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Lag, TiDi, 6-VT and you...

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Maximillian German
Task Force Coalition
#241 - 2013-07-31 17:00:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximillian German
Murk Paradox wrote:
Maximillian German wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I am still not understanding why people are trying to say TiDi is not lag.
Because the entire purpose and design of TiDi is to ensure that the server can keep up, and that the application keeps responding in a timely fashion to inputs — you know, kind of the exact opposite of the meaning of the quote you used.

To be precise, and to use a quote from the blog, directly after the part you used (which merely describes the problem, not the solution): “The EVE Online server should degrade in such a way that the queue of tasklets waiting for execution is minimized - ideally zero. That's precisely what Time Dilation aims to do.”

In other words, what TiDi does is remove the execution delays by ensuring that the server never reaches that overloaded state where some tasks get bumped into bajillionth place in the queue (which is what we would call lag).


thus, we see a slowdown, but the execution queue does not. I guess you could kinda say we're getting rid of server lag, but creating client lag, assuming that we are taking lag to mean slowdown in this instance.



Well, if lag is to be a slowdown or delay between execution and input of commands (highschool glossary term?) then yes.


Yes, if we are going by this definition, then tidi does not increase lag. On the client side, your module activates as soon as its clicked even under TiDi. On the server side, tasklets are able to be executed immediately because of TiDi. It's not that TiDi give the server longer to execute a command, but rather TiDI increased cycle times on modules and such so that fewer commands come at the server every second.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#242 - 2013-07-31 17:05:27 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Do you have any idea how much code would need to be redone to get away from the current limitation? What will happen after they rebuilt it to sustain 6k players with no lag at all on the new reinforced node with better coding when the CFC decide to drop 5k pilot VS a fleet of 4k pilots in the same system?

Ah **** we're back at square one because it's the nature of the game. Anything even remotely possible is bound to happen. Remember Asakai? Before it happened, if you asked people around, do you think people would of belived a single missclick could of started a supercap escalation battle over a tower bash? Do you think people would of belived before 6VDT that a single system siege would amount to a 4k vessel fight over a station shield timer? What about Luminaire?

The more space you put in the system, the more pilots will go there to be part of the next big thing. Asking CCP to halt all other developpement until a way to handle super fights is silly at best. It's still on the table but not top priority.



No I do not know how much code is required. As a consumer, I am sure I do not have access to their proprietary information.

I do know how the effects of TiDi affect me when I play though. I do know CCP wants to have these large fights. I do know that these large fights while on paper are possible, in execution they are not. Because it simply takes 20 minutes to activate a 1 second module therefore extending a 20min fight to 60 hours, because of the # of people that CCP WANTS in those fights.

To use Malcanis's analgoy in a diff tidi thread concerning umbrellas and rain...

If rain is overload, and you being wet is lag, and tidi is the umbrella...

Just because you have an umbrella doesn't mean you are not going to get wet, just less wet. Also, because you now have an umbrella, you are not going to be able to perform all your actions because you are essentially 1 armed having to hold that umbrella.

So if it took you 5 minutes to take the trash out in the sunshine, and it takes you 20minutes to take the trash out in the rain, using that one hand (because of tidi) to hold an umbrella is going to make you "slowed down" (lagged).

Poor analogy maybe, but TiDi still causes your actions to be lagged.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#243 - 2013-07-31 17:05:52 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:


I'm tired of splitting hairs with you. You simply keep adding addendums to prove a point, which deviates from the topic.

If you want to consider that defeat or victory, so be it. You will simply forgo a stance in order to win a literal argument regardless of the impact it has on players. I care more about the impact.


Tippy isn't splitting hairs, he's simply stating a simple fact. The problem is that you're arguing exactly as if you have fundamentally misunderstood what TiDi is

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Maximillian German
Task Force Coalition
#244 - 2013-07-31 17:07:13 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Maximillian German wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:



I do not think razzle dazzle is a solution to tidi. I do not think other improvements to the game are anything other than other improvements to the game.

There's my answer. (I don't think the dev team is single threaded =P).


ok, can't help replying. My resistance is weak. Anyway, the OP didn't say that razzle dazzle(really shiny stuff) is a solution, but rather a distraction by CCP from the problem. Maybe it'll make more sense like this:

players: "CCP, why aren't you working on getting rid of lag?"

CCP: "well you see kids--oh look a new scanning system!"

players: "COOL. WE'VE TOTALLY FORGOTTEN TO PESTER CCP ABOUT LAG!"

The OP is asking why we let ourselves be tricked, more or less. Also, a follow up TiDi dev post:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/time-dilation-hows-that-going/


I don't see it as being tricked, because like I said, I do not think the game revolves Time Dilation. I think CCP has many many things on their plate and can improve multiple things at various times.


Do you have any idea how much code would need to be redone to get away from the current limitation? What will happen after they rebuilt it to sustain 6k players with no lag at all on the new reinforced node with better coding when the CFC decide to drop 5k pilot VS a fleet of 4k pilots in the same system?

Ah **** we're back at square one because it's the nature of the game. Anything even remotely possible is bound to happen. Remember Asakai? Before it happened, if you asked people around, do you think people would of belived a single missclick could of started a supercap escalation battle over a tower bash? Do you think people would of belived before 6VDT that a single system siege would amount to a 4k vessel fight over a station shield timer? What about Luminaire?

The more space you put in the system, the more pilots will go there to be part of the next big thing. Asking CCP to halt all other developpement until a way to handle super fights is silly at best. It's still on the table but not top priority.


Nobody has disagreed with you. I believe everyone that is posting in this thread right now is very aware of the amount of work that would be required to fix a decade worth of code. If you feel like arguing against the statement about trickery, take it up with the OP.
The rest of your response is rambling and kinda lacks a point. Are you saying that no matter what we do, we can never improve the lag issue? Because I would like to very strongly disagree. Some clarification, if you would be so kind.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#245 - 2013-07-31 17:09:26 UTC
Maximillian German wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I am still not understanding why people are trying to say TiDi is not lag.
Because the entire purpose and design of TiDi is to ensure that the server can keep up, and that the application keeps responding in a timely fashion to inputs — you know, kind of the exact opposite of the meaning of the quote you used.

To be precise, and to use a quote from the blog, directly after the part you used (which merely describes the problem, not the solution): “The EVE Online server should degrade in such a way that the queue of tasklets waiting for execution is minimized - ideally zero. That's precisely what Time Dilation aims to do.”

In other words, what TiDi does is remove the execution delays by ensuring that the server never reaches that overloaded state where some tasks get bumped into bajillionth place in the queue (which is what we would call lag).



Increasing the time is not "in a timely fashion".


But TiDi does not increase server response time, it simply slows down the in-game clock. While modules may take 2x as long to run their full cycle, they will still start that cycle as soon as you hit 'em. The problem before TiDi was waiting minutes for modules to start the cycle, having modules never stop cycling, etc.



The result is still an increase of time from when you click your module, and when you see it take effect. I care infinitely more about when I see the result of ingame actions per my input than I do anything else.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Maximillian German
Task Force Coalition
#246 - 2013-07-31 17:10:29 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Do you have any idea how much code would need to be redone to get away from the current limitation? What will happen after they rebuilt it to sustain 6k players with no lag at all on the new reinforced node with better coding when the CFC decide to drop 5k pilot VS a fleet of 4k pilots in the same system?

Ah **** we're back at square one because it's the nature of the game. Anything even remotely possible is bound to happen. Remember Asakai? Before it happened, if you asked people around, do you think people would of belived a single missclick could of started a supercap escalation battle over a tower bash? Do you think people would of belived before 6VDT that a single system siege would amount to a 4k vessel fight over a station shield timer? What about Luminaire?

The more space you put in the system, the more pilots will go there to be part of the next big thing. Asking CCP to halt all other developpement until a way to handle super fights is silly at best. It's still on the table but not top priority.



No I do not know how much code is required. As a consumer, I am sure I do not have access to their proprietary information.

I do know how the effects of TiDi affect me when I play though. I do know CCP wants to have these large fights. I do know that these large fights while on paper are possible, in execution they are not. Because it simply takes 20 minutes to activate a 1 second module therefore extending a 20min fight to 60 hours, because of the # of people that CCP WANTS in those fights.

To use Malcanis's analgoy in a diff tidi thread concerning umbrellas and rain...

If rain is overload, and you being wet is lag, and tidi is the umbrella...

Just because you have an umbrella doesn't mean you are not going to get wet, just less wet. Also, because you now have an umbrella, you are not going to be able to perform all your actions because you are essentially 1 armed having to hold that umbrella.

So if it took you 5 minutes to take the trash out in the sunshine, and it takes you 20minutes to take the trash out in the rain, using that one hand (because of tidi) to hold an umbrella is going to make you "slowed down" (lagged).

Poor analogy maybe, but TiDi still causes your actions to be lagged.


TidI does not lag your actions. It simply slows down preset cycle times, movement times, and other things that are variables within the game. A more apt analogy might be an umbrella of warm sponges. You are still getting wet, yes, but not cold.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#247 - 2013-07-31 17:10:36 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:

Poor analogy maybe, but TiDi still causes your actions to be lagged.


For the last and final time:

NO

IT

DOESN'T

The overloading of the server is what causes the slowing down of your game; TiDi is a way of managing that overload so as to minimise the effect on your gameplay and to make sure that everything happens in the order it is supposed to.

The better analogy I posted is that TiDi is like traffic lights on a busy junction that too many vhicles want to go through. You are getting angry at the red light that's "stopping" you from getting home. But if it wasn't for the lights, then everyone would take even longer to get home because the problem isn't the traffic lights, it's that 4079 people want to go through the same junction all at once.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#248 - 2013-07-31 17:10:57 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
no, it isn't. When I click a module and it takes 3 seconds, then a reclick takes 10 seconds, then 2 minutes, then 13.... that is not a timely fashion.
It is when you compare with the alternatives, which are (in order) blackscreen, blackscreen, 20 minutes + stuck module, CTD. After all, in your cases, the module commands are being processed as opposed to… you know… not.

Quote:
That is how TiDi "creates" lag; by extending the time. The blog, as a read, shows how they want TiDi to handle spikes of server load and then compensate.. but it doesn't. Whether it be from pilots or server load of actions and extra elements (ammo, drones, etc) the TiDi plateaus constantly.
That's because the source of the load is not a spike, but a constant demand. Of course TiDi will plateau if the load does not go away. If there is but a spike, then TiDi compensates well enough, but those aren't the kind of situations that have created this whining.

And no matter how many times you repeat it, TiDi still does not create lag — processing overload does. TiDi reduces that overload.



Compare to the alternatives.... but we aren't comparing. We are defining.

"Dark brown is a light color" is a false statement. It clearly says dark and we know by looking it it isn't light.

"Dark brown is a light color when compared to black" would be a true statement.

I'm tired of splitting hairs with you. You simply keep adding addendums to prove a point, which deviates from the topic.

If you want to consider that defeat or victory, so be it. You will simply forgo a stance in order to win a literal argument regardless of the impact it has on players. I care more about the impact.


You try to prove yourself right while supporting the assumption that blackscrren and client crash were not worse than slow but ongoing fight. Tippia won this argument many pages ago.


Eh? I'm not the one using comparisons in this discussion.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#249 - 2013-07-31 17:11:30 UTC
If you can't understand that difference between "sever overload" and "TiDi" then it's OK to admit that. Just say so and then you can accept that there's something you need to learn about, you can learn about it, and we can all get on with our lives.

OK?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Maximillian German
Task Force Coalition
#250 - 2013-07-31 17:11:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximillian German
Murk Paradox wrote:
Maximillian German wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I am still not understanding why people are trying to say TiDi is not lag.
Because the entire purpose and design of TiDi is to ensure that the server can keep up, and that the application keeps responding in a timely fashion to inputs — you know, kind of the exact opposite of the meaning of the quote you used.

To be precise, and to use a quote from the blog, directly after the part you used (which merely describes the problem, not the solution): “The EVE Online server should degrade in such a way that the queue of tasklets waiting for execution is minimized - ideally zero. That's precisely what Time Dilation aims to do.”

In other words, what TiDi does is remove the execution delays by ensuring that the server never reaches that overloaded state where some tasks get bumped into bajillionth place in the queue (which is what we would call lag).



Increasing the time is not "in a timely fashion".


But TiDi does not increase server response time, it simply slows down the in-game clock. While modules may take 2x as long to run their full cycle, they will still start that cycle as soon as you hit 'em. The problem before TiDi was waiting minutes for modules to start the cycle, having modules never stop cycling, etc.



The result is still an increase of time from when you click your module, and when you see it take effect. I care infinitely more about when I see the result of ingame actions per my input than I do anything else.


No, you are wrong. Say, for instance it is a blaster module. As soon as you hit it, the blaster activates and damage is dealt. Thanks to TiDi, we have drastically reduced the time from when you click your module to the time it takes effect.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#251 - 2013-07-31 17:12:46 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

Poor analogy maybe, but TiDi still causes your actions to be lagged.


For the last and final time:

NO

IT

DOESN'T

The overloading of the server is what causes the slowing down of your game; TiDi is a way of managing that overload so as to minimise the effect on your gameplay and to make sure that everything happens in the order it is supposed to.

The better analogy I posted is that TiDi is like traffic lights on a busy junction that too many vhicles want to go through. You are getting angry at the red light that's "stopping" you from getting home. But if it wasn't for the lights, then everyone would take even longer to get home because the problem isn't the traffic lights, it's that 4079 people want to go through the same junction all at once.



"Less" is not an absense of. TiDi intentionally slows down time. Lag is time. TiDi creates a gap of time from command input to command execution!

TiDi helps STABILITY yes. I have never argued that point.

But TiDi definitely slows down your ingame actions!

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#252 - 2013-07-31 17:13:27 UTC
OK at this point, you're either trolling or too stupid to live. Only you know which.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Maximillian German
Task Force Coalition
#253 - 2013-07-31 17:14:44 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

Poor analogy maybe, but TiDi still causes your actions to be lagged.


For the last and final time:

NO

IT

DOESN'T

The overloading of the server is what causes the slowing down of your game; TiDi is a way of managing that overload so as to minimise the effect on your gameplay and to make sure that everything happens in the order it is supposed to.

The better analogy I posted is that TiDi is like traffic lights on a busy junction that too many vhicles want to go through. You are getting angry at the red light that's "stopping" you from getting home. But if it wasn't for the lights, then everyone would take even longer to get home because the problem isn't the traffic lights, it's that 4079 people want to go through the same junction all at once.



"Less" is not an absense of. TiDi intentionally slows down time. Lag is time. TiDi creates a gap of time from command input to command execution!

TiDi helps STABILITY yes. I have never argued that point.

But TiDi definitely slows down your ingame actions!


Out of curiosity, have you ever fought in TiDI?
Maximillian German
Task Force Coalition
#254 - 2013-07-31 17:15:41 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
OK at this point, you're either trolling or too stupid to live. Only you know which.


I believe this has been explained to him at least 10 different timess throughout this thread.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#255 - 2013-07-31 17:16:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Compare to the alternatives.... but we aren't comparing. We are defining.
No, we're using a highly relative term. “A timely manner” depends on the context and what you compare it against.

In this case, the commands are being handled in a timely manner (that time being within the server tick) rather than being forgotten or dropped or constantly being pushed further down the queue.

Quote:
I'm tired of splitting hairs with you.
Then stop making silly claims that rely on hair-splitting.



If you want to compare context then neither one of us can be considered right or wrong. That's why it's relative. You use a caveat later on in the argument to prove a point that didn't exist in the first place. You then bullrush a specific question to dominate the conversation into something not related, claiming "victory" because you didn't get your way.

It is not constructive.

It is not healthy.

It's combative and childish.

And it definitely is splitting hairs.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#256 - 2013-07-31 17:21:53 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
If you can't understand that difference between "sever overload" and "TiDi" then it's OK to admit that. Just say so and then you can accept that there's something you need to learn about, you can learn about it, and we can all get on with our lives.

OK?



TiDi is how the server handles server overload.

The player still suffers from lag under TiDi, or are you disagreeing with that?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#257 - 2013-07-31 17:22:31 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
OK at this point, you're either trolling or too stupid to live. Only you know which.



no u?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#258 - 2013-07-31 17:24:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Maximillian German wrote:





No, you are wrong. Say, for instance it is a blaster module. As soon as you hit it, the blaster activates and damage is dealt. Thanks to TiDi, we have drastically reduced the time from when you click your module to the time it takes effect.


Under TiDi I wouldn't see the damage of my blaster, or even know if I haven't died yet and actually fired that blaster.

My client would allow me to click on it though without any slow motion.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Tron 3K
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#259 - 2013-07-31 17:25:58 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

Poor analogy maybe, but TiDi still causes your actions to be lagged.


For the last and final time:

NO

IT

DOESN'T

The overloading of the server is what causes the slowing down of your game; TiDi is a way of managing that overload so as to minimise the effect on your gameplay and to make sure that everything happens in the order it is supposed to.

The better analogy I posted is that TiDi is like traffic lights on a busy junction that too many vhicles want to go through. You are getting angry at the red light that's "stopping" you from getting home. But if it wasn't for the lights, then everyone would take even longer to get home because the problem isn't the traffic lights, it's that 4079 people want to go through the same junction all at once.



"Less" is not an absense of. TiDi intentionally slows down time. Lag is time. TiDi creates a gap of time from command input to command execution!

TiDi helps STABILITY yes. I have never argued that point.

But TiDi definitely slows down your ingame actions!


How dare you question things in this game!? And how dare you say lag when its TiDi?! You'll never win with "vets" of this game. When the game finally can handle 4000+ ships in one location they'll come back to this and be like see told you working as intended.. Till then guess we get the "slowdowns"
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#260 - 2013-07-31 17:26:54 UTC
Maximillian German wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

Poor analogy maybe, but TiDi still causes your actions to be lagged.


For the last and final time:

NO

IT

DOESN'T

The overloading of the server is what causes the slowing down of your game; TiDi is a way of managing that overload so as to minimise the effect on your gameplay and to make sure that everything happens in the order it is supposed to.

The better analogy I posted is that TiDi is like traffic lights on a busy junction that too many vhicles want to go through. You are getting angry at the red light that's "stopping" you from getting home. But if it wasn't for the lights, then everyone would take even longer to get home because the problem isn't the traffic lights, it's that 4079 people want to go through the same junction all at once.



"Less" is not an absense of. TiDi intentionally slows down time. Lag is time. TiDi creates a gap of time from command input to command execution!

TiDi helps STABILITY yes. I have never argued that point.

But TiDi definitely slows down your ingame actions!


Out of curiosity, have you ever fought in TiDI?


Yes.

I have also watched myself warp 6au and see it take longer than it would to warp 80au under 100% real time.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.