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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

First post First post First post
Author
Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#1281 - 2013-08-02 09:39:14 UTC
Goody Twoshoes Virpio wrote:
There seems to be an error. The ishtar has lost a fitting slot whereas no other ship has. This is disappointing for me since I use it as a brawler and use the current 2 utilty highs for small NOS.

This is necessary because it's unable to maintain a 2-MAR tank with just 1 medium cap booster (none of the gallente ships are).

Every other race of ships have utility slots and invariably carry neuts. As a result, an active armour tank is now unviable in the ishtar.

May we have our high slow back please? or perhaps better still, replace it with a mid slot?



There are no other drone ships, all drone ships get -1 fitting slot, this has been said in EVERY rebalance thread related to ships so far. Are you blind?
Goody Twoshoes Virpio
Embers Children
#1282 - 2013-08-02 09:51:57 UTC
Doed wrote:
Goody Twoshoes Virpio wrote:
There seems to be an error. The ishtar has lost a fitting slot whereas no other ship has. This is disappointing for me since I use it as a brawler and use the current 2 utilty highs for small NOS.

This is necessary because it's unable to maintain a 2-MAR tank with just 1 medium cap booster (none of the gallente ships are).

Every other race of ships have utility slots and invariably carry neuts. As a result, an active armour tank is now unviable in the ishtar.

May we have our high slow back please? or perhaps better still, replace it with a mid slot?



There are no other drone ships, all drone ships get -1 fitting slot, this has been said in EVERY rebalance thread related to ships so far. Are you blind?


Forgive me no, I am not blind. I am aware of the archaic and outdated view that a drone bay compensates for a slot. There's probably not much point in going into the rights or wrongs of that here.

I prefer to deal in facts.

The fact of the matter is that pre-change all HACs had 15 slots.
The fact of the matter is that the proposed Ishtar has 14 slots.
The fact of the matter is that there is no history of players complaining that the current ishtar is overpowered. In fact the vast majority of complaints about it are that it lacks enough CPU to fit a meaningful number of drone mods so it has been unable to play to its strengths.

Here we have an opportunity to rectify that, but it seems to me that the ship is being, in relation to others, nerfed.

Let's keep it polite, sir.
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
SCRUBS.
#1283 - 2013-08-02 09:54:21 UTC
To quote myself,

Because having 500 drone dps without spending a single CPU or PG is SO not worth having one less slot, right guise?

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}

Goody Twoshoes Virpio
Embers Children
#1284 - 2013-08-02 10:07:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Goody Twoshoes Virpio
Hannott Thanos wrote:
To quote myself,

Because having 500 drone dps without spending a single CPU or PG is SO not worth having one less slot, right guise?


I don't think this is a valid argument. If a drone ship puts out combat drones it cannot also field neutraliser, ecm, web or any other kind of drone.

However, a ship that uses its guns/missiles for dps, has a utility slot AND has a (albeit smaller) drone bay is able to field DPS, EWAR and whatever the utility slot can provide.

If the ishtar was able to field 5 large drones AND 5 small ones at the same time, I think you'd have a point. But it does not.

The idea that a drone bay is worthy of a reduced number of slots comes from the very beginnings of Eve time, when there was not a limit on the number of drones you could field - you could just dump your drone bay on the field.

This worked to the advantage of ships with large drone bays so the -1 slot was justified.

Since the introduction of the limit on the number of drones fielded by a ship, small drone bays have doubled in power (the drone interfacing skill was introduced) and the comparative advantage of a large drone bay vanished. It simply became a store of spare drones rather than a soure of combined DPS and EWAR.

The -1 slot is no longer justified when current eve mechanics are considered.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#1285 - 2013-08-02 10:10:30 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
To quote myself,

Because having 500 drone dps without spending a single CPU or PG is SO not worth having one less slot, right guise?
500? You, Sir, are doing it wrong.

I love the Ishtar but I'm not going to argue that it needs more than what it has at this point. One less high if it's going to get anymore mids or lows.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
420 MLG TWINTURBO 3000 EMPIRE ALLIANCE RELOADED
#1286 - 2013-08-02 10:12:24 UTC
I think the fact that the Ishtar can do 475 DPS before any mods are fitted to the ship probably explains why it has 1 less slot.

Considering thats more than some HACs get after 2 Damage mods and high damage ammo I don't think its unreasonable.
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
SCRUBS.
#1287 - 2013-08-02 10:12:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannott Thanos
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
To quote myself,

Because having 500 drone dps without spending a single CPU or PG is SO not worth having one less slot, right guise?
500? You, Sir, are doing it wrong.

I love the Ishtar but I'm not going to argue that it needs more than what it has at this point. One less high if it's going to get anymore mids or lows.

Sorry, 475.2 dps, was an approximate.

Notice the "without spending a single CPU or PG".

With mods, of course, a LOT more dps.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}

Goody Twoshoes Virpio
Embers Children
#1288 - 2013-08-02 10:15:50 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
To quote myself,

Because having 500 drone dps without spending a single CPU or PG is SO not worth having one less slot, right guise?
500? You, Sir, are doing it wrong.

I love the Ishtar but I'm not going to argue that it needs more than what it has at this point. One less high if it's going to get anymore mids or lows.


It's not getting any more mids or lows - it's just losing a high.
It's gaining a turret, but at the expense of the blaster dps bonus so that cancels out. But the extra turret (to recover the dps) consumes the last remaining high slot.

So in effect, the ishtar loses 2 utility slots.

In return it gets the dominix-style garde bonus and the navy vexor-style ogre speed/tracking bonus.

Viewed in isolation this might be seen as fair, but in relation to all other hac changes it's still a nerf.

Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
SCRUBS.
#1289 - 2013-08-02 10:17:34 UTC
Goody Twoshoes Virpio wrote:

Viewed in isolation this might be seen as fair, but in relation to all other hac changes it's still a nerf.


Yeah. That must be why Ishtar went up 30 mill in jita right after announcing round 2 of rebalance. Because it got nerfed

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}

Goody Twoshoes Virpio
Embers Children
#1290 - 2013-08-02 10:20:59 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
I think the fact that the Ishtar can do 475 DPS before any mods are fitted to the ship probably explains why it has 1 less slot.

Considering thats more than some HACs get after 2 Damage mods and high damage ammo I don't think its unreasonable.


This high damage comes at a very real cost, as all drone-ship pilots understand:

1. high dps drones are either very slow or stationary - so you MUST have your target webbed and scrammed (2 mid slots + cap + tank) otherwise you will do zero dps.

2. you rarely have 5 drones on the field once a fight starts - the other guy shoots them so you have to continually withdraw and relaunch them. This halves the effective dps. So that 475 is really in the region of 250.

This is why the killboards are not littered with solo-ishtar kills. It's not an easy ship to score a kill with. The changes will make it harder, when compared to other hacs to score such kills.

Goody Twoshoes Virpio
Embers Children
#1291 - 2013-08-02 10:25:53 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Goody Twoshoes Virpio wrote:

Viewed in isolation this might be seen as fair, but in relation to all other hac changes it's still a nerf.


Yeah. That must be why Ishtar went up 30 mill in jita right after announcing round 2 of rebalance. Because it got nerfed


What happened to the price of other HACs?

We are comparing HAC vs HAC here, not the overall utility of a HAC. I fully understand (as does every other drone-ship jockey) the value of the inherent tracking and range bonuses that have been proposed.

Ishtars will be in demand for mission running as they always have been, because of the bonus to sentries. My post is about relative solo pvp utility, and I am keen to see that the ishtar's utility for that purpose is not downgraded.

The current changes, in my view, threaten that. Because the ability to field/counter a neut is far more important than a few dps from your drones.

Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
SCRUBS.
#1292 - 2013-08-02 10:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannott Thanos
http://notorious.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18897640

http://notorious.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18897804

They are littered with dual Vexor kills though.

Edit, looks like linking does not work. Copy/paste the text to the browser.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}

Goody Twoshoes Virpio
Embers Children
#1293 - 2013-08-02 10:30:41 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
http://notorious.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18897640

http://notorious.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18897804

They are littered with dual Vexor kills though.

Edit, looks like linking does not work. Copy/paste the text to the browser.


It's always nice to see a drake go down in flames - nice kill Lol
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#1294 - 2013-08-02 10:32:19 UTC
Drop bouncers at 100k and turn the MWD on and orbit at 7k. You are now hitting with 700 dps from a freaking cruiser 100k out.
The Ishtar is getting bonuses to how most people used them.
Goody Twoshoes Virpio
Embers Children
#1295 - 2013-08-02 10:42:21 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Drop bouncers at 100k and turn the MWD on and orbit at 7k. You are now hitting with 700 dps from a freaking cruiser 100k out.
The Ishtar is getting bonuses to how most people used them.


I agree that the ishtar is getting a boost, as are all HACs.

The strategy you offer as an example only works in a fixed emplacement like a gate when you are in a gang and other people have tackle. If you try this solo, your target will be gone before you're anywhere near enough to tackle him.

My post is specifically about the fact that the solo pvp capability of the ishtar has been compromised by this proposal as it is now overly vulnerable to neutralisers (as is the vexor, thorax, deimos etc).

This leaves a gallente pilot with no cruiser hull capable of withstanding anyone with a neutraliser (everyone else) unless he takes a vexor navy issue or sacrifices 25% of his blaster dps.

On a side note, there are literally zero gallente cruisers that do turret DPS and have a utility slot. For that you need to trade up to the brutix. This is a shame, and in my view an oversight.

Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
SCRUBS.
#1296 - 2013-08-02 10:50:28 UTC
Learn to fit Autocannons on your unbonused Hybrid hulls.

[NEW Ishtar, solo brawl]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption Script

Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Ogre II x5


835 dps

They are dead before you run out of cap.

I have killed Falcons solo with Vexor while permajammed. Just bump them out of alignment and let the drones do their thing

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}

HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#1297 - 2013-08-02 10:52:17 UTC
None of the ranged HACs work very well solo, that wouldn't matter but the Deimos(t) sucks. Using a neut on a Ishtar isn't a good idea most of the time because it doesn't need to use as much cap as what is neuting it in most cases. Just because it's a Gallente ship doesn't mean you need to run active tank.
Goody Twoshoes Virpio
Embers Children
#1298 - 2013-08-02 10:58:35 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Learn to fit Autocannons on your unbonused Hybrid hulls.

[NEW Ishtar, solo brawl]

I have killed Falcons solo with Vexor while permajammed. Just bump them out of alignment and let the drones do their thing


It's a sweet fit, I'll give you that. But without an armour repairer I fear it's dead to a vagabond.

I don't know whether there's another way, but the way I counter vagas when in a slower ship is just to burn for them continuously.

Eventually they either warp out or run out of cap, at which point they're dead.

Having said that, I guess a set of gardes will keep a vaga frightened, since they now have a tracking and range bonus - are these ships on sisi yet?


Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
SCRUBS.
#1299 - 2013-08-02 11:03:47 UTC
Goody Twoshoes Virpio wrote:

It's a sweet fit, I'll give you that. But without an armour repairer I fear it's dead to a vagabond.

I don't know whether there's another way, but the way I counter vagas when in a slower ship is just to burn for them continuously.

Eventually they either warp out or run out of cap, at which point they're dead.

Having said that, I guess a set of gardes will keep a vaga frightened, since they now have a tracking and range bonus - are these ships on sisi yet?


Danny John-Peter would have a word with you. The new Vaga apparently cant kill anything, so I'm good I guess.

Not on Sisi afaik.

Dropping Gardes and then flying off is a great tactic. Either he will be too far from you and the drones to do or take any damage, or he will be close to you and take full Garde damage and/or get tackled.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}

Enthes goldhart
Brittas Empire
Trigger Happy.
#1300 - 2013-08-02 11:31:01 UTC
I love most of these changes, especially the sensor strength increase.
I feel the deimos still needs its utility high for nos so it can brawl without its guns getting turned off.