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[Odyssey 1.1] Command Ships

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Sylana Sif
Missing the point
#461 - 2013-08-02 00:37:53 UTC
I hope my question doesn't get lost in the bulk of replys

So you guys discussed changing the Model of the command ships, i fly Absolution and the Damnation on my main, they are both awesome ships and i LOVE the prophecy hull, can you please either confirm/negate my suspicions so i can have my last few weeks in damnation/absolution before you swap it for harbringers hull if indeed that has become more then just a discussion?
Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#462 - 2013-08-02 00:38:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Naween
Sigras: tbh i wouldnt mind something like that. at the moment my damnation only has a civilian gun on it to KM whore anyway. so it isnt like the dps is all that important to me at least. My job is to give boosts, and be a brick. if they said, no you cant have any guns or drones. i would say ok.. do i get a nice tank? I do.. cool beans I am happy.

ask any of my alliance mates, i rarely even km whore in my logis prefering to do the job i am there for.. rep!

edit, seriously that word is censured?! *snorts* good thing i never posted with my scanning alt then
Sigras
Conglomo
#463 - 2013-08-02 00:39:37 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
Sigras wrote:
I'm Down wrote:
The only time a resist bonus actually matters the way the Devs run numbers is when you start at 0% resist across the board. This hardly ever happens as a matter of base statistics on all ships.

Furthering the problem is Tech 2 resistances. A Tech 2 ship with a 20% resist bonus does not actually receive 20% less damage than a comparable tech 1 ship. Instead, it receives 20% less damage than a comparable ship with the same base resistances. 2 totally different mechanics at play.

How is this bad for Tech 2 balance. Well lets further examine the claymore / nighthawk conundrum I posted about earlier.

Claymore without any bonuses has 220 total resist for an average of 55
Nighthawk with bonuses has a 240 total resist for an average of 60% damage reduction

Lets use really lazy math since it provides easy to work with numbers

100 damage applied on the claymore nets 45 damage
100 damage applied on the nighthawk nets 40 damage.

2 ways of looking at this:

Offensively, I have 12.5% more projected damage versus the claymore.*

Defensively, the nighthawk is receiving 8.9% less damage than the claymore.*

*this is a ratio mechanic that causes 2 different values. It seems weird at first until you realize how the wording plays.
One is how much more damage is the claymore taking compared to the NH (ratio of C:NH). The other is how much less damage is the Nighthawk taking compared to the Claymore (ratio of NH:C)

Both ways show that in no way do you approach 20% reduced damage, and certainly not higher than 20% reduced damage. However the Developers will try to convince you that this is not true because in Imagination land, they are allowed to assume all resistances are 0 to start with and there's no such thing as diminished returns in EVE.

Fact is, the gaps that Caldari and Gallente have are far inferior to the more spread, resist gap fills of the Amarr and Matar. When you make 2 similar ships with other drastically severe balance problems like the NH and Claymore, this resist gap really shows how bad the balance is.

So glad our developers can post on here how smart they are about their mechanics and how closely they sit to each other in the office to assure us they know what they're doing. Maybe you should learn core mechanics and fundamentals of the game first.

This is just another in a long line of failures.

the above is only true if you continue along the idiotic line of thinking that you fit both ships the same way. All you did was point out that there is an EM hole that needs to be plugged by a hardener in the NH. I was also going to point out that a single EM hardener on the NH has a much better effect at raising the "average resists" than does a kinetic hardener on the claymore, but it doesnt matter because this argument is moot.

Not to mention that the NH has 17% more shields than the claymore but you know, that fact doesnt fit your pre conceived idea, so i guess you chose to exclude it.

TL;DR
there is more to a ship than its bonuses, perhaps you should check out the other stats.


And the claymore doesn't have an extra mid for a shield extender or hardener? Guess that 6% from a PDS in the NH low will account for that huh?.... lets see 2100 * 1.25 * 1.20 *1.20 = 3750 bonus shield for the claymore without even adding in gang bonuses....

Lets also not consider the fact that the NH has to actually burn a mid slot for a dedicated EM hardener that has no benefits other than to EM... Where as a Claymore can use that same slot for an Invul if it so desires because it doesn't have that hole. Lets see, gaining 30% across the board for a slot or 55% for one...

The point is that these arguments are all moot; the only thing that matters is the stats of the ships once they are fully fitted. Comparing bonuses in a vacuum is as stupid as it sounds.
MrDiao
Fuxi Legion
Fraternity.
#464 - 2013-08-02 00:43:54 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Damnation:
10% bonus to all Armor hitpoints


What do you mean by "all" Armor hitpoints? Is there something like "shield armor hitpoints" or "structure armor hitpoints"? lol
Draekas Darkwater
Frank Exchange of Views
#465 - 2013-08-02 00:46:19 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Draekas Darkwater wrote:
Obviously. The whole command ship name is basically a misnomer, they aren't command ships, they're fleet booster ships.

Yet Fozzie still mentioned that they are popular among FCs for thier resiliance. T3s are as well for the same reason. I simply mention that in today's EVE, and the EVE of the future where fleets keep getting larger, perhaps there is need for a real C&C ship to service the real FCs in EVE. Something you can reliably command a large fleet in, without it being a solo pwnmobile or blapped off the field.

Actually, the only way for a FC to survive a blob now is a capital ship. Giving more and more hp to comand ship for the sake of them surviving a blob focused fire can only lead to absurd things or this capital comand ship solution.


Is that a real problem though? T3s and the like are already being fit with greater than battleship EHP to try to survive such fights. As long as the ship can't do much else other than target ships reliably, move with the fleet type/comp that suits it, and is extremely unlikely to die while still supported, isn't there a place in EVE for such a ship for real FCs?

Just throwing ideas out there, but lets say:
Cruiser sized hull for basic characteristics (speed/align/sig/ect)
~ million EHP, very high resists
1 High for KM whoring or whatever.
1 or 2 mids only for a prop mod or whatnot.
1 or 2 lows for a DC, local rep, whatever.
immunity to ECM and damps
250km locking range
high native sensor resolution

Basically a ship that can't do anything much itself, but is a reliable platform for calling the shots from.

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#466 - 2013-08-02 00:54:33 UTC
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#467 - 2013-08-02 01:29:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Ersahi Kir
Sigras wrote:
Role Bonus: Immune to Electronic Sensor Effects (E-war, Sensor Dampening, remote sensor boosting), Can fit up to three Warfare Link modules
,,,
This would be a great ship for the FC to fly allowing him to keep tabs on his fleet from one end of the grid to the other without worrying about disruption; also with 2 resist bonuses and 8 tank slots this thing is going to be around for a while. The trade off being that this ship is about the speed and agility of a battleship.


That would give way too much advantage to sentry drone fleets. Having a unjammable/dampable drone assist means the only thing you can do to distrupt the perfectly coordinated assisted sentries is headshot the FC. If you want to do that now you have to commit a supercap to the field which raises the amount your committed to the battle.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Actually, the only way for a FC to survive a blob now is a capital ship. Giving more and more hp to comand ship for the sake of them surviving a blob focused fire can only lead to absurd things or this capital comand ship solution.


The only fleet comp I've seen that could do this is a "sit in a bubble" domi fleet. Every other fleet comp needs to be much more mobile, and a carrier bound FC is going to be far more likely to get caught in a bubble than a battlecruiser bound one.

I'm not saying that no one out there does this, but I've just never seen the possibility outside of a domi fleet.
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
#468 - 2013-08-02 01:42:53 UTC
Is the tech 3 off grid booster per level or a set amount? I am wondering it this is going to change the meta of off grid boosting or not.

Blasters for life

https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#469 - 2013-08-02 01:44:06 UTC
Eos is going to be awesome.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#470 - 2013-08-02 01:44:10 UTC
Phox Jorkarzul wrote:
Is the tech 3 off grid booster per level or a set amount? I am wondering it this is going to change the meta of off grid boosting or not.


The Warfare Processors will now provide a 2% increase in the strength of warfare links per level of their racial defensive subsystem skill. They will also now provide bonuses to three different types of gang links:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3426016
Draekas Darkwater
Frank Exchange of Views
#471 - 2013-08-02 01:47:27 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Role Bonus: Immune to Electronic Sensor Effects (E-war, Sensor Dampening, remote sensor boosting), Can fit up to three Warfare Link modules
,,,
This would be a great ship for the FC to fly allowing him to keep tabs on his fleet from one end of the grid to the other without worrying about disruption; also with 2 resist bonuses and 8 tank slots this thing is going to be around for a while. The trade off being that this ship is about the speed and agility of a battleship.


That would give way too much advantage to sentry drone fleets. Having a unjammable/dampable drone assist means the only thing you can do to distrupt the perfectly coordinated assisted sentries is headshot the FC. If you want to do that now you have to commit a supercap to the field which raises the amount your committed to the battle.


Isn't that more of a problem to do with assigned drones in general being overpowered in today's EVE?
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#472 - 2013-08-02 02:20:35 UTC
Hortoken Wolfbrother wrote:
Edward Pierce wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
CCP Fozzie suggest shield boost amount because it matches up nicely with other Minmatar ships, provides some fun new potential, and is relatively low risk because of its small impact at larger scales.

You already got quoted by CCP Rise saying the shield boost amount has a small impact at larger scales, and yet you still give these ships whose entire purpose is to grant benefits in larger scales this weaker bonus?

Can we please address this disparity between local rep bonus and resist bonus already? It keeps being put off and it has affected every re-balancing effort except Cruisers and Destroyers. Stop kicking the can and do something about it already.

Exactly. Needs to be repeated. Active bonuses are useless for large fleets. Its fine to put it on one ship from the races, but putting it on both ships is really a dumb decision.


There's nothing to address. There is no fix for Local rep bonus to bring it in line with global resist bonus.

What really is annoying is the Racial mindset. And i really don't understand where it's coming from.
I guess Gallente and Minmatar are very ship repair oriented. Ironically enough, when you get to large fleet levels it is exactly the opposite.

Let go of the Idea that Shield Boost and Armor Repair are racially oriented. The only reason Shield Boost is Minmatar flavor is because you guys keep putting these crappy bonuses on the Minmatar ships over and over again!!!!! Same for Gallente and Armor Rep!!!!

STAHP IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, Use a bonus that enhances Armor Rigs instead. Then people can decide if they want specific resists, armor amount or armor rep/shield boost bonuses for themselves. Not be forced into one by the ship bonuses. This is an issue throughout the game. Ships are limited in scope so dramatically just because of this one bonus type.The biggest problem with the Rep bonus is that it's not a stand alone bonus. It REQUIRES addition supplemental fitting with resistance and capacitor modules.

Here's a list of the bonuses found on command ships. See if you can spot any that need additional and very specific modification to be functional.
Armor Resist
Energy Turret Capacitor Usage
Energy Turret ROF
Energy Turret Damage
Armor Hit Points
HAM/HM Velocity
HAM/HM Damage(including Kinetic only)
HAM/HM Explosion Radius
HAM/HM Explosion Velocity
Shield Resist
Hybrid Optimal
Hybrid Damage
Hybrid ROF
Hybrid Falloff
Hybrid Tracking
Drone Damage/HP
Drone Tracking/Speed
Projectile Damage
Projectile ROF
Projectile Falloff

None of these bonuses require additional fitting to be useful. They are effective in and of themselves alone. Rep Bonuses however are required to fit rigs,resists and capacitor (unless ancillary). Sure the weapon bonuses Narrow the scope of your ship to that weapon system, but Rep bonuses (if utilized) narrow your ship to a specific tank, they require the use of a module slot and they compete with either weapon upgrades or tackle/ewar for additional modules slots just to make itself viable.

Think of it this way, Why would you spend the 30+ days to train a ship skill to 5 when you're not going to even use one of the bonuses? Just leave it at level 3 or 4 and you'll be only slightly less effective.

Either Remove Local Repair bonuses or distribute them across all of the races. Or, like I keep mentioning, apply the bonus to something with a lot larger scope such as Armor or Shield rigs. Rigs are a great place to apply them because of the already built in limitations, but also give you the ability to build your ship the way you want. They would only need very mild balancing to adjust some numbers that might be out of line when bonused.

There is no fix for Rep vs Resist. It is long past time to do something different.
Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#473 - 2013-08-02 02:35:03 UTC
Erutpar Ambient: stop making sense. you know CCP wont listen to anyone making a rational and well thought our argument ^^
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#474 - 2013-08-02 02:43:37 UTC
I would like to note that in exchange for no local buffer tanking bonuses, the Gallente and Minmatar ships get bonuses to both tanking links, and to links that decrease incoming damage. Skirmish links increase speed, and by doing that increase transversal and decrease the amount of tank needed. Secondly it decreases the signature decreasing foes ability to track and apply damage. Thus, in exchange for a local tank bonus, they gain access to the most powerful links, and a heightened ability to mitigate damage.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#475 - 2013-08-02 02:59:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
similarly fit, (3x LSE, 2x invuln, 2x MCDFE) the vulture gets 155k ehp. so between T2 resists and not, it's 20k ehp.

claymore/vulture combo being dictated by 6 mids and to cover siege + info + skirmish...

I'm not upset, considering the ability to 100mn AB and actually satisfy an on-grid boosting role first and foremost.

reiterating my prediction the nighthawk will be a highsec mission queen, largely a pretty drake with 1 link used by pve corps. also: i never liked the ferox hull's look with its tapered hindquarters.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#476 - 2013-08-02 03:01:57 UTC
FINALLY MY MISSILE CLAYMORE OH SWEET JESUS YES
Allandri
Liandri Industrial
#477 - 2013-08-02 03:13:01 UTC
Is it possible to switch the cargo bays of the Nighthawk and Vulture?
Cethion
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#478 - 2013-08-02 03:15:17 UTC
I'm happy to see that command ships are getting some love and rebalancing. It seems that the Astarte will now put out more dps than a Proteus, which is pretty exciting and worrisome. I'm also looking forward to trying out the new Absolution.

However, that being said, I'm still not happy with the gallante command ships still being both active tanked. Especially with the coming local rep bonuses they'll be beastly solo boats, but I hate a wasted bonus in a fleet.

Co-host of Down the Pipe
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#479 - 2013-08-02 03:21:29 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
I would like to note that in exchange for no local buffer tanking bonuses, the Gallente and Minmatar ships get bonuses to both tanking links, and to links that decrease incoming damage. Skirmish links increase speed, and by doing that increase transversal and decrease the amount of tank needed. Secondly it decreases the signature decreasing foes ability to track and apply damage. Thus, in exchange for a local tank bonus, they gain access to the most powerful links, and a heightened ability to mitigate damage.


You can apply the speed and signature bonus to the Caldari and Minmatar ships, but you can't apply the Resistance bonus to the Gallente and Minmatar ships.

Both Information and Skirmish bonus damage application and damage mitigation in different ways.
Skirmish boosts are more passive. Information boosts affect more activated modules.

You can compare them to each other but not to other bonuses. You can only compare bonuses to other bonuses.

The disparity still stands.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#480 - 2013-08-02 03:28:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
http://i.imgur.com/msIDtqh.jpg (vulture should show info links but i derpd.)

vulture has more ehp but claymore has the better speed and sig. my gut is telling me they might end up even-ish... well, claymore will be better. T2 resists or HP bonus on this claymore would be clearly OP. not upset about it anymore.

claymore's tightest orbit at full AB speed is 3.676 km, vulture's is 4.186 km... and the claymore is doing 10% higher speed
lol and it shoots missiles now, that's kinda beast...

speed/sig for claymore is 3.68, vulture is 2.82. (wow/sorry, i'm a little late to the minmatar thing.)

I'd be tempted to drop an LSE for a LSB, considering the upcoming local rep change, and its bonus. kinda.

i... don't even care about the guns.

also. low-grade snakes gets the speeds up, but i'm not dumping that much ISK into a welp command ship and clone Lol

HOWEVER. if you want to get gucci about it ... considering its bonus and the upcoming local rep change...

speed/sig = 4.500 Shocked

alternate, low budget local/active rep claymore http://i.imgur.com/c1WTMrr.jpg

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)