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The sad truth as I see it....
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MrZany
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2011-09-08 20:43:38 UTC
I want to share a perspective on the current drama based on my real life business experience. Before I start I want to make it clear that I in no way support CCP's flawed roll out of Incarna or Hilmar and Zulu's behavior. That being said...

When I was a younger man my passion was bodybuilding (yes, I am a muscle head that plays Eve, I admit I must look quite ridiculous), it was my passion.

At a certain point I decided to put my passion to work for me and opened a World Gym with some similar minded friends.

This was in the 90's when bodybuilding was the rage. Our gym did very well and we catered specifically to the "hard core" bodybuilding set. Getting big was SERIOUS BUSINESS to our customers.

They would:

wake up at 4 am to get to the gym

eat no calories during the day that did not advance their muscle growth

maybe they even crossed to the dark side and used "boosters" (never had any proof but some guys were just freakishly large)

I could go on but the point is that to our clientele this gym was their world; they suffered no fools. If you weren't serious GTFO.

We had a lot of clients start toward their goal of getting "huge" or even just fit every January, but come May most would be gone. This was expected and was factored into our business model. Getting fit is requires a level of discipline that most people cannot keep up year round. Looking like a magazine model is next to impossible. However we had enough people that wanted to try.

We were doing very well, but we noticed that other gyms were undercutting our prices dramatically. Along with their lower prices they were marketing fitness in a different way. "No need to try so hard"...."its not serious business"..."just pay us every month and you will feel and look better". The truth was they were just selling memberships expecting not to see their clients ever again. And the monthly rate was so low that people never canceled. They were raking in the dough and having less overhead and wear and tear on their equipment than we were. It became about volume...quantity over quality.

We were forced to adapt. Our "serious" clients were pissed! We weren't just changing a "gym" we were changing their "world". We sympathized...it was our world too...we were all working out next to them on our off hours. However, we also had bills to pay...

What does this have to do with Eve?!?!?

Eve as far as I understand it was started by a bunch of guys whose passion was FIS.

To Eve players FIS is SERIOUS BUSINESS...they will:

Wake up at any hour to log in their supers

Play with EFT for hours just to squeeze out a bit of extra performance from their ships

Hang on a POS for hours waiting for the call to jump during a CTA

Maybe they will even cross over to the dark side and bot

Hard core Eve players are disciplined and also suffer no fools in their midst.
With the introduction of Incarna, Eve doesn't seem to be catering to the "real" Eve player and the serious business guys are pissed.
Unfortunately, most people are, IMO, not capable or willing to devote the endless hours and exert the necessary diligence to be a successful Eve player.

This is were I think CCP finds itself...they created a fine world where hard core, serious individuals could prosper, yet the volume just isn't there. This has, IMO, caused them to switch gears to a different business model. It is now about volume and possibly catering to a more casual type of player.

I don't like it...no different than I like to see someone wasting their time on an "ab roller" but I understand it, at least from my anecdotal experience.

Thanks for reading
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#2 - 2011-09-08 20:46:15 UTC
i don't agree with everything you said, but that was a good post (i don't see WiS as a bad thing, so long as FiS gets love)

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Barakkus
#3 - 2011-09-08 20:52:25 UTC
That about sums it up. That's the way the whole market is heading actually.

http://youtu.be/yytbDZrw1jc
Vin Hellsing
#4 - 2011-09-08 20:52:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Vin Hellsing
Denidil wrote:
i don't agree with everything you said, but that was a good post (i don't see WiS as a bad thing, so long as FiS gets love)


This guy is talking sense from a business perspective and it's understandable that CCP wants to make EVE appealing to a wider cross-section of the MMORPG scene.

Will this **** the FiS folks? Yes.

Will this **** EVE? Maybe.

Will this mean we'll have more noobtards to blow up? You bet.
Tyrnaeg en Varche
#5 - 2011-09-08 20:54:14 UTC
MrZany wrote:
...
Thanks for reading


I read it all Shocked

Good post - nice reading a real case instead of the usual know-it-all & runs-your-business-better-than-you posts.

And, seriously, i don't feel threatened by NeX, CQs, etc., i still do what i did in game, and if i feel like i can try new things: I had never posted on old forums, just lurking - now i start to like it a lot.
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#6 - 2011-09-08 20:56:53 UTC
Vin Hellsing wrote:
Denidil wrote:
i don't agree with everything you said, but that was a good post (i don't see WiS as a bad thing, so long as FiS gets love)


This guy is talking sense from a business perspective and it's understandable that CCP wants to make EVE appealing to a wider cross-section of the MMORPG scene.

Will this **** the FiS folks? Yes.

Will this **** EVE? Maybe.

Will this mean we'll have more noobtards to blow up? You bet.


who are you arguing against bro, i didn't disagree with everything he said - just some things. he implied that everyone thinks incarna is supa-bad.

poorly launched? yes
taking time from FiS that should be spent on FiS? maybe/probably
a bad thing? no. been part of CCP's vision of eve for loner than i've played the game. I like the idea.
do i want to exit my pod on every docking? no

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
valerydarcy
Doomheim
#7 - 2011-09-08 20:58:46 UTC
Times change, I look back to Exodus, Cold War, RMR with fondness.. But I remember having a good moan about the missile nerf, the abolition of Escrow etc etc. I expect Ill be moaning about an expansion in years to come looking back to now with the same fondness. Its called nostalgia, just need to look at things with perspective.

Post with your main™
Caladan Broood
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-09-08 21:01:37 UTC
I find bodybuilders to be an interesting sort. In their world there is only 1 type of fitness: you are either huge or you are not fit. There is no other type of fitness level except muscle mass. Personally I'm a biker, both road and mountain. I go to a mixed gym but it is dominated by body builders. I can see them scoff at my routine because it isn't geared towards body building but rather strengthening core, cardiovascular, and developing functional muscle. I'm very fit but not in the eyes of the body builder.

But I laugh when I see them try to do jump rope and die after 4 mins. I know they can't keep a high endurance for longer than a few seconds and all that huge muscle is non-functional. I sorta see them as Hollywood sets, they look really good to the eye, but they are useless for anything practical.

I do agree about ab rollers. But give me an ab wheel for a nice overall core workout (not starting at your knees but on your toes).
Vin Hellsing
#9 - 2011-09-08 21:06:59 UTC
Denidil wrote:
Vin Hellsing wrote:
Denidil wrote:
i don't agree with everything you said, but that was a good post (i don't see WiS as a bad thing, so long as FiS gets love)


This guy is talking sense from a business perspective and it's understandable that CCP wants to make EVE appealing to a wider cross-section of the MMORPG scene.

Will this **** the FiS folks? Yes.

Will this **** EVE? Maybe.

Will this mean we'll have more noobtards to blow up? You bet.


who are you arguing against bro, i didn't disagree with everything he said - just some things. he implied that everyone thinks incarna is supa-bad.

poorly launched? yes
taking time from FiS that should be spent on FiS? maybe/probably
a bad thing? no. been part of CCP's vision of eve for loner than i've played the game. I like the idea.
do i want to exit my pod on every docking? no


I keep mistaking your sig as being part of your post, lol...they really need to make the post and the sig more distinct from each other.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#10 - 2011-09-08 21:09:47 UTC
Difference is, you were in an either/or business.
Games (not even MMOs) are an and/or business.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#11 - 2011-09-08 21:23:35 UTC
I'm just a casual that loves all of it ^^

I'd say I'm a hardcore EVE fan but not as much a hardcore player.

I just putter around high sec and do my missions, occasionally doing a roam or something.

The Drake is a Lie
Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#12 - 2011-09-08 21:36:10 UTC
MrZany wrote:

With the introduction of Incarna, Eve doesn't seem to be catering to the "real" Eve player and the serious business guys are pissed.
Unfortunately, most people are, IMO, not capable or willing to devote the endless hours and exert the necessary diligence to be a successful Eve player.

This is were I think CCP finds itself...they created a fine world where hard core, serious individuals could prosper, yet the volume just isn't there. This has, IMO, caused them to switch gears to a different business model. It is now about volume and possibly catering to a more casual type of player.

I don't like it...no different than I like to see someone wasting their time on an "ab roller" but I understand it, at least from my anecdotal experience.

Thanks for reading


Good post and I agree in part. I think at least some in CCP realise it too in that EVE got too soft in some ways and lost its edge. I do think that the direction coming from FiS lately has been to reverse that trend with the changes to jump bridges being an example.

What worries me is the pace of it. It feels slow, really slow. It has taken a long, long time for CCP to take on the super cap issue let alone present what they actually think the solution is. We have no real idea of what to expect from the winter expansion, and that bothers me.

I don't think that Incarna itself will kill EVE as we know (knew?) it, but I do think that they need to toughen EVE up again to make it feel more like the hardcore world it used to be.

http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/

The Jotunn Risi are now recruiting, Brutor ancestry required in order to best represent the Brutor interest.  Join channel JORIS to learn more!
J Kunjeh
#13 - 2011-09-08 21:51:57 UTC
Yep, OP nailed it. Great post. It's unfortunate, but that's what Capitalism does to creative endeavors over time.

"The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5) 
The Offerer
Doomheim
#14 - 2011-09-08 22:01:30 UTC
Let's use your gym analogy and take a look at another perspective:

How would a customer of your gym feel if you (at the same time)

  • neglected your equipment to the point of it starting to fell apart when someone tries to use it
  • air conditioning stopped working, doors get jammed frequently, water is sometimes available for the showers and sometimes isn't,...
  • you keep adding new exercising equipment that are basically half-finished test products that somewhat work but your customers are having a hard time using them
  • invested a large quantity of cash in new shiny mirrors, background lights, flower arrangements from the most expensive and respected florist in the city and generally threw a lot of money at making the place look like authentic Mexican fiesta 24/7 (it's all fun, interesting and good looking, but it's somewhat inappropriate for a gym)
  • invested a lot of money in escalators that are either too slow for the majority of customers or does not even work, at the same time you have removed the elevator that was very popular way of getting to your gym and forced your customers to use the escalator
  • and finally, instead of focusing to improve and sell actual services, like personal trainers, nutritionists, tweaking exercising equipment to provide optimal performance, etc. your main focus suddenly changed to selling and marketing of utterly expensive knee bands


I'm not complaining or raging or anything. Just found the analogy interesting Cool
Trainwreck McGee
Doomheim
#15 - 2011-09-08 22:18:27 UTC
I do not agree.

I am a casual player....i literally play 20 minutes to an hour a day tops and maybe 4 hours on Sunday.

I live in a C2 Wormhole with some friends. Wormholes would not exist if CCP didn't get down to business and put out a great FiS expansion with WH and T3's. I am pissed that CCP is not giving me anymore FiS goodies to play with for at least a year.

I do not play EVE a whole lot but i sure as hell don't want the Incarna BS they are shoving down our throats.

They are catering to carebears who want to play barbies and that is it. Something in the air tells me that this is not the majority of EVE players casual or hardcore.

CCP Trainwreck - Weekend Custodial Engineer / CCP Necrogoats foot stool
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2011-09-08 22:20:43 UTC
Mittens said it first but I'll say it again here:

Flying in Space (FiS) is Eve Online. Walking in stations is not Eve. It is the World of Darkness paid beta testing.

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
Zleon Leigh
#17 - 2011-09-08 22:51:33 UTC
Great post by OP, but....

The Offerer wrote:
Let's use your gym analogy and take a look at another perspective:

How would a customer of your gym feel if you (at the same time)

  • neglected your equipment to the point of it starting to fell apart when someone tries to use it
  • air conditioning stopped working, doors get jammed frequently, water is sometimes available for the showers and sometimes isn't,...
  • you keep adding new exercising equipment that are basically half-finished test products that somewhat work but your customers are having a hard time using them
  • invested a large quantity of cash in new shiny mirrors, background lights, flower arrangements from the most expensive and respected florist in the city and generally threw a lot of money at making the place look like authentic Mexican fiesta 24/7 (it's all fun, interesting and good looking, but it's somewhat inappropriate for a gym)
  • invested a lot of money in escalators that are either too slow for the majority of customers or does not even work, at the same time you have removed the elevator that was very popular way of getting to your gym and forced your customers to use the escalator
  • and finally, instead of focusing to improve and sell actual services, like personal trainers, nutritionists, tweaking exercising equipment to provide optimal performance, etc. your main focus suddenly changed to selling and marketing of utterly expensive knee bands


I'm not complaining or raging or anything. Just found the analogy interesting Cool


This +++

Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital. CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day

PvP's latest  incentive program ** Unified Inventory **  'Cause you gotta kill something after trying to use it
Crunchmeister
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2011-09-08 23:34:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Crunchmeister
hmmm... disregard... Seems like I'm gettin double posts that aren't even the same Ugh

People were constantly telling me I was crazy. For a long time I didn't believe them, but after a while, I started to think they might be right.

But it turns out that they were all wrong. One of the voices in my head is a psychiatrist and he says I'm perfectly sane.

Crunchmeister
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2011-09-08 23:35:19 UTC
Agreed with Zleon. The OP had a great analogy, but The Offerer's addition really drove it home

People were constantly telling me I was crazy. For a long time I didn't believe them, but after a while, I started to think they might be right.

But it turns out that they were all wrong. One of the voices in my head is a psychiatrist and he says I'm perfectly sane.

MrZany
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2011-09-09 00:22:54 UTC
The Offerer wrote:
Let's use your gym analogy and take a look at another perspective:

How would a customer of your gym feel if you (at the same time)

  • neglected your equipment to the point of it starting to fell apart when someone tries to use it
  • air conditioning stopped working, doors get jammed frequently, water is sometimes available for the showers and sometimes isn't,...
  • you keep adding new exercising equipment that are basically half-finished test products that somewhat work but your customers are having a hard time using them
  • invested a large quantity of cash in new shiny mirrors, background lights, flower arrangements from the most expensive and respected florist in the city and generally threw a lot of money at making the place look like authentic Mexican fiesta 24/7 (it's all fun, interesting and good looking, but it's somewhat inappropriate for a gym)
  • invested a lot of money in escalators that are either too slow for the majority of customers or does not even work, at the same time you have removed the elevator that was very popular way of getting to your gym and forced your customers to use the escalator
  • and finally, instead of focusing to improve and sell actual services, like personal trainers, nutritionists, tweaking exercising equipment to provide optimal performance, etc. your main focus suddenly changed to selling and marketing of utterly expensive knee bands


I'm not complaining or raging or anything. Just found the analogy interesting Cool


LMAO! Your post actually reminds me of some of the stupid things we did in an attempt to market our gym when we were young. Like paying a guy to stand at the local train station and hand out carnations with a free month coupon attached to them on Valentine's day. Seemed like a winning idea to us. We handed out 300 carnations and got exactly 0 memberships out of it.

Some times you can convince yourself that some pretty silly ideas are "winners" especially if you are in an echo chamber.

You raise some good points, some of what has been done and said by CCP has been a bit of a "head-scratcher".

With respect to your point about equipment,look at it another way.

From CCP's standpoint it may make sense to have a certain portion of their player base in station at any given time. Less lag perhaps. Less wear and tear on the equipment, less demand for resources.( I don't say this with any certainty)

Remember,your hard core members are always going to be coming to you with their latest "need", I used to have guys come into my office with pictures of some exotic piece of equipment that they just had to have in order to reach their goal.

Casual members were just happy to have the basics; some cardio equipment and some light weights. Both types of members paid the same membership fee. From a business standpoint the casual member was more desirable. From a personal standpoint (remember we were bodybuilders ourselves) we loved to have the passionate clients in the gym.

In some ways it was a relief to have the more intense members leave especially if they were "bad mouthing" our business as we changed our business model, just from a stress stand point (we were only human), but in the long run it made sense for us to try to walk the fine line of keeping MOST of our clients happy. It wasn't easy and we had 1300 members at our peak to contend with.

With the numbers that CCP has to make happy it is infinitely harder.

What I learned is that as long as you keep things clean, fix broken equipment expeditiously, you are responsive, and you at least make a good faith effort to address everyone's needs (even if you tell them why you can't give them what they "need" at that moment) your more reasonable clients (which is most people IMO) will stay with you.
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