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[Odyssey 1.1] Command Ships

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Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#221 - 2013-08-01 17:27:28 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Lilan Kahn wrote:
slepnir also taking massive dps nerf

Barely. less than one whole turret. That's less than a 4% DPS nerf, with so much more utility.


Sleps getting a 100% damage bonus to 5 guns, that = 10 guns worth of damage, thats more than 1.5 turets worth of damage lost.


That's not how damage bonuses work good sir.

It's 11.25 effective turrets after this proposal.


I would like to ask if that is the best choice completely, considering it will have the largest alpha of any medium weapon ship. I'm just concerned about the double damage bonuses. Would you perhaps consider changing one to RoF?

I know you're in balancing, I know you probably know better than me. I just want to raise my concerns about that much alpha strike. I know it's not large arty levels of damage, but it also isn't large arty levels of tracking.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#222 - 2013-08-01 17:28:48 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Each race should have one command ship that has a bonus to local reps and one that has a passive tank bonus!What?


Rather not. Amarr is quite bad at passive tanking because lack of med slots required for shield tanking. And you can't passive tank a armor tanker.


I don't think you get passive tanking. Passive tanking = no repair, so any armour buffer tank is passive tanking. Amarr is by far the best race at passive tanking.

I think you are thinking of shield "passive" tanking which relies on shield regen. Whether it is actually passive tanking depends on how you define passive. The shield is regening, so its certainly not fully passive, but the player is not controlling it so it is passive on the pilots part.


Armor doesn't regen, so if you passive tank armor you're done after one fight, win or lose. You have to go back to a friendly station to repair, and that could be far away. If you passive tank shield you can survive in enemy space forever and keep killing until someone finally beats you.

Jesus.

Stop confusing buffer tanking with passive tanking.

You also need to realize that buffer tanks are extremely effective on the right ship, but someone in your gang needs to have remote repair (preferably a logistics of some sort, even a logistics frigate will do) for in between fight repair work.


I vote that 'passive shield tanking' (i.e. SPRs, purgers, etc.) be renamed to recharge tanking.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#223 - 2013-08-01 17:30:05 UTC
Ariesen Serenity wrote:
But the Sleip is also losing 15 drone bandwidth. So that's a small dps downgrade also (added in to the 96%)

I will admit that I did not notice that. In the "best" scenario you had 3 mediums and 2 lights, and now are downgraded to 5 lights. That is a real decrease to DPS, if small. that does also assume that you never use ECM drones or the sort, or just carry warriors for some protection against frigates.

But you did bring up a point I didn't notice, so I cede defeat.
Commander Skulls
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#224 - 2013-08-01 17:30:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Skulls
My Astarte..... no... Cry

Edit: This is horse ****! Command ships are already overpriced for their usefulness on the battlefield. Now except for a few "niches" they are not worth flying. I understand that T2 is supposed to be specialized, but they shouldn't be less useful than their navy/pirate counterparts. Especially when they cost twice as much.

I spent a long time training for these ships...
Ariesen Serenity
SRE Brotherhood
#225 - 2013-08-01 17:34:23 UTC
BTW, I love the changes. The dps downgrades, coupled with the ability to use (and have the highs) for multiple links, with the additional bonuses, and Hull changes (PLEASE GIVE ME 'CANE SLEIP!!! and Mrym Eos!!!!!)....love it all.

Course, I'm probably going to sell all my Nighthawks for Claymores...
mine mi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#226 - 2013-08-01 17:36:07 UTC
I think the command ships, should come in 2 versions, one focused on gank, for small fleets and other tank focused for large fleets
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#227 - 2013-08-01 17:36:50 UTC
My biggest concern is that there is no good skirmish command ship that has staying power, especially in an armor doctrine. The armor skirmish boosters actually take a double hit in that they have less low slots to work with when building a tank and they lack the resist bonus. You could actually count it triple if you consider that the damnation has a 10% armor bonus on top of those two advantages.

I would really hate to see the legion be the skirmish warfare ship for armor fleets because it can't get alpha-ed off by perfectly coordinated sentry drone fleets, while the galente boosters remain as second class citizens in the command ship world.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#228 - 2013-08-01 17:38:51 UTC
glepp wrote:
Tuxedo Catfish wrote:
Michael J Caboose wrote:
Hortoken Wolfbrother wrote:
I also echo elendar's concerns. The minmatar/gallente ships are too vulnerable for large fleet fights. Not having natural resists or EHP to match up to their companions means they start off already incredibly hobbled.

It'd be nice to see one ship for each race left intact as an active brawler, but the other ship get a bit of love to make it tougher. Why do caldari and amarr get a monopoly on these bonuses, when they are far far far far far better for large gang situations. You have two commands for each race, so it makes sense to have one designed around small gangs and one designed for larger fleets. In the case of minmatar, you could leave the claymore with its active bonus, and give the sleip a strong passive tanking bonus.

Thats my only complaint, but the ships are pretty good otherwise.


No. The mimatar/gallente command ships get a very powerful bonus to skirmish links. In exchange, they are more fragile. Less useful in fleets, but good in gangs.
The amarr/caldari command ships get a very powerful bonus to EHP. In exchange, they get a bonus to the crappy info warfare links that are seldom even used.

Seems fair. Give the minmatar/gallente EHP bonuses, and no one will ever use amarr or caldari command ships.


That's actually a pretty good answer.

I reiterate my first two questions, though.

No, local reps are wasted as soon as incoming dps > 1k, which means any gang > 1 Attack BC, really.

So this either means that gallente CS won't be using one of their boni, or that armor gangs will never get bonused skirmish links. The minnie ships could compensate if they were faster (ie Attack BC speeds), but the Eos/Astarte are way too big/sluggish to sig/speed tank. Bye bye DP HAC armor fleets, it was fun while it lasted.

Give the Gallente CS a tad more speed and swap local rep bonus on at least one for a hitpoint (not resist) bonus to allow it some more time to catch reps, please.

Again, I think you are overlooking the buffs that were made to resistances.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#229 - 2013-08-01 17:40:46 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
My biggest concern is that there is no good skirmish command ship that has staying power, especially in an armor doctrine. The armor skirmish boosters actually take a double hit in that they have less low slots to work with when building a tank and they lack the resist bonus. You could actually count it triple if you consider that the damnation has a 10% armor bonus on top of those two advantages.

I would really hate to see the legion be the skirmish warfare ship for armor fleets because it can't get alpha-ed off by perfectly coordinated sentry drone fleets, while the galente boosters remain as second class citizens in the command ship world.

A Legion set up for boosting will also get volleyed off. Basically if you want bonused Skirmish links in a gang, you'll have to bring in something squishy. If you are willing to settle for unbonused, you'll be fine. it's only a 15% bonus difference. Sometimes you'll just have to settle for the weaker links for a larger gang.

Besides, the Gallente CSs get high damage output, making them more useful in a small gang setting where everybody has to pull their weight. Have you looked at the Damnation's DPS?
NetheranE
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#230 - 2013-08-01 17:41:53 UTC
I like these changes, again.
Fozzie, your methods have yet to disappoint.

I would be a little concerned with the sliepnir have 100% dmg, a 5k alpha is quite frightening, but then again I guess it is the epitome of sub-BS projectile users.

The Nighthawk looks MUCH better now, however, Id rather the see the Nighthawk at 7/6/4 than 7/5/5.
However, I can see that this treads on the toes of the new active claymore....
Okay, I take that back.

WP FOZZIE. YOU WIN THIS TIME.
NetheranE
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#231 - 2013-08-01 17:44:02 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
My biggest concern is that there is no good skirmish command ship that has staying power, especially in an armor doctrine. The armor skirmish boosters actually take a double hit in that they have less low slots to work with when building a tank and they lack the resist bonus. You could actually count it triple if you consider that the damnation has a 10% armor bonus on top of those two advantages.

I would really hate to see the legion be the skirmish warfare ship for armor fleets because it can't get alpha-ed off by perfectly coordinated sentry drone fleets, while the galente boosters remain as second class citizens in the command ship world.


This is fine, skirmish armor fleets are a little bit of an oddity. We should keep agility and nano-based fighting with shield tanking, while giving ewar and resilience to armor fleets.
Ever thought of how powerful armor scorpions will be under the boosts of a new damnation running info and armor?
glepp
New Caldari Bureau of Investigation
#232 - 2013-08-01 17:44:27 UTC  |  Edited by: glepp
Ranger 1 wrote:
glepp wrote:
Tuxedo Catfish wrote:
Michael J Caboose wrote:
Hortoken Wolfbrother wrote:
I also echo elendar's concerns. The minmatar/gallente ships are too vulnerable for large fleet fights. Not having natural resists or EHP to match up to their companions means they start off already incredibly hobbled.

It'd be nice to see one ship for each race left intact as an active brawler, but the other ship get a bit of love to make it tougher. Why do caldari and amarr get a monopoly on these bonuses, when they are far far far far far better for large gang situations. You have two commands for each race, so it makes sense to have one designed around small gangs and one designed for larger fleets. In the case of minmatar, you could leave the claymore with its active bonus, and give the sleip a strong passive tanking bonus.

Thats my only complaint, but the ships are pretty good otherwise.


No. The mimatar/gallente command ships get a very powerful bonus to skirmish links. In exchange, they are more fragile. Less useful in fleets, but good in gangs.
The amarr/caldari command ships get a very powerful bonus to EHP. In exchange, they get a bonus to the crappy info warfare links that are seldom even used.

Seems fair. Give the minmatar/gallente EHP bonuses, and no one will ever use amarr or caldari command ships.


That's actually a pretty good answer.

I reiterate my first two questions, though.

No, local reps are wasted as soon as incoming dps > 1k, which means any gang > 1 Attack BC, really.

So this either means that gallente CS won't be using one of their boni, or that armor gangs will never get bonused skirmish links. The minnie ships could compensate if they were faster (ie Attack BC speeds), but the Eos/Astarte are way too big/sluggish to sig/speed tank. Bye bye DP HAC armor fleets, it was fun while it lasted.

Give the Gallente CS a tad more speed and swap local rep bonus on at least one for a hitpoint (not resist) bonus to allow it some more time to catch reps, please.

Again, I think you are overlooking the buffs that were made to resistances.

Nope, gallente have therm/kin bonuses, and the Astarte got a slight buff to those. Doesn't help jack against anything shooting lazors/ACs/missiles. Local rep bonus is good for solo/very small gang. These ships are made for all fleet sizes, and since Damnation doesn't boost skirmish, you either gotta go without in say, a 20-man BS fight, or ignore the local rep bonus, making it wortless.
Rose Roses
#233 - 2013-08-01 17:45:15 UTC
NetheranE wrote:

I would be a little concerned with the sliepnir have 100% dmg, a 5k alpha is quite frightening.


5k alpha would be dangerous if it had a tracking bonus. Like this, it's mostly wayne. Lokis (both armor and faggotnanofit) run ~ 4.7k alpha using faction SR, and you need 6 of them to just blap a thorax :(
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#234 - 2013-08-01 17:46:23 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Aeril Malkyre wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Sarmatiko wrote:
Also glad that Marauders are safe, for now..

/Maniacal Laugh
You madman. Don't hurt my Vargur.


He won't, you have my word.

*Quickly hides the half-dissected Vargur lying next to the Frenchman and replaces it with a half-eaten baguette*


good thing we're paying attention to all the correct things in this thread, right? lets just ignore the fact that these changes won't do **** for minmatar/gallente cs outside of 1v1s and make ****** superficial jokes about an off-topic ship class
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#235 - 2013-08-01 17:47:41 UTC
glepp wrote:
Again, I think you are overlooking the buffs that were made to resistances.


oh yes, that 8% additional kinetic resist on top of a 75% base while explosive is still at 10%, really handy
Witchking Angmar
Perkele.
#236 - 2013-08-01 17:48:47 UTC
The PWG and CPU nerfs are too harsh. And why does Astarte lose 14.3% of its maximum damage?
glepp
New Caldari Bureau of Investigation
#237 - 2013-08-01 17:48:49 UTC
Grarr Dexx wrote:
glepp wrote:
Again, I think you are overlooking the buffs that were made to resistances.


oh yes, that 8% additional kinetic resist on top of a 75% base while explosive is still at 10%, really handy


Wasn't me who said it. Have re-edited my post. Damn these fat fingers.
Rose Roses
#238 - 2013-08-01 17:49:27 UTC
glepp wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
glepp wrote:

No, local reps are wasted as soon as incoming dps > 1k, which means any gang > 1 Attack BC, really.

So this either means that gallente CS won't be using one of their boni, or that armor gangs will never get bonused skirmish links. The minnie ships could compensate if they were faster (ie Attack BC speeds), but the Eos/Astarte are way too big/sluggish to sig/speed tank. Bye bye DP HAC armor fleets, it was fun while it lasted.

Give the Gallente CS a tad more speed and swap local rep bonus on at least one for a hitpoint (not resist) bonus to allow it some more time to catch reps, please.

Again, I think you are overlooking the buffs that were made to resistances.



a) What is a DP HAC fleet? I never seen such a thing nor ever thought about doing it without beer and wine.
b) boosting astarte/eos will tank around 1.5k/2.2k ehp/s with reasonable fits while boosting armor (all 3). Even using the current stats and modules, you can tank a talos and two oracles using current Tech-3-links. Maybe not on paper, but in space.
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#239 - 2013-08-01 17:54:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Aeril Malkyre
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Aeril Malkyre wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Sarmatiko wrote:
Also glad that Marauders are safe, for now..

/Maniacal Laugh
You madman. Don't hurt my Vargur.

He won't, you have my word.
*Quickly hides the half-dissected Vargur lying next to the Frenchman and replaces it with a half-eaten baguette*
YTTERRRRBIIIIIUUUUUUMMMMM!!1!! /me shakes fists
glepp
New Caldari Bureau of Investigation
#240 - 2013-08-01 17:54:54 UTC  |  Edited by: glepp
Rose Roses wrote:
glepp wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
glepp wrote:

No, local reps are wasted as soon as incoming dps > 1k, which means any gang > 1 Attack BC, really.

So this either means that gallente CS won't be using one of their boni, or that armor gangs will never get bonused skirmish links. The minnie ships could compensate if they were faster (ie Attack BC speeds), but the Eos/Astarte are way too big/sluggish to sig/speed tank. Bye bye DP HAC armor fleets, it was fun while it lasted.

Give the Gallente CS a tad more speed and swap local rep bonus on at least one for a hitpoint (not resist) bonus to allow it some more time to catch reps, please.

Again, I think you are overlooking the buffs that were made to resistances.



a) What is a DP HAC fleet? I never seen such a thing nor ever thought about doing it without beer and wine.
b) boosting astarte/eos will tank around 1.5k/2.2k ehp/s with reasonable fits while boosting armor (all 3). Even using the current stats and modules, you can tank a talos and two oracles using current Tech-3-links. Maybe not on paper, but in space.

A) DP = Dual Prop. Applies to MWD setups as well. CS are way too slow to keep up. Same for Attack BC gangs.
Example:
Quote:
[Deimos, TWEED]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

10MN Afterburner II
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive
Warp Scrambler II

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Small Nosferatu II

Medium Anti-EM Pump I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Valkyrie II x5


B) Ok, so in any fight with more than three attack BC on the other side, the bonus is useless.