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Skill training and UNReasonable things
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Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
#41 - 2013-08-02 15:17:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Klandi
BTW all you flamers, I'm not going into the lack of functionality of the skill queue (that's how it is spelt in English) like getting the queue to seamlessly change between characters on the same account (which also should be sorted out) , inserting skills that have prereqs that are in the middle of completing but haven't been completed so you can't insert - all I am asking for is the functionality associated with the time period!

Tippia - so what if I pay for my game time and then do not decide to log in except to skill change? It is my money and game time to do what I want with it. Gone are the days (in my view) that CCP need to worry about people not playing - as long as they keep their direction and motivation - there should be no worries.

I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2013-08-02 15:19:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
I always liked people who believe that because they pay,
they have any rights as individuals.

On one side, i feel glad for the OP,
because there aren't any worse things happening in his life he could be mad about.
Obviously.

On the other side i feel quite sad for the OP,
because he's an immature child grown up with parents that gave him anything
as long as he just held his breath long enough for them to give in.
Obviously.

Seriously! You are a human being.
How do you consider it being mature
to get mad about stuff like this?

I feel sorry for every living being that is forced to live with you.


Imagine somebody started ganking you over and over again.

Would you quit the game?
RaTTuS
BIG
#43 - 2013-08-02 15:20:24 UTC
Quantum Spade wrote:
Who has skills that are 24hrs or less?

Most of mine are at least 4 dayers now, at least the ones I actually want.

I don't agree with the logic that 'I've paid my month I should therefore be able to train for a month at once' since the two aren't even vaguely connected.

I don't believe it really matters at all whether they up it to 48 or higher.

I do ...
http://imgur.com/nxJJVyV

http://eveboard.com/ub/419190933-134.png http://i.imgur.com/kYLoKrM.png

Tom Britt
Different Like You
#44 - 2013-08-02 15:22:41 UTC
OP is absolutely correct! I pays for my subscription, I SHOULD GET EVERYTHING!

I am paying my monthly subscription, how come my PI cant run the entire time? How come I have to empty the moon goo out of that Silo every few days!? How come I have to manually take the cap out of the cooker!!! This is ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE, IM PAYING MONEY, this should all happen automagically.
KnowUsByTheDead
Sunlight...Through The Blight.
#45 - 2013-08-02 15:24:10 UTC
Now on a more serious note. A 24 hour queue, as already stated, promotes the so-called butterfly effect. You may buy something that tips a marketeer over the amount of isk he needs to get his Hictor out, tackling a Titan. The titan pilot then batphones his alliance, while the marketeer batphones his alliance, and before you know it....we could have a 4000-5000 man battle in some random system in space.

At most 48 hours, without losing that possibility of losing the constantly shifting sand of the sandbox, however I still believe 24 hours is more than enough.

Plus if I have to login randomly to drop into my queue, so do you, OP. Almost all of us have had to piece meal together our skill plans from 24 hour increments. You and the rest of the newbies shouldn't get a free pass.

Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the comedian is the only thing that makes sense.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#46 - 2013-08-02 15:24:43 UTC
Klandi wrote:
Tippia - so what if I pay for my game time and then do not decide to log in except to skill change?
Then that's your choice and your waste of money. It still doesn't mean that having people exposed to the game as often as possible and giving the opportunity for serendipitous gameplay is something that should be removed or even reduced.

The only real problem is that they called it a skill queue. So my counter-suggestion is that, instead of increasing the skill queue to however many hours you feel is necessary so you can waste your money, they just change the name of it to reflect what it is: the “skill switch buffer”, and then they leave that buffer at 24 hours since that's more than enough.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-08-02 15:28:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Tippia wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
There's really no reason not to increase it either.
Sure there is: to ensure that you actually play the game every now and then and provide content for other players.

Until the Earth starts spinning at half of one-third speed, the purpose of the skill queue (to ensure you don't have to get up at 3AM to change skills) is amply fulfilled by having a 24h limit. Hell, it could even be reduced to 12h without any real issues.


Normally i'm right in line with your thinking but how is me logging in once every 24 hours to put in a skill and then immediately logging off providing content for anyone? And at this point that's about all I do. Patiently waiting for a better day.

Quite honestly it seems to be a fraudulent attempt at claiming x active players when in reality its far lower.

If they want content provided then they should make content providing activities far less time consuming and punitively punishing. For instance if i'm to war in high sec then give me the ability to do so that doesn't lead to me being ripped off. Or if i'm to suicide gank someone as content then understand its not entertaining enough to have to travel by pod through high sec whenever I just want to chillout and do some missions. I'm not demanding these changes mind you but it's also why I log in and set the que and go play something else. EVE has potential and I train and hope to one day find the right group or changes come to the game to make it worthwhile but by and large EVE is hours upon hours of tedium for a few minutes of thrill.
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#48 - 2013-08-02 15:30:58 UTC
Doc Severide wrote:

The OP has a point. If I pay for a year up front and can't get a refund, whats the problem with having a longer skill queue?

The "problem" is that you get the service you've accepted to pay for.

If you want another and possible better one, then find one or write one.

So OP has no point at all.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2013-08-02 15:33:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Klandi wrote:
Tippia - so what if I pay for my game time and then do not decide to log in except to skill change?
Then that's your choice and your waste of money. It still doesn't mean that having people exposed to the game as often as possible and giving the opportunity for serendipitous gameplay is something that should be removed or even reduced.

The only real problem is that they called it a skill queue. So my counter-suggestion is that, instead of increasing the skill queue to however many hours you feel is necessary so you can waste your money, they just change the name of it to reflect what it is: the “skill switch buffer”, and then they leave that buffer at 24 hours since that's more than enough.
I like the idea, but the name needs improvement.

"Skill buffer" sounds better.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#50 - 2013-08-02 15:34:51 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Normally i'm right in line with your thinking but how is me logging in once every 24 hours to put in a skill and then immediately logging off providing content for anyone?
Because when you log in, you notice that you're all alone in corp chat and your mailbox is clogged up with POS fuel warning notifications… and hey, it's just a quick two minute job, right?
Because you log in and you notice the intel channel chatter about the fool who's trying to jump through the gate to highsec in his brand spanking new (first) Thanatos, so the call for escalation is going out to all and sundry, and hey, who doesn't want a free cap KM?
Because you log in and… holy hell, that's a lot of C-flagged people in local and a lot of swearing from a bunch of people who apparently got ganked right outside your station in their bling ships! Shocked Wonder if there's any loot or T2 wrecks left over…?
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-08-02 15:38:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Deleted for being a waste of breath.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-08-02 15:40:48 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Normally i'm right in line with your thinking but how is me logging in once every 24 hours to put in a skill and then immediately logging off providing content for anyone?
Because when you log in, you notice that you're all alone in corp chat and your mailbox is clogged up with POS fuel warning notifications… and hey, it's just a quick two minute job, right?
Because you log in and you notice the intel channel chatter about the fool who's trying to jump through the gate to highsec in his brand spanking new (first) Thanatos, so the call for escalation is going out to all and sundry, and hey, who doesn't want a free cap KM?
Because you log in and… holy hell, that's a lot of C-flagged people in local and a lot of swearing from a bunch of people who apparently got ganked right outside your station in their bling ships! Shocked Wonder if there's any loot or T2 wrecks left over…?


You're stretching it here Tipp. I understand if you just don't want the timer changed. I'm not mad. Leave it as is. But the three minutes I log in and sit in Jita 4 to set my que isn't providing meaningful content to anyone.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#53 - 2013-08-02 15:45:05 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
You're stretching it here Tipp.
Those are all examples from my personal experience and off the top of my head. I've had corpmates who have gotten caught up in far more interesting shenanigans as they “just quickly logged on for a skill change”.

Quote:
But the three minutes I log in and sit in Jita 4 to set my que isn't providing meaningful content to anyone.
Oh, I'm sure that you're locking out some poor auto-piloting freighter pilot who got ganked on the gate just because of you… P

…but that is stretching it.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-08-02 15:46:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
I, seriously, cannot believe the majority of people in this thread don't want a longer skill queue. A player is either going to play the game or not. Having a 24hr skill queue only means that someone who is unwilling or incapable of playing the game every 24hrs will log on, queue, log off.
…except that you don't have to play the game every 24h. You just have to log on once at some point within 24 hours of your queue expiring. That can still mean you only log in once a month… or hell, even once every two months.

And no, I've seen plenty of examples where people have logged on to just switch their skills, gotten caught up in corp chat or by something else going on, and then stayed logged on. The more opportunities there are for that to happen, the better. I don't want the skill queue to be any longer because it serves its purpose more than perfectly with 24 hours, and it will reduce serendipity if it is made any longer.

So, seriously, believe it.


Quote:
If a person isn't playing religiously they shouldn't be penalized for it.
Good news: they're not. The skill queue ensures this already


Tippia, you're faux arguments do get tiring after a while. What you're implying here is not what I stated, you know it, I know, others know it. Able to play, unable able to play are mutually exclusive. So yeah, it does penalize people who for reasons unto themselves are unable to play or get on every 24hrs. While getting caught up in corp chat & spontaneous pew is good for the people who are playing, it may not be good for the people just wanting to get on to update their queue and then get off to do other things, IDK, like playing with their own rl kids. It's a selfish argument from you & others who somehow put a priority on the game over rl, tbh.


Lucas Kell wrote:

Well My preference is for CCP to work on features that cater to people that play the game rather than people setting months of skills and buggering off. Setting up a subscription limited queue would need them to make the queue work well with potentially years of skills queued. A slightly longer queue that 24 hours would be good, just so you can queue a level 4 and a level 5 more often than not, but there's no benefit to the majority of the active player base to do more than that.
They originally put the queue in so you didn't have to alarm clock for skills, that's good enough IMO and there's plenty of other features that need work well before infinite skill queues.


From a pure business point of view it would be logical to conclude that more accounts would be funded if players could do just that, even from players who play every day, all day seeing how they wouldn't be bothered with managing multiple skill queues requiring daily management.

That you see no benefit is not the fault of those who do want longer skill queues. And you're right, there are a ton of issues that need coding. But, changing x=24 to x="# of subbed hours" doesn't seem like it's going to stretch the available resources of a dev beyond a few minutes. The game already keeps track of subbed period to the second. Not like they'd have to code an entire new routine.

Don't ban me, bro!
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-08-02 15:51:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Tippia wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
You're stretching it here Tipp.
Those are all examples from my personal experience and off the top of my head. I've had corpmates who have gotten caught up in far more interesting shenanigans as they “just quickly logged on for a skill change”.

Quote:
But the three minutes I log in and sit in Jita 4 to set my que isn't providing meaningful content to anyone.
Oh, I'm sure that you're locking out some poor auto-piloting freighter pilot who got ganked on the gate just because of you… P

…but that is stretching it.



That's why I love your posts Tippia, new and inventive ways to grief. From this day forward I will be permanently taking up 1 slot in Jita just on the chance it prevents an auto piloting freighter from getting in. 1/2000th of the Jita DoS attack. The butterfly effect. I was there. I lived it.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-08-02 15:51:57 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Since I work during the day and only get to play eve around 3-4 days a week, I for one would love a 48 hr queue. I missed some training time last night because of the queue running out and the next skill I needed to train had one that I was currently training as a pre-req. Yes, I could have put a multi-day skill at the end, but that doesn't exactly help in the short term when I don't have any plans to train that skill. (and for the record, yes I do remember learning skills, they sucked)

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#57 - 2013-08-02 15:53:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Ah yes, as one who remembers being up at 3AM and taking the risk to log in from work, all to keep skill training going, the que is one of the best changes they made.

Over the years there were times when all I logged in for was the que.


I would hope the que is expanded for a month too. Sometimes things happen that keep you from the computer for weeks. Like moving for example. Sometimes projects and school, and let's not forget the soldiers who get deployed to the field for months at a time.

Funny thing is, if CCP likes money, they should take note. If I had to be away from the game for 6 months, and could not find a skill that I wanted that could take so long, I would be inclined not to pay for a sub that I am not using. But if I could set such a long que, I would be inclined to keep it going. Heck it would be perfect to do like a "fire and forget" que on an alt. Such that if I wanted an alt for a specific role, lay out the que from careful planning ahead of time, set it up along the course of a chosen role or ship (or certificate train), then have all that training done on return after a hiatus. In this case, thats extra money coming in instead of me being like "well, no point in paying for subs that I can't use".

The OP is making the argument that because the month is paid for, the que should be a month. I am making the point that because it could bring more months being paid for (profit?), the que should be expanded.

The Que is a way of using a sub that one is not logging into for circumstances beyond our control. If it were expanded or even indefinite, I think it would be good for everybody and CCP too.


What monument do we have to shoot to get this changed?

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#58 - 2013-08-02 15:53:23 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
I, seriously, cannot believe the majority of people in this thread don't want a longer skill queue.


Many of us don't believe in asking for more and more and more all the time. I don't believe for a second that in the day and age of mobil technology, logging into a video game you like to play once every 24 hours is some big burden.

Sometimes if i haven't set a long skill, I don't log in (like one time a situation came up at my job that prevented me from going home for like 3 days) and i lose some training time. Big whoop, it just means delaying a slight bit of gratification, not the end of the world.

If EVE had 2 year skill ques and 1 hour jump clones I'd use em, but I see no need for major changes, the current system just takes some effort and some planning, which is good because EVE isn't your run of the mill instant gratification game to begin with.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#59 - 2013-08-02 15:53:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mr Kidd wrote:
Tippia, you're faux arguments do get tiring after a while. What you're implying here is not what I stated, you know it, I know, others know it. Able to play, unable able to play are mutually exclusive. So yeah, it does penalize people who for reasons unto themselves are unable to play or get on every 24hrs.
No, it doesn't, because the skill queue means you don't have to log in ever 24h. That's where your entire reasoning careens off the tracks.

And just because it is absolutely impossible for some to get caught up that one time for some OOG reason doesn't mean that at other times, and/or for other players, that supposed “quick skill change” doesn't lead to a surprise session.

Quote:
It's a selfish argument from you & others who somehow put a priority on the game over rl, tbh.
…you mean kind of like how “adjust the game to how I [don't] want to play it” is based on nothing but selfishness. If it's so small and quick that they stand zero change of getting caught up in the game, then it's so small and quick that doing it within 24h of the end of a skill is something that is trivially included in the day. No RL kids will be hurt in the process, I promise.

…in fact, that's the kind of “not right now” problems the skill queue has already solved perfectly with its 24h length.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#60 - 2013-08-02 16:03:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
Tippia, you're faux arguments do get tiring after a while. What you're implying here is not what I stated, you know it, I know, others know it. Able to play, unable able to play are mutually exclusive. So yeah, it does penalize people who for reasons unto themselves are unable to play or get on every 24hrs.
No, it doesn't, because the skill queue means you don't have to log in ever 24h. That's where your entire reasoning careens off the tracks.

And just because it is absolutely impossible for some to get caught up that one time for some OOG reason doesn't mean that at other times, and/or for other players, that supposed “quick skill change” doesn't lead to a surprise session.

Quote:
It's a selfish argument from you & others who somehow put a priority on the game over rl, tbh.
…you mean kind of like how “adjust the game to how I [don't] want to play it” is based on nothing but selfishness. If it's so small and quick that they stand zero change of getting caught up in the game, then it's so small and quick that doing it within 24h of the end of a skill is something that is trivially included in the day. No RL kids will be hurt in the process, I promise.

…in fact, that's the kind of “not right now” problems the skill queue has already solved perfectly with its 24h length.




You overlook the fact that the skill system is a selling point and the que takes a huge bite out of a very big problem encountered with MMOs.

That problem is the "he who has the least life wins" problem. What I mean by least life is, he who has nothing better to do can win over those who have to pay their own bills, perform some service to their country, take care of family matters, etc. Not everybody can be a neckbeard who can log on all day every day. When the player who has to struggle for time is getting pwned by the basement dwellers who act superior simply because they have more time, they leave.

The SP system is built against that, and the que is a big help for people who have to contend with the real world.

I might have seen you in WoW, covered in epics from running the same instances over and over and over.....

Bring back DEEEEP Space!