changes made it so it's a dice roll based on number of drones, the guy has better chances to get a jam on you with 5 than with 3, on the past after the 3rd ECM drone was not much gain but now yes.

Now if you train that skill comp your sensor will get a bit stronger but chances of jamming are still a dice roll, he can perfectly never get a jam cycle on you and then maybe succeed 2 in a very short amount of time.
ECCM of course helps a lot, it's even the single valid counter against jamming be it with fitting mods (mids/lows) or projected (by some one else)

Imho you should work a little bit on your fitting first, try to get as much slots as possible, you should be able to pull 7 on cloaky prot and then yes fit an ECCM instead of a DCU, your hull amount will not save your ass anyway but your armor amount, and chances your ECCM saves also your ass are higher than the DCU depending on what is shooting you.

Of course this is just a point of view, not rocket or mandatory science.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#5 - 2013-08-05 11:59:59 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Vespa's permajammed me 3 cycles



Permajammed, n. Being jammed at all.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-08-05 12:06:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Malcanis wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Vespa's permajammed me 3 cycles



Permajammed, n. Being jammed at all.

Permajammed as in from the moment they deployed to the moment they deactivated due to owner no longer being in range they had a constant jam on my ship... :)

Permajammed - I jumped out of the bushes to attack the pretty lady, she sprayed mace in my eyeballs, I was permajammed! n. Fecked.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#7 - 2013-08-05 12:09:21 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:


My sensor strength is 15. Think Vespa is 7.5. Whats the chance for each drone at the moment. What will be chance after I train skils to 5?


EC-600s have a jam strength of 1.5.

Each drone had a 1.5/15 = 10% chance to jam you per cycle.

If he had 5 drones on you that equates to a (1-(0.9^5) = 41% chance of jamming you

Getting 3 successful jams in a row was a 0.41^3 = 7% chance. You were unlucky but not incredibly so. 7% chances happen 7 times out of a hundred.

On the other hand if it would take you, let's say 5 or 6 jam cycles worth of time to kill him, and he only needed one success to escape, then the chance of him escaping was 1 - 0.59^5 or ^6 (93% or 96%). This is why people carry ECM drones - they're an effective way of breaking a single tackle if you have the time to keep trying to apply them.

The trouble is no one ever remembers the unsuccessful jam attempts, only the successful ones, thus your perception that ECM is overpowered And that you "always" get "permajammed". Speaking as someone who spent a lot of time in a Falcon back in the day, jam attempts most definitely can and do fail. Usually when you really really need them not to.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#8 - 2013-08-05 12:10:39 UTC
Incidentally ECM drones are incredibly fragile. A TS small smartbomb will kill them pretty fast.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2013-08-05 12:11:31 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:


My sensor strength is 15. Think Vespa is 7.5. Whats the chance for each drone at the moment. What will be chance after I train skils to 5?


EC-600s have a jam strength of 1.5.

Each drone had a 1.5/15 = 10% chance to jam you per cycle.

If he had 5 drones on you that equates to a (1-(0.9^5) = 41% chance of jamming you

Getting 3 successful jams in a row was a 0.41^3 = 7% chance. You were unlucky but not incredibly so. 7% chances happen 7 times out of a hundred.

On the other hand if it would take you, let's say 5 or 6 jam cycles worth of time to kill him, and he only needed one success to escape, then the chance of him escaping was 1 - 0.59^5 or ^6 (93% or 96%). This is why people carry ECM drones - they're an effective way of breaking a single tackle if you have the time to keep trying to apply them.

The trouble is no one ever remembers the unsuccessful jam attempts, only the successful ones, thus your perception that ECM is overpowered And that you "always" get "permajammed". Speaking as someone who spent a lot of time in a Falcon back in the day, jam attempts most definitely can and do fail. Usually when you really really need them not to.

I don't think they're overpowered. I had no ECCM and haven't got the skills trained to counter them. Additionally this was the first time I have been jammed since coming back to EvE so my experience is not really one to rely on as to whether they are overpowered or not.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Karak Bol
Low-Sec Survival Ltd.
#10 - 2013-08-05 12:31:17 UTC
For comparison, if you skill the compensation skill to IV:

1.5/18 = ~8.3 % per Drone

Thats about a 35% chance per cycle to be jammed. About 6% better than without skills. I think its worth it.
Jani Padecain
Panama Investment Bank
#11 - 2013-08-05 12:43:04 UTC
I never fly logi or EWAR ships without racial ECCM compensation lvl4. I had too meany times drowned myself into tears when rep cyckle is just about to land and then one ecm-300 drone drops my lock.

Love it tho. Makes it more intresting. :D
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-08-05 13:09:28 UTC
Karak Bol wrote:
For comparison, if you skill the compensation skill to IV:

1.5/18 = ~8.3 % per Drone

Thats about a 35% chance per cycle to be jammed. About 6% better than without skills. I think its worth it.

So not too overpowering. 8.3 x 5 then roughly per set of drones.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Jani Padecain
Panama Investment Bank
#13 - 2013-08-05 13:14:53 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Karak Bol wrote:
For comparison, if you skill the compensation skill to IV:

1.5/18 = ~8.3 % per Drone

Thats about a 35% chance per cycle to be jammed. About 6% better than without skills. I think its worth it.

So not too overpowering. 8.3 x 5 then roughly per set of drones.


That skill also stacks with ECCM modules. Decreasing the chance even more. It is good skill. One ECCM module and supporting skill (lvl4) can pull proteus sensor strengh all the way up to 44,3
Whitehound
#14 - 2013-08-05 13:27:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Train your skills. Not knowing about these new skills and then complaining about ECM is only funny.

You can fit an ECCM or even use the Dissolution Sequencer subsystem to get more sensor strength.

Alternatively can you launch light drones and have them chew through the EC-600s on the next failed jam.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-08-05 14:18:14 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Train your skills. Not knowing about these new skills and then complaining about ECM is only funny.

You can fit an ECCM or even use the Dissolution Sequencer subsystem to get more sensor strength.

Alternatively can you launch light drones and have them chew through the EC-600s on the next failed jam.

I didn't see any complaining. Just a question regarding whether its worthwhile to jump all the way back to get the skills. I have no issue with the Geddon saving himself, would've done the same thing.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Jani Padecain
Panama Investment Bank
#16 - 2013-08-05 14:25:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jani Padecain
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Train your skills. Not knowing about these new skills and then complaining about ECM is only funny.

You can fit an ECCM or even use the Dissolution Sequencer subsystem to get more sensor strength.

Alternatively can you launch light drones and have them chew through the EC-600s on the next failed jam.

I didn't see any complaining. Just a question regarding whether its worthwhile to jump all the way back to get the skills. I have no issue with the Geddon saving himself, would've done the same thing.


You will face this type of situation often. Words are hard.
But yeah. It is worth while skill to have. Take the trip. You may also consider moving your clone closer to the books and poding your self there.. ;P
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2013-08-05 18:28:24 UTC
Jani Padecain wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Train your skills. Not knowing about these new skills and then complaining about ECM is only funny.

You can fit an ECCM or even use the Dissolution Sequencer subsystem to get more sensor strength.

Alternatively can you launch light drones and have them chew through the EC-600s on the next failed jam.

I didn't see any complaining. Just a question regarding whether its worthwhile to jump all the way back to get the skills. I have no issue with the Geddon saving himself, would've done the same thing.


You will face this type of situation often. Words are hard.
But yeah. It is worth while skill to have. Take the trip. You may also consider moving your clone closer to the books and poding your self there.. ;P

Yeah I had a play with EFT, found a fit that'll give me 68 and doesn't really gimp my Proteus too much, I just lose range on my scram but I'm fit for uncloaking at close range anyway so not really an issue.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#18 - 2013-08-05 21:41:47 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Permajammed - I jumped out of the bushes to attack the pretty lady, she sprayed mace in my eyeballs, I was permajammed! n. Fecked.


Hope you don't mind but I'm putting this in my bio. Awesome quote!

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#19 - 2013-08-06 07:45:26 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Train your skills. Not knowing about these new skills and then complaining about ECM is only funny.

You can fit an ECCM or even use the Dissolution Sequencer subsystem to get more sensor strength.

Alternatively can you launch light drones and have them chew through the EC-600s on the next failed jam.

I didn't see any complaining. Just a question regarding whether its worthwhile to jump all the way back to get the skills. I have no issue with the Geddon saving himself, would've done the same thing.


For a straight up 8% sensor strength boost? Yeah, that's pretty nice for 80k SP, especially if you're soloing around.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016