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Imperial Navy Slicer Assistance?
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Miles Winter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-08-04 17:31:03 UTC
http://i.imgur.com/S6cVGTM.png

This fit is a little modified from what I'd run earlier. Mostly reduced range (swapped a locus for polycarbon rig and went with a 20km point).

I'm really not sure what the expectations are for a slicer's capabilities. Is this too slow? Not enough tank? Not enough damage? I don't know.



Some storytelling:
So, I'm in RvB, been having a blast with these guys since I started playing. (~2-3 weeks ago)

Today, I decided to give the Imperial Navy Slicer a try. It's pretty expensive, but it seemed fast enough to speedtank (3300m/s), and it kites at ~18km (with my skills, anyways. Level 5 would be 3800m/s and 24-ish km's).

Unfortunately, it did not perform at all nearly as well as I had hoped. The first fight, we organized a tackle on a guy in a Vexor who'd gone ~40km's off RedHQ. One of our guys lined up 50km's off him, with the sun on the other side, and another blue and I warped from the sun on top of the Vexor and got the tackle and then the rest of the fleet came in. It wen't really well up until I got drones on me, - most of the reds had undocked and I guess I got called primary or something because I was almost instantly surrounded by 10-15 drones. They caught me in-between MWD cycles (Running out of cap, so I turned it off to maintain point), and the drones basically killed me before I could even react or try to warp.

I went and got another Slicer fitted up and came back for some more fighting at RedHQ, this time we'd caught a Legion who'd aggressed at undock. I got into a comfortable 17km orbit on him with the MWD going and was doing pretty well until he finally targeted and one-shot me. I was a bit surprised by that, because I wasn't really expecting a cruiser to be able to hit me that well at that distance and speed.

My Slicer fit is in the image; does anyone have any recommendations or advice for me? (and not just relating to the fit) I almost think I should just swear off interceptor/light frigate style ships for now, considering my experiences with them. Simply: They die too quickly once I'm actually targeted, and it seems when I'm flying them, I get targeted immediately. Whereas, if I fly a punisher, I can get through mutliple fleet engagements without even being shot at, and when I do, I can just tank through most of it anyways. (Also, cheaper to replace and doesn't need to be replaced nearly as often - I've gone through about 1 punisher a week, vs 2 slicers in a day.)
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-08-04 17:41:13 UTC
Nonlinked Slicers suck vs cruisers, its a strict 1v1 (you can 1v2/3 ab frigs, but even then the slicer doesnt perform that well) anti frig/dessie ship (or drawing someone off a fleet and then 1v1ing him), dont use it in blobs?
Nihassa
RvB Industries
#3 - 2013-08-04 17:42:05 UTC
You need a tank

no. 1 - Damage Control Suitcase =)

no. 2 - Anc Armor repper are good on them to

RvB are usually very good at knowing how to deal with slicers, but trust me they are amazing ships when used right, ive taken down daredevils and bc's solo in them, but you rly have to keep your distance from anything with a scram or neut, and watch out for people trygin to slingshot you =)

This was by fit before the changes - you can drop the CPU mod now and can some more nano =)

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14741123

Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#4 - 2013-08-04 17:42:31 UTC
The Kitey Slicer is good if used properly, but to be honest, that segment is occupied by so many ships which will just tear you apart that i don't like it. On the other hand it only got 2 midslots, so brawling is pretty hard without the web.

Therefor it can make a nice brawler if it has backup.

Basically in that case you can orientate on your punisher fit and try adapt it to the slicer. And then fly it like the punisher.
Miles Winter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-08-04 17:56:25 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Nonlinked Slicers suck vs cruisers, its a strict 1v1 (you can 1v2/3 ab frigs, but even then the slicer doesnt perform that well) anti frig/dessie ship (or drawing someone off a fleet and then 1v1ing him), dont use it in blobs?


So my mistake has been trying to use it in fleet fights?

Should I be focusing on chasing guys down in-system and pointing people on gatecamps?
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-08-04 17:56:50 UTC
It doesn't do well vs drones, like many kitey low ehp setups. Especially 15 or so drones.

It's a FW novice/small plex kiting ship, fly it similar to a LML condor/hookbill.

Art of Explosions
Whitehound
#7 - 2013-08-04 17:58:29 UTC
Miles Winter wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/S6cVGTM.png

This fit is a little modified from what I'd run earlier. Mostly reduced range (swapped a locus for polycarbon rig and went with a 20km point).

I'm really not sure what the expectations are for a slicer's capabilities. Is this too slow? Not enough tank? Not enough damage? I don't know. ...

It will fly, but you will find faster T1 frigates like the Interceptors that can catch up to it.

You can drop the meta 4 DCU and fit a DCU II. Go with a meta 4 tracking enhancer if you are short on CPU to do this. The Internal Force Field Array I is kind of rare and therefore costs around 6m ISKs.

Also do not fit an Energy Burst Aerator Rig, but use a Energy Collision Accelerator rig. The later increases the damage without costing more cap. Well, looking at the stats in PYFA does it not make a big difference on the IN Slicer, but I thought I should let you know.

If I find more I'll let you know (watching the tourney...).

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Miles Winter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-08-04 18:12:15 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
If I find more I'll let you know (watching the tourney...).


Likewise here.


Quote:
It will fly, but you will find faster T1 frigates like the Interceptors that can catch up to it.

You can drop the meta 4 DCU and fit a DCU II. Go with a meta 4 tracking enhancer if you are short on CPU to do this. The Internal Force Field Array I is kind of rare and therefore costs around 6m ISKs.

Also do not fit an Energy Burst Aerator Rig, but use a Energy Collision Accelerator rig. The later increases the damage without costing more cap. Well, looking at the stats in PYFA does it not make a big difference on the IN Slicer, but I thought I should let you know.


That was something I did notice, but the difference seemed very minor. Probably better to have slightly more cap than 1dps, anyways.
Miles Winter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-08-04 18:30:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Miles Winter
Nihassa wrote:
You need a tank

no. 1 - Damage Control Suitcase =)

no. 2 - Anc Armor repper are good on them to

RvB are usually very good at knowing how to deal with slicers, but trust me they are amazing ships when used right, ive taken down daredevils and bc's solo in them, but you rly have to keep your distance from anything with a scram or neut, and watch out for people trygin to slingshot you =)

This was by fit before the changes - you can drop the CPU mod now and can some more nano =)

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14741123



Thanks for this. I've looked at it and updated my fit. Added a rep and DCII, reduced range mods a bit more as well.

Damage and speed more or less unchanged. Range reduced. Survivability increased.

http://i.imgur.com/YE95zm7.png
Whitehound
#10 - 2013-08-04 18:33:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Here is a fit that tries to copy yours, but features an active tank:

[Imperial Navy Slicer, Miles Winter]

Damage Control II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Heat Sink II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Warp Disruptor I

Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
[Empty High slot]

Small Energy Collision Accelerator I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I

I left out all the tracking related things you have put into your fitting, because you already have great tracking with the pulse lasers. Also, when everyone flies with an MWD are the ships' signature all huge and pretty easy to hit.

I also dropped all the inertia-related modules&rigs and replaced them with only speed modules, because you do not want to change direction too many times, but stay at the highest speed you can get while you kite.

So instead of having extra tracking and agility do you get a bit more eHP and an AAR. DPS, speed and optimal range are pretty much identical to yours.

You can change it further by dropping one of the two Energy Locus Coordinator I rigs and use an Auxiliary Thrusters I rig and get the speed to 4113 m/s.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Miles Winter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-08-04 18:44:32 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Here is a fit that tries to copy yours, but features an active tank:

[Imperial Navy Slicer, Miles Winter]

Damage Control II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Heat Sink II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Warp Disruptor I

Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
[Empty High slot]

Small Energy Collision Accelerator I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I

I left out all the tracking related things you have put into your fitting, because you already have great tracking with the pulse lasers. Also, when everyone flies with an MWD are the ships' signature all huge and pretty easy to hit.

I also dropped all the inertia-related modules&rigs and replaced them with only speed modules, because you do not want to change direction too many times, but stay at the highest speed you can get while you kite.

So instead of having extra tracking and agility do you get a bit more eHP and an AAR. DPS, speed and optimal range are pretty much identical to yours.

You can change it further by dropping one of the two Energy Locus Coordinator I rigs and use an Auxiliary Thrusters I rig and get the speed to 4113 m/s.


Alright, taking your advice of going for raw speed over turning ability, I swapped one of my nanofibers out for an overdrive.

With level 5, the stats are now:

150 DPS (Scorch) @ 19.4km's - (20km's more or less with falloff)
4459 ehp w/ 30dps rep (my previous fit was ~2200 ehp)
4073m/s (essentially unchanged speed)


In other words, I've managed to double the tanking ability of the slicer while only reducing its effective engagement range by ~4km and not really changing anything else about it.
Gorn Arming
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-08-04 19:24:18 UTC
You're trying to use the slicer in an interceptor's role. It's not good at that. Interceptors have bonuses to tackle range, tackle mod cap use, and sig radius while MWDing. Your Slicer might be as fast as an inty, but you have a vastly larger sig radius while MWDing (this is why tackling a turret cruiser at 17km got you blapped) and you will struggle to keep a point on for long without very good cap skills.

Basically, you're flying it like a Crusader or Malediction. Get one of those instead if you're going to be doing that.
Miles Winter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-08-04 19:34:50 UTC
Gorn Arming wrote:
You're trying to use the slicer in an interceptor's role. It's not good at that. Interceptors have bonuses to tackle range, tackle mod cap use, and sig radius while MWDing. Your Slicer might be as fast as an inty, but you have a vastly larger sig radius while MWDing (this is why tackling a turret cruiser at 17km got you blapped) and you will struggle to keep a point on for long without very good cap skills.

Basically, you're flying it like a Crusader or Malediction. Get one of those instead if you're going to be doing that.


I'd be interested in seeing your alternative, for sure. Everyone I've spoken with so far has said: High speed, kite from long range.

Can the Slicer brawl as well as a punisher?
Gorn Arming
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-08-04 19:52:12 UTC
Miles Winter wrote:
Gorn Arming wrote:
You're trying to use the slicer in an interceptor's role. It's not good at that. Interceptors have bonuses to tackle range, tackle mod cap use, and sig radius while MWDing. Your Slicer might be as fast as an inty, but you have a vastly larger sig radius while MWDing (this is why tackling a turret cruiser at 17km got you blapped) and you will struggle to keep a point on for long without very good cap skills.

Basically, you're flying it like a Crusader or Malediction. Get one of those instead if you're going to be doing that.


I'd be interested in seeing your alternative, for sure. Everyone I've spoken with so far has said: High speed, kite from long range.

Can the Slicer brawl as well as a punisher?

I'm not sure what you're asking--the alternative you're looking for is "get an interceptor".

If you're asking something more like "I have a slicer already; what can I do with it," the answer is to solo other frigates via kiting. You can sometimes take down cruisers and destroyers if they have a particularly exploitable fitting, but generally the slicer is best at hunting other frigates. I wouldn't bring one to a gang if I had the option of bringing an inty instead. The slicer's high DPS and range (for a frigate) aren't very valuable when you've got larger ships providing firepower already.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-08-04 20:02:36 UTC
Miles Winter wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Nonlinked Slicers suck vs cruisers, its a strict 1v1 (you can 1v2/3 ab frigs, but even then the slicer doesnt perform that well) anti frig/dessie ship (or drawing someone off a fleet and then 1v1ing him), dont use it in blobs?


So my mistake has been trying to use it in fleet fights?

Should I be focusing on chasing guys down in-system and pointing people on gatecamps?


Yes, in gatecamps you can just use a ceptor, a slicer isnt a good fleet ship, unlike afs/ceptors it gets the full sig bloom, at 20km you are very easily trackable by most medium guns.

If you want to chase someone down and hold tackle, well again a ceptor is a better bet.


Due to said sig bloom, its value (a slier will always be primary in a t1 frig gang, simply cause of bling) and the fact that unlike some other kiters you are forced to stay quite close to your opponent the slicer doesnt perform very well in fleet fights.

What the slicer can do however is draw ships of those fleet fight and kill them before their firends arrive, i.e next time you are fighting a fleet, try not to comit, sit at 60/70km or so, wait till their fast tacklers (the ceptors, t1 frigs) start to chase you down, burn away from them while shooting them, you will be surprised how many people will die to that, once you comfortable doing that and not diying you will notice that you miss quite a few kills because they turn around beofre they die, so you will need to judge when to turn around and to go in.

This is due the slicer beeing so fast that the only ships which will be fast enough to come after you will have very few ehp and will die quickly.


Thats pretty much how you fight a fleet in a slicer, in most fleet vs fleet fights you will however go unnoticed at 60km and die up close, so try to use it solo or in a very small group.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD8yHVH83TU&feature=youtu.be

from min 7:30 onwards you see some nice/ok usage of the slicer (couldnt find anything else).

Where it truly shines, is in 1v1s tho.

this imo is by far the best normal slicer fit:


[Imperial Navy Slicer, best slcier fit]
Internal Force Field Array I
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Co-Processor II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste

Gistii B-Type 1MN Microwarpdrive
Dread Guristas Warp Disruptor

Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
[empty high slot]
Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S

Small Energy Locus Coordinator II
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator II


Cap without the rep is 2min40, 189 heated dps. In any slicer vs slicer/retribution/coercer fights range is most important, you can easily kie another kiter at 23km so having a 26km range is amazing.

The dg point is for cpu, mwd is for cap.

Cheap version would be this:

[Imperial Navy Slicer, cheap]
Internal Force Field Array I
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Co-Processor II
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II

Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
[empty high slot]
Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S

Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I


You lose the rep (rep most times is used for out of fight repping not in fight), and you lose 2km of range, you still have 2minb42 cap and you hae a 24km range, still 189 dps with heat, if you have cpu implants you can still run it with a repper, you cap will suffer tho, so unless you plan on using a b type mwd i wouldnt use it. Especially as you can rep in stations in highsec.


You can do ab/scarm slicers, but they arent amazing, you can do a 10mn ab + faction scram version, but that needs billions in implants/links to work.


If you can, try to safe some isk and buy yourself a lg snake set, together with a zors it really is very nice (and in rvb you dont lose your pod)
Miles Winter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-08-04 20:05:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Miles Winter
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

Yes, in gatecamps you can just use a ceptor, a slicer isnt a good fleet ship, unlike afs/ceptors it gets the full sig bloom, at 20km you are very easily trackable by most medium guns.

If you want to chase someone down and hold tackle, well again a ceptor is a better bet.


Due to said sig bloom, its value (a slier will always be primary in a t1 frig gang, simply cause of bling) and the fact that unlike some other kiters you are forced to stay quite close to your opponent the slicer doesnt perform very well in fleet fights.

What the slicer can do however is draw ships of those fleet fight and kill them before their firends arrive, i.e next time you are fighting a fleet, try not to comit, sit at 60/70km or so, wait till their fast tacklers (the ceptors, t1 frigs) start to chase you down, burn away from them while shooting them, you will be surprised how many people will die to that, once you comfortable doing that and not diying you will notice that you miss quite a few kills because they turn around beofre they die, so you will need to judge when to turn around and to go in.

This is due the slicer beeing so fast that the only ships which will be fast enough to come after you will have very few ehp and will die quickly.


Thats pretty much how you fight a fleet in a slicer, in most fleet vs fleet fights you will however go unnoticed at 60km and die up close, so try to use it solo or in a very small group.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD8yHVH83TU&feature=youtu.be

from min 7:30 onwards you see some nice/ok usage of the slicer (couldnt find anything else).

Where it truly shines, is in 1v1s tho.

this imo is by far the best normal slicer fit:


[Imperial Navy Slicer, best slcier fit]
Internal Force Field Array I
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Co-Processor II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste

Gistii B-Type 1MN Microwarpdrive
Dread Guristas Warp Disruptor

Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
[empty high slot]
Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S

Small Energy Locus Coordinator II
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator II


Cap without the rep is 2min40, 189 heated dps. In any slicer vs slicer/retribution/coercer fights range is most important, you can easily kie another kiter at 23km so having a 26km range is amazing.

The dg point is for cpu, mwd is for cap.

Cheap version would be this:

[Imperial Navy Slicer, cheap]
Internal Force Field Array I
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Co-Processor II
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II

Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
[empty high slot]
Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S

Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I


You lose the rep (rep most times is used for out of fight repping not in fight), and you lose 2km of range, you still have 2minb42 cap and you hae a 24km range, still 189 dps with heat, if you have cpu implants you can still run it with a repper, you cap will suffer tho, so unless you plan on using a b type mwd i wouldnt use it. Especially as you can rep in stations in highsec.


You can do ab/scarm slicers, but they arent amazing, you can do a 10mn ab + faction scram version, but that needs billions in implants/links to work.


If you can, try to safe some isk and buy yourself a lg snake set, together with a zors it really is very nice (and in rvb you dont lose your pod)


+1 for this post. Very informative and a lot of helpful tips for proper slicer usage. This is exactly what I needed to not just throw my slicers down the drain. Vielan danke
Nihassa
RvB Industries
#17 - 2013-08-04 20:55:58 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:


What the slicer can do however is draw ships of those fleet fight and kill them before their firends arrive, i.e next time you are fighting a fleet, try not to comit, sit at 60/70km or so, wait till their fast tacklers (the ceptors, t1 frigs) start to chase you down, burn away from them while shooting them, you will be surprised how many people will die to that, once you comfortable doing that and not diying you will notice that you miss quite a few kills because they turn around beofre they die, so you will need to judge when to turn around and to go in.

This is due the slicer beeing so fast that the only ships which will be fast enough to come after you will have very few ehp and will die quickly.


Where it truly shines, is in 1v1s tho.




It seems Mr Wolf knows how to fly a slicer =) Definitely for RvB fleets you can use this tactic to great affect, be aware that many pilots assume you will be doing this tho.

- Will have to check out that DG point fit to =)
Jani Padecain
Panama Investment Bank
#18 - 2013-08-04 21:02:49 UTC
Like meany allready pointed out, the navy slicer is not that usefull in fleets. It is good ship I give you that but it is also expensive and paper thin. This makes it really sweet primary on your enemy.

Use it only in one on one situations, there this thing shines.



But not to worry. Tormentor is nice heavy tackle frigate if you don´t have amarr frig lvl5 already trained. Fit the NOS in highslots, mwd and scram in mediums and fill lows and rigs with tank modules. Rest is up to you.
If you do have amarr frig lvl5. Train assault frigates and look into vengeance and retribution, in fit use similar pattern and you can´t go wrong if you are full filling tackling role.

Since I like to be distracted and allways drift away from the orginal post, let me point out the perfect Amarr frigate. The Crusifier. I allways recomend a new player hop into this things. With EWAR you are literally force multiplier. You alone can prevent 3 turret ships from doing any proper damage on your fleet mates. Also you don´t need more than 2days skilltrain from blank character to be effective in this thing not to mention, EWAR frigs are super cheap.
Miles Winter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-08-04 21:56:08 UTC
I've actually tried using the Tormentor and I've found the Punisher a much better frigate for me in practice.
Jani Padecain
Panama Investment Bank
#20 - 2013-08-04 22:25:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jani Padecain
Miles Winter wrote:
I've actually tried using the Tormentor and I've found the Punisher a much better frigate for me in practice.


Bouth can handle the tackling role I just personally like to have utility med for things like tracking disruptors or web. Also you can never count out the few drones for killmail whoring. Tormentor is little easier to maintain under neut pressure since the turret cap usage bonus. It is still hard tho. You need the NOS cyckle for maintaining the point, not the guns.

Only down side in tormentor is that god awfull appereance. "Space makaroni from future". -_-
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