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Lag, TiDi, 6-VT and you...

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Tron 3K
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#301 - 2013-07-31 18:36:38 UTC
Starlite Kishunuba wrote:
Tron 3K wrote:
Artificial Lag


wrong, but thanks for playing ^^


Oh.. I don't see that CCP next to your name.. Glad you seem to know the inner workings of the game and what not but something that takes longer than normal is lag..
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#302 - 2013-07-31 18:37:13 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
But I easily can be. I can be what would take 20 minutes to travel appear in the time it took you to accomplish 1 tick. Simply from being in a different system.
…but that's not lag. That's just asynchronous gameplay.

Quote:
If I'm not in the same system, and I am not suffering from the same tidi penalties (balancing? hah) I have an absolute edge.
An edge in what? You can't affect him and he can't effect you except in ways that run under the same tick for both of you.

Quote:
If I'm the victim, that's terrible, if I'm on my way to the kill, I'm thanking my lucky stars.
If you're the victim, it's great because you have tons of time to call in reinforcements before you can do anything; if you're on the way to the kill, that's terrible because once you get there, his help will arrive while you're still waiting in warp.



Not when you understand the limitations set because of game mechanics and the tidi. That tian can only get so far based on the amount of time it takes to do actions in a ship that size under 100% time circumstances, let alone 10%. Faster ships can still get into that system and get that ship further tackled or aggressed in the amount of time it takes that titan to align.

For instance, if it takes 20minutes for 1 tick in that tidi environment and a titan took say.... 10 ticks to align....

That titan is ******.

If I can travel 10 jumps in the amount of time it takes 1 tick for that titan to even START aligning out, and my tacklers take 3 ticks to land in system, warp and target and then tackle...

I was able to travel 10 jumps, enter system (now affected by tidi) and take less time to get there and tackle than it took that titan to finish aligning out.

From a power projection point of view, that's insane.

Now you're looking at time responses from people logging in, batphoning an op, reshipping, and moving into position from the other side of the galaxy while that slowass titan is stuggling to align out.

That's where multiple separate nodes and "delay" are insane.

TiDi should be handling spikes, not entire encounters.


THere is nothing prevent the aligning titan from rage pinging to benefit in the same way of the difference in system tick time. It's not Tidi's fault if one side has better organisation/more friends. I've been saying it for a while, friends are OP in EVE. We have to nerf them ASAP.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#303 - 2013-07-31 18:37:51 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:




Thats because the solar system are not on the same node. The system is not lagging, it's just playing on slow on node X while node Y still handle stuff on regular speed. You can perform amny action in the neiboring system but none affact the ship in the other system. You might be able to jabber ping for reinforcement, form up a fleet, orbit the titan and bridge but your you are not interacting with the tackeled ship in the TiDi'd system. As soon as you try to interact with the system under TiDi, your action will go at that system speed thus giving no advantage while interacting with the other ship. As soon as you try to bridge, you will face the slow speed ticks insetad of the fast one in the server you came from. Then you will target at the speed of the slow server and start shooting at the speed of the slow server.



I know the why. The fact still remains true however.


Yes it's true taht as long as you are not in the same system, you are not interacting with the ship in the TiDi'd system. That is indeed a fact. You are also not interacting with a ship in another non'TiDi'd system.



But you can be. And that "before you do" time you can get ALOT of stuff done under abnormal constraints because of that time.

You know that adage "hindsight vision is 20/20"? Time Dilation dissolves that. You know that since that target/encounter is under 10% tidi, you have ALOT of time to muster reinforcements and accomplish things that would normally follow under the "htfu" mentality of Eve.

Time dilation is a very harsh filibuster.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#304 - 2013-07-31 18:39:49 UTC
Tron 3K wrote:
Starlite Kishunuba wrote:
Tron 3K wrote:
Artificial Lag


wrong, but thanks for playing ^^


Oh.. I don't see that CCP next to your name.. Glad you seem to know the inner workings of the game and what not but something that takes longer than normal is lag..


Not having a CCP tag on our portrait does not mean we are wrong. Saying that a controled slowdown of a simulation is the same thing as a dely of action caused by missmanagement of input commands is the same on the other hand IS wrong.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#305 - 2013-07-31 18:41:28 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:




Thats because the solar system are not on the same node. The system is not lagging, it's just playing on slow on node X while node Y still handle stuff on regular speed. You can perform amny action in the neiboring system but none affact the ship in the other system. You might be able to jabber ping for reinforcement, form up a fleet, orbit the titan and bridge but your you are not interacting with the tackeled ship in the TiDi'd system. As soon as you try to interact with the system under TiDi, your action will go at that system speed thus giving no advantage while interacting with the other ship. As soon as you try to bridge, you will face the slow speed ticks insetad of the fast one in the server you came from. Then you will target at the speed of the slow server and start shooting at the speed of the slow server.



I know the why. The fact still remains true however.


Yes it's true taht as long as you are not in the same system, you are not interacting with the ship in the TiDi'd system. That is indeed a fact. You are also not interacting with a ship in another non'TiDi'd system.



But you can be. And that "before you do" time you can get ALOT of stuff done under abnormal constraints because of that time.

You know that adage "hindsight vision is 20/20"? Time Dilation dissolves that. You know that since that target/encounter is under 10% tidi, you have ALOT of time to muster reinforcements and accomplish things that would normally follow under the "htfu" mentality of Eve.

Time dilation is a very harsh filibuster.


So it makes things less harsh but also more harsh sometime because it entirely depends on who has the best organisation to form up and come finish whatever side of the job they are rooting for? Looks like everything else in EVE. The better prepared will win while the less prepared will cry on the forum.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#306 - 2013-07-31 18:41:58 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


THere is nothing prevent the aligning titan from rage pinging to benefit in the same way of the difference in system tick time. It's not Tidi's fault if one side has better organisation/more friends. I've been saying it for a while, friends are OP in EVE. We have to nerf them ASAP.



Yes, if the same side as the titan had an escort that was only 1 jump out, you could still muster a sizeable force to engage that fight using non tidi elements to harass/engage a tidi affected system.

The "he can too" element is not there because of the tidi. They might already be suffering from it, and the other player with the intel has that added timed edge.

Same applies to roams out in low or null that might not even be affiliated with that fight. It's because the time affects everyone at different rates that can still interact with each other.

I might join in the last 10 ticks of a fight and be able to whore on some kills, but if it wasn't tidi'd and i was 20 jumps away I could still miss the entire thing.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Tron 3K
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#307 - 2013-07-31 18:45:38 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Tron 3K wrote:
Starlite Kishunuba wrote:
Tron 3K wrote:
Artificial Lag


wrong, but thanks for playing ^^


Oh.. I don't see that CCP next to your name.. Glad you seem to know the inner workings of the game and what not but something that takes longer than normal is lag..


Not having a CCP tag on our portrait does not mean we are wrong. Saying that a controled slowdown of a simulation is the same thing as a dely of action caused by missmanagement of input commands is the same on the other hand IS wrong.



So TiDi is managed lag? Hence.. Artificial Lag.. Thank you come again.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#308 - 2013-07-31 18:55:55 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:




Thats because the solar system are not on the same node. The system is not lagging, it's just playing on slow on node X while node Y still handle stuff on regular speed. You can perform amny action in the neiboring system but none affact the ship in the other system. You might be able to jabber ping for reinforcement, form up a fleet, orbit the titan and bridge but your you are not interacting with the tackeled ship in the TiDi'd system. As soon as you try to interact with the system under TiDi, your action will go at that system speed thus giving no advantage while interacting with the other ship. As soon as you try to bridge, you will face the slow speed ticks insetad of the fast one in the server you came from. Then you will target at the speed of the slow server and start shooting at the speed of the slow server.



I know the why. The fact still remains true however.


Yes it's true taht as long as you are not in the same system, you are not interacting with the ship in the TiDi'd system. That is indeed a fact. You are also not interacting with a ship in another non'TiDi'd system.



But you can be. And that "before you do" time you can get ALOT of stuff done under abnormal constraints because of that time.

You know that adage "hindsight vision is 20/20"? Time Dilation dissolves that. You know that since that target/encounter is under 10% tidi, you have ALOT of time to muster reinforcements and accomplish things that would normally follow under the "htfu" mentality of Eve.

Time dilation is a very harsh filibuster.


So it makes things less harsh but also more harsh sometime because it entirely depends on who has the best organisation to form up and come finish whatever side of the job they are rooting for? Looks like everything else in EVE. The better prepared will win while the less prepared will cry on the forum.



No, that time ends up being a handicap that no matter how organized you can be, you are still limited by that time, a limitation that I am not subject to until I get into system.

What that means, if you have a force of 5,000 and I have a force of 3,000 yet I am in the server with all 3,000 and you can only field 1,000, it's an entirely different dynamic to reship, or prepare and create a situation I CANNOT counter because that time does not benefit each of us equally.

And I'm trying not to even touch on the server cap issue because that's an entirely different hill of beans.

But still, TiDi needs a LOT of work.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#309 - 2013-07-31 18:58:36 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
THere is nothing prevent the aligning titan from rage pinging to benefit in the same way of the difference in system tick time. It's not Tidi's fault if one side has better organisation/more friends. I've been saying it for a while, friends are OP in EVE. We have to nerf them ASAP.

Yep.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#310 - 2013-07-31 19:03:07 UTC
Tron 3K wrote:
So TiDi is managed lag? Hence.. Artificial Lag.
No, it's actually the exact opposite of lag.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#311 - 2013-07-31 19:08:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tron 3K wrote:
So TiDi is managed lag? Hence.. Artificial Lag.
No, it's actually the exact opposite of lag.



Yea, it makes things faster! Tippia said so!

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Verunae Caseti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#312 - 2013-07-31 19:32:46 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
What that means, if you have a force of 5,000 and I have a force of 3,000 yet I am in the server with all 3,000 and you can only field 1,000, it's an entirely different dynamic to reship, or prepare and create a situation I CANNOT counter


Sorry, but if someone has 2,000+ pilots they can ping and get online on-demand at the drop of a hat, then they are a superior force and deserve to win the battle.

I don't know what your definition of "field" is, but to me it's not just "who is currently online" it is "who can I get into the battle before it's over?" and I'm afraid that includes people who are offline but available to play.

The dilation favors both sides equally, the reason the smaller side loses in this scenario is because they can't field as many pilots, period.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#313 - 2013-07-31 19:37:14 UTC
Verunae Caseti wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
What that means, if you have a force of 5,000 and I have a force of 3,000 yet I am in the server with all 3,000 and you can only field 1,000, it's an entirely different dynamic to reship, or prepare and create a situation I CANNOT counter


Sorry, but if someone has 2,000+ pilots they can ping and get online on-demand at the drop of a hat, then they are a superior force and deserve to win the battle.

I don't know what your definition of "field" is, but to me it's not just "who is currently online" it is "who can I get into the battle before it's over?" and I'm afraid that includes people who are offline but available to play.

The dilation favors both sides equally, the reason the smaller side loses in this scenario is because they can't field as many pilots, period.



So you are saying that a 6,000 man force should automatically lose to a 10,000 force right?

This is of course ignoring server cap and things that affect, you know, numbers.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#314 - 2013-07-31 19:47:20 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Verunae Caseti wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
What that means, if you have a force of 5,000 and I have a force of 3,000 yet I am in the server with all 3,000 and you can only field 1,000, it's an entirely different dynamic to reship, or prepare and create a situation I CANNOT counter


Sorry, but if someone has 2,000+ pilots they can ping and get online on-demand at the drop of a hat, then they are a superior force and deserve to win the battle.

I don't know what your definition of "field" is, but to me it's not just "who is currently online" it is "who can I get into the battle before it's over?" and I'm afraid that includes people who are offline but available to play.

The dilation favors both sides equally, the reason the smaller side loses in this scenario is because they can't field as many pilots, period.



So you are saying that a 6,000 man force should automatically lose to a 10,000 force right?

This is of course ignoring server cap and things that affect, you know, numbers.


No as it will depends on many other variable. Being able to ping 2k players to join a fight is done because you have great organisation. The other team has access to the same ressources as long as CCP is concerned. If the other alliance can't bother to have a jabber network for example and can't form up within the time the other side did, it's not TiDi's fault.
Verunae Caseti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#315 - 2013-07-31 19:49:10 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
So you are saying that a 6,000 man force should automatically lose to a 10,000 force right?

This is of course ignoring server cap and things that affect, you know, numbers.


Automatically? Who said anything about automatically?

A smaller force can win an engagement with superior ships and tactics, obviously.

My point is time dilation does not put small forces at a disadvantage by somehow giving larger forces "extra time" to assemble. The advantage comes from the fact that they have extra people available to play immediatley, not that time dilation exists.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#316 - 2013-07-31 19:55:41 UTC
Verunae Caseti wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
So you are saying that a 6,000 man force should automatically lose to a 10,000 force right?

This is of course ignoring server cap and things that affect, you know, numbers.


Automatically? Who said anything about automatically?

A smaller force can win an engagement with superior ships and tactics, obviously.

My point is time dilation does not put small forces at a disadvantage by somehow giving larger forces "extra time" to assemble. The advantage comes from the fact that they have extra people available to play immediatley, not that time dilation exists.



Not just because it's bigger no.

But generally, the bigger force is what caused the TiDi so the assumption in this case, is that the large force is already commited whereas the small force might just be a small gang or a passerby or a quick squad meant to recon/put eyes out for a sitrep.

Very rarely are you going to see a smaller force be the subject of TiDi in comparison to the large force hence my 6,000 versus 10,000 outrageous number and using the term "automatically".

Because even if Test is bigger than CFC, the CFC can still incur a TiDi environment woth backup waiting in the non tidi wings and if Test was pinned/station camped/etc from some other variable they are automatically at a disadvantage because of TiDi affecting their login/organizational element.

Of course, than can be applied anywhere and versus anyone, and has other variables that can change the outcome, but still....

The larger force will generally be at the disadvantage based on what was required to create that Time Dilated environment to begin with.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#317 - 2013-07-31 20:04:30 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Verunae Caseti wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
So you are saying that a 6,000 man force should automatically lose to a 10,000 force right?

This is of course ignoring server cap and things that affect, you know, numbers.


Automatically? Who said anything about automatically?

A smaller force can win an engagement with superior ships and tactics, obviously.

My point is time dilation does not put small forces at a disadvantage by somehow giving larger forces "extra time" to assemble. The advantage comes from the fact that they have extra people available to play immediatley, not that time dilation exists.



Not just because it's bigger no.

But generally, the bigger force is what caused the TiDi so the assumption in this case, is that the large force is already commited whereas the small force might just be a small gang or a passerby or a quick squad meant to recon/put eyes out for a sitrep.

Very rarely are you going to see a smaller force be the subject of TiDi in comparison to the large force hence my 6,000 versus 10,000 outrageous number and using the term "automatically".

Because even if Test is bigger than CFC, the CFC can still incur a TiDi environment woth backup waiting in the non tidi wings and if Test was pinned/station camped/etc from some other variable they are automatically at a disadvantage because of TiDi affecting their login/organizational element.

Of course, than can be applied anywhere and versus anyone, and has other variables that can change the outcome, but still....

The larger force will generally be at the disadvantage based on what was required to create that Time Dilated environment to begin with.


During the Titan gank in 6VDT, the CFC caused TiDi themself in thier staging system wich prevented them for forming up in time to save it. The failed attempt in the staging system became under TiDi when the CFC formed up but this time they were abel to benefit from it instead of being stopped by it. It goes both way and there is strategy to use to deal with it.

Forming up before TEST was a strategic use of the limitation. TEST should of formed ealyer to use it themself but they didn't Everybody and thier mother knew the node would get under TiDi when it happened so they should of planned around that.

EVE is a harsh world, adapt or die. Be it to change in ships or TiDi, it all applies the same.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#318 - 2013-07-31 20:47:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Frostys Virpio wrote:


During the Titan gank in 6VDT, the CFC caused TiDi themself in thier staging system wich prevented them for forming up in time to save it. The failed attempt in the staging system became under TiDi when the CFC formed up but this time they were abel to benefit from it instead of being stopped by it. It goes both way and there is strategy to use to deal with it.

Forming up before TEST was a strategic use of the limitation. TEST should of formed ealyer to use it themself but they didn't Everybody and thier mother knew the node would get under TiDi when it happened so they should of planned around that.

EVE is a harsh world, adapt or die. Be it to change in ships or TiDi, it all applies the same.



You talkin about that dumb Li3 pilot who didn't double check the pos security and got caught when trying to celebrate a little early?

Yea.. "planning".

I do like how your TiDi is applied to Eve as being "harsh" lol. Kind of funny.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#319 - 2013-08-01 00:51:32 UTC
Holy ****, 16 pages and you are still bickering about TiDi being Lag or not Lag. Delaying actions or not.

The concept is very clean, and very simple. It's so simple, I can see how you are having difficulties grasping it.

For starters, Lag is not a delay. Lag is slang, lingo, internet talk, for the term "Latency". In layman's terms, it simply means that the host-client connection is having trouble transferring packages. It also means that some packages are being lost, as in, not delivered to either end of the connection. Latency can cause actions you input to not be received by the server at all, thus, not ever happening in the universe. It can also cause clients to be considered as "timed out" and dropped, since no reply from the client could be received. This is too different from slowing down the sequence of events, to allow for the hardware to compute the information. It's so different, that you sound ignorant drawing a comparison.

If you are basing your whole argument on TiDi=Lag because Lag=delayed response, you are very sadly mistaken, and misinformed.

The only thing TiDi does is slow down the sequence in which the events flow. If you need me to elaborate on this, you are too far gone, and you might as well just stop replying.
Instead of having a click every 10 seconds (not sure on this number, since i couldn't find the article that had the exact number), it will multiply it by a factor, which is directly dependent to the node load. What happens OUTSIDE of Eve is, as with every other thing, up to the players. I have heard of fights that wouldn't have been possible, not because of the server capabilities, but because of TiDi giving people enough time to form up.

Your rant is not about TiDi, it's all because you were holding on the short end of the stick, and are now raging about it. Want a tip? Bring a bigger stick next time.

/thread

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#320 - 2013-08-01 01:12:01 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


During the Titan gank in 6VDT, the CFC caused TiDi themself in thier staging system wich prevented them for forming up in time to save it. The failed attempt in the staging system became under TiDi when the CFC formed up but this time they were abel to benefit from it instead of being stopped by it. It goes both way and there is strategy to use to deal with it.

Forming up before TEST was a strategic use of the limitation. TEST should of formed ealyer to use it themself but they didn't Everybody and thier mother knew the node would get under TiDi when it happened so they should of planned around that.

EVE is a harsh world, adapt or die. Be it to change in ships or TiDi, it all applies the same.



You talkin about that dumb Li3 pilot who didn't double check the pos security and got caught when trying to celebrate a little early?

Yea.. "planning".

I do like how your TiDi is applied to Eve as being "harsh" lol. Kind of funny.


Didn't N3ST force lose 21 dreads becuse TiDi was used by the goons to re-cap thier titans before dropping on them on the second gank attemp? Pretty sure TiDi felt harsh to those dreads...