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Tidi is gamebreaking for the smaller side

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#221 - 2013-08-04 07:01:32 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
a.What's wrong with that? The "winners" can't stay logged in there forever.
b.I don't think we're clear on the terms "siege" and "diversion". You don't go to where the enemy is when you do those.


a) Sure they can. Ibis+Cloak+System Cap = Victory. All you have to do is sit there DT to DT on the day of the timer.
b) So they send another fleet.

Quote:
a.A fleet is not a "thing". It is an arrangement of "things". I think 2000 players should be able to kill any one of those "things" in that arrangement of "things" in one shot.
b.Fleets of 2000 are formed because they have a day and a half to get their **** together. If they only had 30 minutes, I bet you there would be less of them, and thus, less need for things like TiDi.


a) Which brings us back to "Do." You said you didn't want a sov structure to take 2k players to blow up. I said they didn't form 2k players to blow it up, they formed 2k players to blow up the 2k defenders. I'll repeat: 2,000 people are not showing up because of the structure, they're showing up because of a different reason.
b) How many can show up in 5 minutes? Unless you want to radically increase the EHP of sov structures, the largest alliances can nync one in a siege cycle. So you end up with no fight at all. Better yet, if you combine it with your system cap idea, a couple hundred guys can just BLOPs in system, cap it out, and go AFK in their bombers to kill all the structures.

Quote:

a. Do you know what else is a defense that small or lopsided timezone groups can use to not get steamrolled? Not being small, and not having a lopsided timezone grouping. Also, steamrollers are really slow. You can just move out of the way.
b.Smaller groups are more than welcome to go whelp a fleet whenever they feel like it, timer or not. Ask anybody.
c.So, what you are saying is that the game treats smaller groups of players unfairly, by favoring them in the defense of their assets . . . and that this is fair because . . . ?


The question isn't whether they win or whether their loss is delayed, it's whether they have a chance to fight for their space. Timers give you the opportunity to fight for your space.

Quote:
There is some skewed logic going on here. On the one hand, things like timers, massive EHP for structures, structures-under-attack notifications, etc. are intended to make it "fair" for people who are trying to defend their assets, but doing that makes it unfair for people who are attacking such assets, and it does so in a compounding way, culminating in TiDi.

So, fairness for defenders. Unfairness for attackers.


How is it unfair that people notice that they've been attacked?
How is it unfair that the defenders have a reasonable opportunity to attempt a defense of their space?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Hesod Adee
Perkone
Caldari State
#222 - 2013-08-04 07:10:34 UTC
Take two groups. One that's stronger in one timezone, the other stronger in another. Remove reinforcement timers. Can you guess what will happen ?

Guild Wars 2 showed me exactly what will happen: A daily cycle of one side capturing everything during the night, followed by the other faction taking it back the next day. The stuff you take never feels like yours because you know you can't hold it.

Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
b.Fleets of 2000 are formed because they have a day and a half to get their **** together. If they only had 30 minutes, I bet you there would be less of them, and thus, less need for things like TiDi.


Only the defenders fleet will be smaller, as only the defender has to form up quickly. The attacker has as much time as they like to form up. This is because the defender doesn't know they are the target until after the attacking fleet has formed up and started attacking.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#223 - 2013-08-04 08:11:40 UTC
Hesod Adee wrote:
Take two groups. One that's stronger in one timezone, the other stronger in another. Remove reinforcement timers. Can you guess what will happen ?

Guild Wars 2 showed me exactly what will happen: A daily cycle of one side capturing everything during the night, followed by the other faction taking it back the next day. The stuff you take never feels like yours because you know you can't hold it.

That's one way to nerf jump bridges.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#224 - 2013-08-04 09:06:50 UTC
Ruby Porto wrote:
1. Sure they can. Ibis+Cloak+System Cap = Victory. All you have to do is sit there DT to DT on the day of the timer.
2. So they send another fleet.

3. Which brings us back to "Do." You said you didn't want a sov structure to take 2k players to blow up. I said they didn't form 2k players to blow it up, they formed 2k players to blow up the 2k defenders. I'll repeat: 2,000 people are not showing up because of the structure, they're showing up because of a different reason.
4. How many can show up in 5 minutes? Unless you want to radically increase the EHP of sov structures, the largest alliances can nync one in a siege cycle. So you end up with no fight at all. Better yet, if you combine it with your system cap idea, a couple hundred guys can just BLOPs in system, cap it out, and go AFK in their bombers to kill all the structures.

5. The question isn't whether they win or whether their loss is delayed, it's whether they have a chance to fight for their space. Timers give you the opportunity to fight for your space.

6.How is it unfair that people notice that they've been attacked?
7.How is it unfair that the defenders have a reasonable opportunity to attempt a defense of their space?


1."Ibis+Cloak+System Cap = Victory" wut? You get one destroyer into that system, and those Ibises are toast. Or, you could just take the system tomorrow.
2.So, now they have 2 fleets each equalling your own fleet, but you still think you should be able to hold the system. Why is that?

3.If 2000 enemy Talwars can 1-shot your titan, you'd have to be a moron to put your titan on grid with 2000 enemy Talwars, and even if you do, that titan won't be on grid with those Talwars for very long. And in such a scenario, you'd have to question the wisdom of putting anything on that grid at all. And, if there's nothing on the grid for those Talwars to kill, then they'll disperse. Then you can engage the smaller groups of them. Then you won't need TiDi to handle 2000 players on a grid.
4.So?

5.Removing a timer does not disband their corporation or alliance. It does not prevent them from forming a fleet. It does not deny them the use of their ships. It does not stop them from logging in. How, exactly, does a removing a timer stop them from doing anything? It only stops the other side from doing something. It forces the other side to play a certain way. That's not sandboxy.

6.How is it unfair to make them have to check on their stuff every once in a while? If they can't manage that or can't get someone else to manage that for them, maybe they have too much stuff. Your car doesn't call you when its being stolen. Hell, my children probably couldn't tell me they were being taken. Why does EVE jump on the Batphone whenever someone bumps into one of your structures?
7.What is a "reasonable" opportunity to defend their space, and why should EVE defend it for them until they get there?
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#225 - 2013-08-04 09:08:25 UTC
Hesod Adee wrote:
1.A daily cycle of one side capturing everything during the night, followed by the other faction taking it back the next day. The stuff you take never feels like yours because you know you can't hold it.

2. . . the defenders fleet will be smaller, as only the defender has to form up quickly. The attacker has as much time as they like to form up. This is because the defender doesn't know they are the target until after the attacking fleet has formed up and started attacking.


1. If you can't hold it, then how is it yours? You seem to be running into an existential false dilemma based on your quaint notion of "possession".

2. OK, but then I want 20 minutes notice before anyone is allowed to try to gank my ship, that way I can muster an appropriately sized fleet to counter the fleet that is going to try to gank me. Actually, make it an hour. Actually, let's base it on the amount of strontium clathrates I'm carrying around in the cargohold of my mining barge.
See the double standard, yet?
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#226 - 2013-08-04 10:02:15 UTC
so you want all of eve to be tidi if one system is tidi to make it equal for everyone?

oh that would make empire bears mad.

lets get it done ccp

OMG when can i get a pic here
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#227 - 2013-08-04 10:06:02 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:

5.Removing a timer does not disband their corporation or alliance. It does not prevent them from forming a fleet. It does not deny them the use of their ships. It does not stop them from logging in. How, exactly, does a removing a timer stop them from doing anything? It only stops the other side from doing something. It forces the other side to play a certain way. That's not sandboxy.


How exactly do people in pacific nations defend their assets when russians attack under your idea?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#228 - 2013-08-04 10:44:06 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
1."Ibis+Cloak+System Cap = Victory" wut? You get one destroyer into that system, and those Ibises are toast. Or, you could just take the system tomorrow.
2.So, now they have 2 fleets each equalling your own fleet, but you still think you should be able to hold the system. Why is that?


Cool, 1 destroyer knocking down sov structures. Sounds fun.

Nope, all they need is 2 fleets equalling the server cap. Remember, under your scheme, there's a set limit to how many people can be in a system. Every servercap sized fleet you can field is one guaranteed system you're taking today.

Quote:
3.If 2000 enemy Talwars can 1-shot your titan, you'd have to be a moron to put your titan on grid with 2000 enemy Talwars, and even if you do, that titan won't be on grid with those Talwars for very long. And in such a scenario, you'd have to question the wisdom of putting anything on that grid at all. And, if there's nothing on the grid for those Talwars to kill, then they'll disperse. Then you can engage the smaller groups of them. Then you won't need TiDi to handle 2000 players on a grid.
4.So?


3)Who said anything about a Titan? The 2000 man fleet is heading to fight another 2000 man fleet. But wait, under your system, whoever can peg the population cap automagically holds the field without having to fight anyone.
4) I'd like grinding Sov to occasionally include some ships fighting each other, not just shooting structures, thankyouverymuch.

Quote:
5.Removing a timer does not disband their corporation or alliance. It does not prevent them from forming a fleet. It does not deny them the use of their ships. It does not stop them from logging in. How, exactly, does a removing a timer stop them from doing anything? It only stops the other side from doing something. It forces the other side to play a certain way. That's not sandboxy.


It denies them the opportunity to participate in the defense of their stuff. This is a game, you cannot expect people to be on call 24/7/365 with a better response time than the Police (Siege Cycle=5 minutes. Avg Police response in the US=9 minutes.)

Quote:
6.How is it unfair to make them have to check on their stuff every once in a while? If they can't manage that or can't get someone else to manage that for them, maybe they have too much stuff. Your car doesn't call you when its being stolen. Hell, my children probably couldn't tell me they were being taken. Why does EVE jump on the Batphone whenever someone bumps into one of your structures?
7.What is a "reasonable" opportunity to defend their space, and why should EVE defend it for them until they get there?


6. Every structure, every 5 minutes, is not "once in a while." Remember, you got rid of timers.
7. Call it a day or so. Because the game works better that way.

Why should EVE limit the number of people in a system to guarantee a win for the attackers?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#229 - 2013-08-04 11:18:02 UTC
ITT: shitloads of people that didn't knew the hell before TiDi and think that system hardcap is an awesome mechanic.

Lol

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#230 - 2013-08-04 11:48:45 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
so you want all of eve to be tidi if one system is tidi to make it equal for everyone?


I just want a reinforcement timer before someone can blow up my Retriever. Losing my assets without having the chance to defend them makes me sad.Sad

Baltec1 wrote:
How exactly do people in pacific nations defend their assets when russians attack under your idea?


"Yes we can. We hell camped the PL supercap fleet for a week before we let them go when they attempted to headshot VFK. We have the numbers to cap out a system for however long we need and nothing needs to be camped for a week."

Sounds like a plan. Yes we can!

Seriously, though:
1.cooperate with players in other timezones
2.don't **** off the Russians
3.if someone destroys your space stuff, kick their space ass so hard that they don't do that again
4.wake up early, stay up late to defend your stuff
5.Go back to high sec!
6.organize your space stuff in a way that makes it easy to defend and hard to attack
7.have good intel . . .

tl;dr - metagame

Ruby Porto wrote:

1.all they need is 2 fleets equalling the server cap . . . Every servercap sized fleet you can field is one guaranteed system you're taking today.

2.I'd like grinding Sov to occasionally include some ships fighting each other, not just shooting structures, thankyouverymuch.

3.It denies them the opportunity to participate in the defense of their stuff. This is a game, you cannot expect people to be on call 24/7/365 with a better response time than the Police (Siege Cycle=5 minutes. Avg Police response in the US=9 minutes.)

4.Every structure, every 5 minutes, is not "once in a while."

5.Call it a day or so. Because the game works better that way.


1.4000 players should be able to hold 2 systems.

2.No, you want a turkey shoot where some incompetent group fields a "defense fleet" that you can mass firepower on. What's sad is that so many are willing to oblige you because they've been fooled into thinking that "that's how you play the game".

3.If I called the police because someone was killing me and then died before the police arrived, they wouldn't just leave and give up because they "didn't have the opportunity to participate in the defense of the caller". If someone blows up your POS and you just leave and give up . . . I don't know . . .

4.If structures were being demolished every 5 minutes, how long do you think it would be before there were no more structures in the game? And, after all the structures were destroyed, what do you think would happen?

5.OK, so, a mission runner in a 2 billion ISK battleship should always get a day's warning before anyone is allowed to attack his ship?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#231 - 2013-08-04 17:04:10 UTC
Quote:

"Yes we can. We hell camped the PL supercap fleet for a week before we let them go when they attempted to headshot VFK. We have the numbers to cap out a system for however long we need and nothing needs to be camped for a week."

Sounds like a plan. Yes we can!

Seriously, though:
1.cooperate with players in other timezones
2.don't **** off the Russians
3.if someone destroys your space stuff, kick their space ass so hard that they don't do that again
4.wake up early, stay up late to defend your stuff
5.Go back to high sec!
6.organize your space stuff in a way that makes it easy to defend and hard to attack
7.have good intel . . .

tl;dr -


1. There are 200 nationalities with scorez of languages. Playing with people who speak another language isnt an option to many.
2. You dont have to. If they feel they can take your stuff they will.
3. How will you do this when you are locked out of your own stations and have lost all of your infrastructure?
4. Because most of us dont have jobs and require no sleep.
5. You dont want me back in high sec again.
6. And how will you do this when there is no timers and the main powers own hundreds of supercaps?
7. Because this doesn't work both ways.



This is a terrible idea that has literally nothing redeeming in it at all. TiDi works amazingly well and CCP deserves many beers.

Everything in you plan would damage EVE greatly.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#232 - 2013-08-04 19:23:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

5. You dont want me back in high sec again.



oh gods no, the virgins... all those virgins... and blood...


Shocked

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#233 - 2013-08-04 19:28:33 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
1.4000 players should be able to hold 2 systems.

2.No, you want a turkey shoot where some incompetent group fields a "defense fleet" that you can mass firepower on. What's sad is that so many are willing to oblige you because they've been fooled into thinking that "that's how you play the game".

3.If I called the police because someone was killing me and then died before the police arrived, they wouldn't just leave and give up because they "didn't have the opportunity to participate in the defense of the caller". If someone blows up your POS and you just leave and give up . . . I don't know . . .

4.If structures were being demolished every 5 minutes, how long do you think it would be before there were no more structures in the game? And, after all the structures were destroyed, what do you think would happen?

5.OK, so, a mission runner in a 2 billion ISK battleship should always get a day's warning before anyone is allowed to attack his ship?


1) And under your proposal, they can't hold any. They can't even log in to either system once the attacker has capped it out.

2) Nope. You're suggesting a guaranteed (and fast) win for every attack, obviating the possibility of defense.

3) Wars take longer than individual combat. Your suggestions make effective defense impossible. Can you run out and check every single sov structure and POS in, let's say a constellation within 5 minutes of an arbitrary time? Let's find out. Clock starts now. If you haven't posted with which constellation and a list of all structures in it by 32 past the hour, I'll edit this to point out that you were unable to learn of any attack on your home in enough time to do anything about it.

It's 37 past the hour, and you just lost your space without being able to even attempt a defense.

4) Everybody would quit, because they just spent the past 8-10 months in a futile war where they had no opportunity to ever defend their space.

5) Invalid comparison. A ship is not, in any way, a permanent structure.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#234 - 2013-08-04 19:50:19 UTC
Baltec1 wrote:
1. There are 200 nationalities with scorez of languages. Playing with people who speak another language isnt an option to many.
2. You dont have to. If they feel they can take your stuff they will.
3. How will you do this when you are locked out of your own stations and have lost all of your infrastructure?
4. Because most of us dont have jobs and require no sleep.
5. You dont want me back in high sec again.
6. And how will you [organize your space stuff in a way that makes it easy to defend and hard to attack] when there is no timers and the main powers own hundreds of supercaps?
7. Because this doesn't work both ways.



8.This is a terrible idea that has literally nothing redeeming in it at all. TiDi works amazingly well and CCP deserves many beers.

9.Everything in you plan would damage EVE greatly.


1.Google переводить, друг.
2.Why would they feel like they could take your stuff?
3.How will anyone do this when the blue donut already controls all the stations and infrastructure?
4.I thought you had "friends". Maybe your "friends" could fight for your stuff when you are at work, or sleeping, or whatnot. EVE isn't a single player game, after all.
5.I couldn't care less. I don't exactly "live" in high sec.
6.I agree. Force projection IS a problem.
7.How does having good intelligence not work both ways?

8.The redeeming value in it would be to make for more dynamic gameplay where a force density of 2000 Megathrons wasn't necessary to accomplish something. (It's hit-and-run, not hit-and-stand-around-waiting-for-an-arbitrary-timer-to-tick-down-then-slug-it-out-with-the-enemy's-main-force-and-fail-to-accomplish-the-objective-if-you-lose-that-fight.) Besides that, maybe I just don't want to play EVE on your schedule.

9."Everything" in my "plan" would damage YOUR idea of EVE and YOUR gameplay greatly, maybe. From my standpoint, I'm sick of seeing the word "Invulnerable" posted on everything when I fly around in null. Monopoly is only a fun game until someone actually HAS a monopoly. Maybe you should try being a newbie again and the problems might become a little more apparent. 100 million skillpoints and 100 supercapitals at your back probably has a way of skewing your perspective.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#235 - 2013-08-04 19:58:07 UTC
just because you think a change might do a thing doesn't mean it will do that thing

mayhaw mogan please describe your knowledge and experience of fleet fights and timer mechanics ingame
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#236 - 2013-08-04 20:02:33 UTC
Ruby Porto wrote:
1) And under your proposal, they can't hold any. They can't even log in to either system once the attacker has capped it out.

2) Nope. You're suggesting a guaranteed (and fast) win for every attack, obviating the possibility of defense.

3)It's 37 past the hour, and you just lost your space without being able to even attempt a defense.

4) Everybody would quit, because they just spent the past 8-10 months in a futile war where they had no opportunity to ever defend their space.

5) Invalid comparison. A ship is not, in any way, a permanent structure.


1.So, take a different system until they get tired. Siege it. Make them move by hitting them somewhere else.

2.And as it is now, it's a guaranteed defense as long as I don't do something stupid like forget to have strontium clathrates in my POS.

3.TAKE IT BACK!

4.EVERYBODY does not "own" space, Ruby. Very few people "own" space. Why is that?

5.A ship is an asset. A POS is an asset. A station is an asset. And, how much lag would there be in Jita if every attempted suicide gank necessitated a day long countdown for the victim's ship to come out of reinforced mode and second confrontation?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#237 - 2013-08-04 20:08:18 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
1.So, take a different system until they get tired. Siege it. Make them move by hitting them somewhere else.

2.And as it is now, it's a guaranteed defense as long as I don't do something stupid like forget to have strontium clathrates in my POS.

3.TAKE IT BACK!

4.EVERYBODY does not "own" space, Ruby. Very few people "own" space. Why is that?

5.A ship is an asset. A POS is an asset. A station is an asset. And, how much lag would there be in Jita if every attempted suicide gank necessitated a day long countdown for the victim's ship to come out of reinforced mode and second confrontation?


1. They're sieged. They can't move, and you can't hurt them, since everyone's long since staged out of NPC null or LS.

2. Nope. You actually have to fight to defend your stuff. If you don't, the attackers roll up and stomp the structure when it comes out of RF.

3. Why would you? You can't gain any benefits from holding space, because you cannot possibly hold it.

4. Under your proposal nobody would own any space in any meaningful way.

6. A ship is piloted. A POS is not. The defender is always present when you shoot a ship. The same is not true of a structure.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#238 - 2013-08-04 20:11:39 UTC
also the whole thing that having two fleets show up to the same place at the same time to duke it out is basically the intention of the timer mechanic
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#239 - 2013-08-04 20:12:18 UTC
you know, having a game instead of a shitshow
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#240 - 2013-08-04 20:28:02 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:


1.Google переводить, друг.
2.Why would they feel like they could take your stuff?
3.How will anyone do this when the blue donut already controls all the stations and infrastructure?
4.I thought you had "friends". Maybe your "friends" could fight for your stuff when you are at work, or sleeping, or whatnot. EVE isn't a single player game, after all.
5.I couldn't care less. I don't exactly "live" in high sec.
6.I agree. Force projection IS a problem.
7.How does having good intelligence not work both ways?

8.The redeeming value in it would be to make for more dynamic gameplay where a force density of 2000 Megathrons wasn't necessary to accomplish something. (It's hit-and-run, not hit-and-stand-around-waiting-for-an-arbitrary-timer-to-tick-down-then-slug-it-out-with-the-enemy's-main-force-and-fail-to-accomplish-the-objective-if-you-lose-that-fight.) Besides that, maybe I just don't want to play EVE on your schedule.

9."Everything" in my "plan" would damage YOUR idea of EVE and YOUR gameplay greatly, maybe. From my standpoint, I'm sick of seeing the word "Invulnerable" posted on everything when I fly around in null. Monopoly is only a fun game until someone actually HAS a monopoly. Maybe you should try being a newbie again and the problems might become a little more apparent. 100 million skillpoints and 100 supercapitals at your back probably has a way of skewing your perspective.


1. Good luck doing that over voice comms
2. Because it is impossible to defend it under your system

The rest is just waffling about nothing.

Making defence impossible is not fixing anything, its breaking everything. Locking out people from a system is also not fixing anything and breaking everything. If you had been around as long as me you would know that every single sov owner in null has taken that sov from someone else. This idea of yours simply cannot work.