These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page12
 

Decided to build a Providence freighter....
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#21 - 2011-11-10 15:08:02 UTC  |  Edited by: GreasyCarl Semah
Kato Matsu wrote:
I fully understand the logic behind MIMAF. I also understand Opportunity Cost.

Activity A: 100mil ISK per hour

Activity B: 75mil ISK in 30 minutes

Yes, activity B made you less ISK but you technically made more ISK per hour.

I get that, but it doesn't apply to Eve at all and here is why.

Since playing Eve I have never once heard pilots compare wallets as some kind of measure of their in-game power, influence, or (most importantly) fun. Matter of fact, the pilots I have met who were having a BLAST with eve were dirt poor. They have less than 5mil ISK in their wallets half the time and less than 100mil ISK in their wallets the other half. Furthermore, the pilots I meet who get upset at the drop of a hat and generally are poor people to play with are the "ISK accountants".

So to the OP I say: build your freighter and enjoy your work. You will be able to say that you built it yourself, from the ground up. It's a good feeling and you will learn a lot in the process. If you work with a corpmate to build this freighter then you will solidify your connections with your corp.

TL;DR have fun with production and mining. Ignore those obsessed with ISK/hr

Also... to all the ISK accountants out there I have a really scarey thought...

/sarcasm
You are wasting ISK by being on this forum! Shocked

It took you 28.92 seconds to read this post and that's time spent you could be making ISK, which as we all know, is the entire reason eve exists.


Post of the year right here.

If he enjoys making the freighter then that is what counts, who cares if he makes XX million less ISK per hour by mining veldspar.

If I want to worry about how much time I spend versus how much money I make, I'll go play that MMO called "Etrade" it seems to make a lot bigger difference when I make money at it.
Swordfingers
The Swollen Horse Society
#22 - 2011-11-10 20:04:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Swordfingers
pussnheels wrote:
mechtech wrote:
Nestor II wrote:
I will make bank on this build, as what I mine for this build I don't count as costing me anything, The way it is going I see me making about 400 Million after all expenses are taken away.


What if you can sell those 400m in minerals for 450m on the market, are you still booking that "400m profit"? Please read up on Opportunity Cost. This is a very important concept to be successful in business in this game, and to be honest it's an important concept to grasp for real life as well.

Let's say you mine the 400m of minerals in 20 hours of playtime, netting 20m per hour in income. Let's also say that you could have ran Incursions for 20 hours, or blitzed lvl 4s, and made 40m per hour. Of course I'm simplifying things, but you would basically have net loss of 400m when you look at the opportunity cost in choosing to spend 20 hours of your time making 1/2 as much.

A more relevant point to make is that you're going to be wasting a ton of time mining tritanium for the freighter. Do you have access to high end ore? If you do, then you could mine high end ore for 1 hour, sell the ore, and buy 5 hours in mining time of tritanium.

Unfortunately many people don't understand this, so the T1 and T2 market is full of items that cost less to buy than build. That fact doesn't stop "industry players" from cranking out more of them though, because in their eyes they're making money. If they spent 15 seconds to think about it, maybe they'd realize that they could stop wasting time selling items, dump the minerals on the market, and actually end up with more isk in their wallet.

aaahh gosh EVE IS NOT real life this is not a second job ALL YOUR iskies are worth nothing in real life

Indeed you are right with your stats but this is a game dammit if the guy wants to manufacture his own freighter and want to mine all the minerals himself it is HIS game and his ENJOYMENT, and i am damn sure he will be damn proud when he finish his providence , because it will be HIS ship and HIS patience and work that made it


People like him make the life of any self-respecting industialist unprofitable, tedious and boring. He should be beaten until unconsciousness so he learns the lesson.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#23 - 2011-11-10 20:18:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
pussnheels wrote:
Zifrian wrote:
To the last two posters, all good well. However, the OP isn't making hat point, he is arguing that he will make bank on this idea, which implies he wants to make isk by building and then selling. All the otherposeys relating to that are to highlight his flawed logic in this area.

On the idea that isk/hour isn't important, sure maybe not to you but it is what makes industry fun for many of us. Add in the fact I pay for both my accounts with plex (as do many industrialists), then it does matter in real life too. I have an extra 30 bucks a month and the fun of playing such a dynamic game. I call that a win-win.


True , and i got a bit angry, my apology to everyone, like you said each their own , but if your RL work involves acounting , deadlines and finances you pretty much want to do something else in the evening then checking spreadsheets to maximize your profits



that's what pew pew is for Twisted.

I honestly only dabble in industry and spreadsheets (well, not the spreadsheets...), and generally only triple-check things when I'm about to do something "big" (e.g. "hmm, i wonder if flying these 15 BS to Jita is worth it). If I'm doing little things (say 20 frigs for a lol-roam), I just check average prices of things, my stockpiles, and see if I can save a little by mining for 2 hours whilst doing corp paperwork to build the things myself.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Rhianna Ghost
Ghost Industries Inc.
#24 - 2011-11-11 10:07:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhianna Ghost
Swordfingers wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
mechtech wrote:
Nestor II wrote:
I will make bank on this build, as what I mine for this build I don't count as costing me anything, The way it is going I see me making about 400 Million after all expenses are taken away.


What if you can sell those 400m in minerals for 450m on the market, are you still booking that "400m profit"? Please read up on Opportunity Cost. This is a very important concept to be successful in business in this game, and to be honest it's an important concept to grasp for real life as well.

Let's say you mine the 400m of minerals in 20 hours of playtime, netting 20m per hour in income. Let's also say that you could have ran Incursions for 20 hours, or blitzed lvl 4s, and made 40m per hour. Of course I'm simplifying things, but you would basically have net loss of 400m when you look at the opportunity cost in choosing to spend 20 hours of your time making 1/2 as much.

A more relevant point to make is that you're going to be wasting a ton of time mining tritanium for the freighter. Do you have access to high end ore? If you do, then you could mine high end ore for 1 hour, sell the ore, and buy 5 hours in mining time of tritanium.

Unfortunately many people don't understand this, so the T1 and T2 market is full of items that cost less to buy than build. That fact doesn't stop "industry players" from cranking out more of them though, because in their eyes they're making money. If they spent 15 seconds to think about it, maybe they'd realize that they could stop wasting time selling items, dump the minerals on the market, and actually end up with more isk in their wallet.

aaahh gosh EVE IS NOT real life this is not a second job ALL YOUR iskies are worth nothing in real life

Indeed you are right with your stats but this is a game dammit if the guy wants to manufacture his own freighter and want to mine all the minerals himself it is HIS game and his ENJOYMENT, and i am damn sure he will be damn proud when he finish his providence , because it will be HIS ship and HIS patience and work that made it


People like him make the life of any self-respecting industialist unprofitable, tedious and boring. He should be beaten until unconsciousness so he learns the lesson.


Firstly: Where did he say, that MIMAF? He says, he will be making 400misk with "it". It not necessarily beeing the building, but maybe mining and building together.

Secondly: He seems to be having fun.

Thirdly: He says "after all expenses" so I think he has calculated a bit. He got the BPCs cheap from corpmates, he seems to have the possibility to build the thing etc.

Fourthly: He has fun

Fifthly: Deal with the MIMAF people or quit the industrial career. In RL you could have the same problem with every collectors item with people having inherited a collection, found something in the basement or anything like that.

Sixthly: Did I mention he is having fun?

Seventhly: regarding Opportunity Cost: How did you know he could be doing something else instead of mining? Maybe he is semi-afk, or running incursions with another account or reading or working or vacuuming or ...

Eightly and last: Its his game, he is having fun with it. He makes your live miserable with that? Not anymore than gate-campers for traders, ninja-looters for mission runners or blobers for small scale pvpers. Following your reasoning every one of this activities should not be done then. Its market pvp, even if not done intentionly.
Swordfingers
The Swollen Horse Society
#25 - 2011-11-11 13:00:35 UTC
Rhianna Ghost wrote:
Swordfingers wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
mechtech wrote:
Nestor II wrote:
I will make bank on this build, as what I mine for this build I don't count as costing me anything, The way it is going I see me making about 400 Million after all expenses are taken away.


What if you can sell those 400m in minerals for 450m on the market, are you still booking that "400m profit"? Please read up on Opportunity Cost. This is a very important concept to be successful in business in this game, and to be honest it's an important concept to grasp for real life as well.

Let's say you mine the 400m of minerals in 20 hours of playtime, netting 20m per hour in income. Let's also say that you could have ran Incursions for 20 hours, or blitzed lvl 4s, and made 40m per hour. Of course I'm simplifying things, but you would basically have net loss of 400m when you look at the opportunity cost in choosing to spend 20 hours of your time making 1/2 as much.

A more relevant point to make is that you're going to be wasting a ton of time mining tritanium for the freighter. Do you have access to high end ore? If you do, then you could mine high end ore for 1 hour, sell the ore, and buy 5 hours in mining time of tritanium.

Unfortunately many people don't understand this, so the T1 and T2 market is full of items that cost less to buy than build. That fact doesn't stop "industry players" from cranking out more of them though, because in their eyes they're making money. If they spent 15 seconds to think about it, maybe they'd realize that they could stop wasting time selling items, dump the minerals on the market, and actually end up with more isk in their wallet.

aaahh gosh EVE IS NOT real life this is not a second job ALL YOUR iskies are worth nothing in real life

Indeed you are right with your stats but this is a game dammit if the guy wants to manufacture his own freighter and want to mine all the minerals himself it is HIS game and his ENJOYMENT, and i am damn sure he will be damn proud when he finish his providence , because it will be HIS ship and HIS patience and work that made it


People like him make the life of any self-respecting industialist unprofitable, tedious and boring. He should be beaten until unconsciousness so he learns the lesson.


Firstly: Where did he say, that MIMAF? He says, he will be making 400misk with "it". It not necessarily beeing the building, but maybe mining and building together.

Secondly: He seems to be having fun.

Thirdly: He says "after all expenses" so I think he has calculated a bit. He got the BPCs cheap from corpmates, he seems to have the possibility to build the thing etc.

Fourthly: He has fun

Fifthly: Deal with the MIMAF people or quit the industrial career. In RL you could have the same problem with every collectors item with people having inherited a collection, found something in the basement or anything like that.

Sixthly: Did I mention he is having fun?

Seventhly: regarding Opportunity Cost: How did you know he could be doing something else instead of mining? Maybe he is semi-afk, or running incursions with another account or reading or working or vacuuming or ...

Eightly and last: Its his game, he is having fun with it. He makes your live miserable with that? Not anymore than gate-campers for traders, ninja-looters for mission runners or blobers for small scale pvpers. Following your reasoning every one of this activities should not be done then. Its market pvp, even if not done intentionly.

He clearly stated that he isn't accounting the mineral cost in his "profit". And he's not making my game miserable, I'm not an industrialist, but he is making game miserable for others and HIMSLEF, because he's is effectively scamming himself.

Would you, or him, consider buying high and selling low, fun?
Would you consider jumping in an mission and letting yourself get blown (willfully) fun?
Would you consider throwing money in the air (and not collecting it back afterwards) fun?
Of course you would not. Nor would he. He's market PvP-ing himself and losing the fight.

He's only having fun, because he's ignorant which is fine and dandy for him, but doesn't mean he shouldn't be educated in the problem. Ideally in "eve way" of education.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#26 - 2011-11-11 13:16:52 UTC
Swordfingers wrote:

Would you consider jumping in an mission and letting yourself get blown (willfully) fun?


That depends. Was the "mission" as follows:

"Hey guys, we found a bot mining in noobspace in a hulk. Anyone want in on the gank?"

because then, yes, the "mission" of getting willfully blown to hell was fun Twisted

BOTS.

MUST.

DIE.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Swordfingers
The Swollen Horse Society
#27 - 2011-11-11 13:22:36 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Swordfingers wrote:

Would you consider jumping in an mission and letting yourself get blown (willfully) fun?


That depends. Was the "mission" as follows:

"Hey guys, we found a bot mining in noobspace in a hulk. Anyone want in on the gank?"

because then, yes, the "mission" of getting willfully blown to hell was fun Twisted

BOTS.

MUST.

DIE.

If only you could get paid for that "mission".
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#28 - 2011-11-11 14:32:25 UTC
Rhianna Ghost wrote:

Firstly: Where did he say, that MIMAF? He says, he will be making 400misk with "it". It not necessarily beeing the building, but maybe mining and building together.

Secondly: He seems to be having fun.

Thirdly: He says "after all expenses" so I think he has calculated a bit. He got the BPCs cheap from corpmates, he seems to have the possibility to build the thing etc.

Fourthly: He has fun

Fifthly: Deal with the MIMAF people or quit the industrial career. In RL you could have the same problem with every collectors item with people having inherited a collection, found something in the basement or anything like that.

Sixthly: Did I mention he is having fun?

Seventhly: regarding Opportunity Cost: How did you know he could be doing something else instead of mining? Maybe he is semi-afk, or running incursions with another account or reading or working or vacuuming or ...

Eightly and last: Its his game, he is having fun with it. He makes your live miserable with that? Not anymore than gate-campers for traders, ninja-looters for mission runners or blobers for small scale pvpers. Following your reasoning every one of this activities should not be done then. Its market pvp, even if not done intentionly.


Here's what he said:
Nestor II wrote:
I will make bank on this build, as what I mine for this build I don't count as costing me anything, The way it is going I see me making about 400 Million after all expenses are taken away.

So he didn't say the phrase MIMAF but he clearly implied it by apparently not understanding the system. Others were, IMO, just trying to help him out for the most part and show him how it's much easier and more profitable to do it in other ways.

As far as the fun argument, that is completely possible and does make all arguments against MIMAF moot but I'm not going to assume what he is thinking on that regard like others have.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#29 - 2011-11-11 15:43:19 UTC
Ok so all the miner/manufacturer players who mine there minerals for free can build stuff and sell it a 20% profit(not counting the value of the minerals) then I will buy the stuff built with the free minerals, reprocess it and sell the minerals for more than I paid for the item you worked so hard to build.

If you want to count the minerals you mine as free that is fine. But you need to add the value of those minerals into your sell price, or at least sell at market price which would give profit if you had maxed skills,. If you sell your products for less than the value of the minerals going into them then chances are they are being bought just to reprocess back into minerals. A null sec corp I was once in actually did this frequently when building capitals. They would buy freighters for slightly less or equal to mineral value then load them up with more minerals and meta 1 items. fly the freighter back to their system, unload, and reprocess the freighter and use the minerals to build caps. Running a freighter into null is far less risk if you do not plan on getting it back out.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#30 - 2011-11-11 16:08:42 UTC
Swordfingers wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Swordfingers wrote:

Would you consider jumping in an mission and letting yourself get blown (willfully) fun?


That depends. Was the "mission" as follows:

"Hey guys, we found a bot mining in noobspace in a hulk. Anyone want in on the gank?"

because then, yes, the "mission" of getting willfully blown to hell was fun Twisted

BOTS.

MUST.

DIE.

If only you could get paid for that "mission".


30m ISK and splitting whatever modules dropped off the hulk. not too shabby payout for ~15 seconds of work.Bear




One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Kain Sotken
Doomheim
#31 - 2011-11-11 17:26:49 UTC
The industrial nerd rage and tears in this thread are priceless.....I never was "MIMAF" but from now on I will be. Keep your eyes open for some truely rock bottom prices for t1 ships :)
Velicitia
XS Tech
#32 - 2011-11-11 17:32:52 UTC
Kain Sotken wrote:
The industrial nerd rage and tears in this thread are priceless.....I never was "MIMAF" but from now on I will be. Keep your eyes open for some truely rock bottom prices for t1 ships :)


station(s) that your ship(s) will be sold in? also, what quantities?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Swordfingers
The Swollen Horse Society
#33 - 2011-11-11 18:07:47 UTC
Kain Sotken wrote:
The industrial nerd rage and tears in this thread are priceless.....I never was "MIMAF" but from now on I will be. Keep your eyes open for some truely rock bottom prices for t1 ships :)

Just wait a week, so I can train a reprocessing alt. And your market location plz.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#34 - 2011-11-11 18:23:37 UTC
Swordfingers wrote:
Kain Sotken wrote:
The industrial nerd rage and tears in this thread are priceless.....I never was "MIMAF" but from now on I will be. Keep your eyes open for some truely rock bottom prices for t1 ships :)

Just wait a week, so I can train a reprocessing alt. And your market location plz.


Hey! I laid claim first! Cool

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Hawk Bavil
Proposition Thirteen
#35 - 2011-11-11 18:27:57 UTC
Thought you may be a fool when I started reading this. Now I know you are.

HB
Rhianna Ghost
Ghost Industries Inc.
#36 - 2011-11-14 07:34:50 UTC
Zifrian wrote:

Here's what he said:
Nestor II wrote:
I will make bank on this build, as what I mine for this build I don't count as costing me anything, The way it is going I see me making about 400 Million after all expenses are taken away.

So he didn't say the phrase MIMAF but he clearly implied it by apparently not understanding the system. Others were, IMO, just trying to help him out for the most part and show him how it's much easier and more profitable to do it in other ways.

As far as the fun argument, that is completely possible and does make all arguments against MIMAF moot but I'm not going to assume what he is thinking on that regard like others have.


OK, I just happen to read it differently. He says it does not cost him anything, and he is right with it. There is no cost in mining, if you don't get yourself blown up and do not use crystals. You read into it, he is thinking the minerals are not worth anything. A slight difference, but important.

If it's truely the case he thinks so, I take everything back and say the opposite. Maybe except the fun part, that is.
Previous page12