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Resistances, Shield/Armour/Hull
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Madgic
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-08-02 17:42:26 UTC
I fully appreciate this may not be an easy question to answer, however I need to ask it.

The resistances we all covet to boost our EHPs and to make us feel safe, how do they actually work?

For example, A Battle ship sits at lets say 12000 Shields, with a basic passive mod it has 40% resistance to EM, this tells me that if it is hit with EM the effective HP for shields against EM is 12000 + 40% (4800) = 16800. This suggests to me that it would take a shot doing over 16800 alpha to 1 shot shields.

In testing as long as the alpha on the shot is 12001 or more the shields are instantly gone, and the extra bleeds into armour.

The exact same results happen with armour and hull, as long as the alpha is over the size of the ships original HP before Resists it ignores resists.

In tests, we took a Battle ship with Just over 100K EHP and using alpha shots we were able to destroy it with the kill mail showing total damage of just over 25K. (Resists were 76%/78%/82%/79% Shield With the basics using a DC For Armour and hull)

I fully appreciate this is part of the game, and I am told it is not an exploit.

So back to my Question, when dealing with alpha how do Resists work, or do they just plain NOT?
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
#2 - 2013-08-02 17:48:02 UTC
Firstly, damage shown on KMs is screwy and always has been.

That said, it still shows an HP value, not an EHP value. EHP is just a derived convenience for fitting purposes.

If you have 15000 shield HP and 95% resists across the board, your shields are still gone when 15000 HP has been taken from them, it just takes longer to do that damage because the resistances reduce the real damage value.
Madgic
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-08-02 18:03:41 UTC
Ahh, yeah, sorry I'm not explaining exactly right.

Yeah the KM would show only the base damage taken, I get that.

the ship we used was doing 13000 or there about alpha (Showing in stats as such), with 1 shot the shields dropped, therefore ignoring resists. In a number of failed shots it was only hitting for the expected 2000 or so, these shots obviously being subject to the resists as they did not alpha the shields.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#4 - 2013-08-02 18:14:49 UTC
Madgic wrote:
Ahh, yeah, sorry I'm not explaining exactly right.

Yeah the KM would show only the base damage taken, I get that.

the ship we used was doing 13000 or there about alpha (Showing in stats as such), with 1 shot the shields dropped, therefore ignoring resists. In a number of failed shots it was only hitting for the expected 2000 or so, these shots obviously being subject to the resists as they did not alpha the shields.


I've heard that if your alpha is larger than the base "shield" HP, then resists are not taken into account. I have never tested this, but would love to know if it is true.

Cpt Arareb
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2013-08-02 18:22:14 UTC
hmm.. I migth be wrong, but I strongly believe alpha is reduced by resistancesStraight
Yatama Kautsuo
Tencus
#6 - 2013-08-02 18:28:26 UTC
Madgic wrote:
Ahh, yeah, sorry I'm not explaining exactly right.

Yeah the KM would show only the base damage taken, I get that.

the ship we used was doing 13000 or there about alpha (Showing in stats as such), with 1 shot the shields dropped, therefore ignoring resists. In a number of failed shots it was only hitting for the expected 2000 or so, these shots obviously being subject to the resists as they did not alpha the shields.


maybe the weapons did an excellent hit? it's possible for turret based weapons to exceed the shown alphadmg (up to double i believe, but am not sure)
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#7 - 2013-08-02 18:31:09 UTC

After thought:

The max alpha on a SINGLE turret is around 4500 (base damage of 1500 x3 for wrecking shot).
The average alpha for a single 1400mm Arty is going to be about 1500. I

I'm not sure how CCP treats "grouped" weapons... I know we get grouped damage notifications, but I thought the server still calculated damage for each individual turret.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#8 - 2013-08-02 18:31:50 UTC
Yatama Kautsuo wrote:
Madgic wrote:
Ahh, yeah, sorry I'm not explaining exactly right.

Yeah the KM would show only the base damage taken, I get that.

the ship we used was doing 13000 or there about alpha (Showing in stats as such), with 1 shot the shields dropped, therefore ignoring resists. In a number of failed shots it was only hitting for the expected 2000 or so, these shots obviously being subject to the resists as they did not alpha the shields.


maybe the weapons did an excellent hit? it's possible for turret based weapons to exceed the shown alphadmg (up to double i believe, but am not sure)


An excellent hit does 3x Base damage.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#9 - 2013-08-02 18:50:09 UTC
Madgic wrote:
I fully appreciate this may not be an easy question to answer, however I need to ask it.

The resistances we all covet to boost our EHPs and to make us feel safe, how do they actually work?

For example, A Battle ship sits at lets say 12000 Shields, with a basic passive mod it has 40% resistance to EM, this tells me that if it is hit with EM the effective HP for shields against EM is 12000 + 40% (4800) = 16800. This suggests to me that it would take a shot doing over 16800 alpha to 1 shot shields.

In testing as long as the alpha on the shot is 12001 or more the shields are instantly gone, and the extra bleeds into armour.

The exact same results happen with armour and hull, as long as the alpha is over the size of the ships original HP before Resists it ignores resists.

In tests, we took a Battle ship with Just over 100K EHP and using alpha shots we were able to destroy it with the kill mail showing total damage of just over 25K. (Resists were 76%/78%/82%/79% Shield With the basics using a DC For Armour and hull)

I fully appreciate this is part of the game, and I am told it is not an exploit.

So back to my Question, when dealing with alpha how do Resists work, or do they just plain NOT?



Ok if you have pure em alpha of 16800 you would only do 10,080 damage to the shields which have a 40% restist to em.

Are you looking at the alpha on the log and it is over 12001? Because that is the actual damage done not the alpha. To actually do 12001 damage you must have had an raw alpha of 20001.67 of em damage. Only 60% gets through to be actual damage.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#10 - 2013-08-02 22:11:18 UTC
ok you'll need to ensure that the tanking char skill in tactical shield manipulation is at 5 to stop potential bleed through the lower shields.

Then you would have to use an alpha weapon of pure EM damage (missiles) as projectiles never have pure damage. you would also have to ensure that you get a 'true alpha' stike i.e. they all hit the test target at EXACTLY the same time (or potentially within 1 sec of eah other as the server ticks over each second) otherwise the damage would apply seperately for each volley attack.

Then the numbers would have to be as Cearin pointed out above. Unless Griznit has it right about alpha greater than raw HP ignoring resists but that would be a big flaw IMO. However if the testing seemed to back that up I'd raise a bug report and see what CCP had to say about it.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Jani Padecain
Panama Investment Bank
#11 - 2013-08-04 14:11:15 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Madgic wrote:
I fully appreciate this may not be an easy question to answer, however I need to ask it.

The resistances we all covet to boost our EHPs and to make us feel safe, how do they actually work?

For example, A Battle ship sits at lets say 12000 Shields, with a basic passive mod it has 40% resistance to EM, this tells me that if it is hit with EM the effective HP for shields against EM is 12000 + 40% (4800) = 16800. This suggests to me that it would take a shot doing over 16800 alpha to 1 shot shields.

In testing as long as the alpha on the shot is 12001 or more the shields are instantly gone, and the extra bleeds into armour.

The exact same results happen with armour and hull, as long as the alpha is over the size of the ships original HP before Resists it ignores resists.

In tests, we took a Battle ship with Just over 100K EHP and using alpha shots we were able to destroy it with the kill mail showing total damage of just over 25K. (Resists were 76%/78%/82%/79% Shield With the basics using a DC For Armour and hull)

I fully appreciate this is part of the game, and I am told it is not an exploit.

So back to my Question, when dealing with alpha how do Resists work, or do they just plain NOT?



Ok if you have pure em alpha of 16800 you would only do 10,080 damage to the shields which have a 40% restist to em.

Are you looking at the alpha on the log and it is over 12001? Because that is the actual damage done not the alpha. To actually do 12001 damage you must have had an raw alpha of 20001.67 of em damage. Only 60% gets through to be actual damage.



I was in understanding that every turret has a base damage what do not take resists in account. This base damage however was relatively low % of turrets potential volley damage.
The rest of the damage dealt however works just like you descriped. (40% em res = 40% less damage dealt.)

But to be honest. I haven´t never tested this or intrested too much to dive into game mechanics. The guy who ones explained this to me might be wrong.
Job Valador
Professional Amateurs
#12 - 2013-08-04 16:02:20 UTC
my guess is your test target ship is not moving therefore recieveing wrecking hits.

"The stone exhibited a profound lack of movement."
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#13 - 2013-08-04 19:22:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
there was also this rule where when you kill more than 50% hull at once you kill the ship. Would like to have it a bit more documented how damage is applied.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#14 - 2013-08-05 06:41:04 UTC
Jani Padecain wrote:


I was in understanding that every turret has a base damage what do not take resists in account. This base damage however was relatively low % of turrets potential volley damage.
The rest of the damage dealt however works just like you descriped. (40% em res = 40% less damage dealt.)

But to be honest. I haven´t never tested this or intrested too much to dive into game mechanics. The guy who ones explained this to me might be wrong.


The "base" shield and armor damage stat on ammo or whatever is not used in damage calculations. It is simply a calculation already done, that shows you what damage would be dealt to a basic standard t1 shield or armor, given their inherent resists - afaik if shot from a weapon with modifier of 1 (which nobody actually flies with).

If you shoot a volley of 13000 pure kinetic damage, vs a shield with 50% kinetic resist, you will deal 6500 points of actual damage, and if thats the only volley you fired in a kill, then you will see 6500 damage on the KM, not the raw 13000 you shot.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#15 - 2013-08-05 06:46:20 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
there was also this rule where when you kill more than 50% hull at once you kill the ship. Would like to have it a bit more documented how damage is applied.


I've shot things into low structure from full hps many, many times.

I would suggest the people who have "observed" such a phenomenon have simply failed to activate their damage control, or never had one fitted, and melted suddenly as a result of having no resists on hull.
Jani Padecain
Panama Investment Bank
#16 - 2013-08-07 19:56:03 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Jani Padecain wrote:


I was in understanding that every turret has a base damage what do not take resists in account. This base damage however was relatively low % of turrets potential volley damage.
The rest of the damage dealt however works just like you descriped. (40% em res = 40% less damage dealt.)

But to be honest. I haven´t never tested this or intrested too much to dive into game mechanics. The guy who ones explained this to me might be wrong.


The "base" shield and armor damage stat on ammo or whatever is not used in damage calculations. It is simply a calculation already done, that shows you what damage would be dealt to a basic standard t1 shield or armor, given their inherent resists - afaik if shot from a weapon with modifier of 1 (which nobody actually flies with).

If you shoot a volley of 13000 pure kinetic damage, vs a shield with 50% kinetic resist, you will deal 6500 points of actual damage, and if thats the only volley you fired in a kill, then you will see 6500 damage on the KM, not the raw 13000 you shot.



Thanks for clarify this to me.