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Lag, TiDi, 6-VT and you...

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Maximillian German
Task Force Coalition
#141 - 2013-07-30 20:35:43 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:



Confirming you don't care about the growth of the game?



Its better then sticking your fingers in your ears and jumpping up and down screaming "lag lag lag lag lag".

Murk Paradox wrote:


That's easy, Time Dilation disrupts "real time". So not even Even can process a 4,000 ship battle in "real time".

Stop trolling.



No it interrupts game time.

So by your lack of alternatives, I'm going to go with Eve actually IS the standard for this sort of thing. I certainly haven't seen anything bigger.



Bigger than what, taking 6 hours to perform 45 minutes worth of actions?

You're straying off topic sir. I'm not speaking of alternatives, it's a matter of addressing the problem, not running away from them as what is your apparent reaction.


and yet you still haven't answered his initial question. Ironic, is it not?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2013-07-30 20:36:56 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:


You're straying off topic sir. I'm not speaking of alternatives, it's a matter of addressing the problem, not running away from them as what is your apparent reaction.



You aren't competent to discuss the issue since you don't know the difference between lag and latency. These are fundamental high school level computer class glossary terms.
Maximillian German
Task Force Coalition
#143 - 2013-07-30 20:38:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximillian German
so tell me Murk, what is your solution? If we're all running away from the problem, then where is your answer?
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#144 - 2013-07-30 20:41:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
I think where the fanboys are getting obsessed is in defense of their holy matron they fixate on the term 'lag' as a somantic argument that avoids confronting the reality of gameplay suckage during large fleet battles...

So lets start again, with using more fanboy-approved terms like 'slowdowns' (and the ubiquitous 'suckage').

I have updated the blog post as well to be more fanboy (samantic-fixated-derp-meisters) friendly to what I am talking about as well...I am nothing if not flexible Tippia!


How as paying EvE users did we come to accept UI razzle dazzle and gimmicks instead of a true remedy to slowdowns? When did nullsec alliances give up the ghost, and like a victim of Stokholm syndrome buy into the notion that TiDi is some kind of answer to the rediculous fail of slowdown suckage on the 'single-shard, single-sandbox' of 'massive fleet battles'?

I don't get it.

Can someone explain this please? It wasn't so long ago people were burning Jita because of micro-transactions, yet now with increasing server suckage the response is 'meh'?

Would you like to know more?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#145 - 2013-07-30 20:41:40 UTC
Maximillian German

Confirming you don't care about the growth of the game?[/quote wrote:


confirming that I won't throw a tantrum because the fix I wan't isn't ready right this second.

also, this thread is going places


I dunno, you're not going a good job about it now.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#146 - 2013-07-30 20:42:22 UTC
Maximillian German wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:



Confirming you don't care about the growth of the game?



Its better then sticking your fingers in your ears and jumpping up and down screaming "lag lag lag lag lag".

Murk Paradox wrote:


That's easy, Time Dilation disrupts "real time". So not even Even can process a 4,000 ship battle in "real time".

Stop trolling.



No it interrupts game time.

So by your lack of alternatives, I'm going to go with Eve actually IS the standard for this sort of thing. I certainly haven't seen anything bigger.



Bigger than what, taking 6 hours to perform 45 minutes worth of actions?

You're straying off topic sir. I'm not speaking of alternatives, it's a matter of addressing the problem, not running away from them as what is your apparent reaction.


and yet you still haven't answered his initial question. Ironic, is it not?


Yes I have.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#147 - 2013-07-30 20:43:36 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


You're straying off topic sir. I'm not speaking of alternatives, it's a matter of addressing the problem, not running away from them as what is your apparent reaction.



You aren't competent to discuss the issue since you don't know the difference between lag and latency. These are fundamental high school level computer class glossary terms.


I do understand the difference, but as we are using layman terms in regards to time dilation not being lag (it's what the word actually means btw) I do not think it's a matter of you to decide.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#148 - 2013-07-30 20:44:45 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I love your audacity in saying lag removes lag.
Good thing that I didn't, then.
Yes, you did. Word for word. "TiDi is a way to remove that lag."
So in other words, I didn't say that. Especially not word for word. Rather, I said that TiDi is a way to remove the lag that comes from the server not processing everything correctly.

Quote:
Yes. Server TiDi is lag for the client.
No. Server TiDi is synchronised with client TiDi, which is a slowdown of the world simulation.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#149 - 2013-07-30 20:44:48 UTC
Maximillian German wrote:
so tell me Murk, what is your solution? If we're all running away from the problem, then where is your answer?



The answer to what? I am not saying I know more than CCP, I just recognize the fact that time dilation is lag created by the server to make sure the # of disconnects are reduced.

You are the one/s trying to troll a response because of the lack of understanding, not me =)

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#150 - 2013-07-30 20:47:04 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
How as paying EvE users did we come to accept UI razzle dazzle and gimmicks instead of a true remedy to slowdowns?
Why does it need to be remedied when the slowdown itself is a remedy for an actual problem?

Quote:
Can someone explain this please? It wasn't so long ago people were burning Jita because of micro-transactions, yet now with increasing server suckage the response is 'meh'?
Well, let's see… one was about the developers showing the intention to fundamentally break the game; the other was about the developers trying to take the game to new heights of grandiose battles.

And you say people responded differently to these events? Hard to imagine…
Meanwhile, TiDi is a true remedy to lag. The problem you're having is that you're confusing “slow” with “laggy”.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#151 - 2013-07-30 20:47:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I love your audacity in saying lag removes lag.
Good thing that I didn't, then.
Yes, you did. Word for word. "TiDi is a way to remove that lag."
So in other words, I didn't say that. Especially not word for word. Rather, I said that TiDi is a way to remove the lag that comes from the server not processing everything correctly.

Quote:
Yes. Server TiDi is lag for the client.
No. Server TiDi is synchronised with client TiDi, which is a slowdown of the world simulation.



Lag is lag, so yes, you did.

And the game does not create client TiDi, because my mouse and keystrokes still work in real time, not dilated time. The processing time in the command queue of the server is what is dilated, thus creating the "lag" the clients suffer from when trying to apply reactionary commands to ingame actions.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2013-07-30 20:49:53 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:


Yes I have.


No you didn't.

What is the idea solution for running over the bandwidth of the I/O AND in concurrently driving your processing resources well beyond what they are capable of.

What is the "standard" that you used to call CCPs middleware substandard. To be substandard there was to be an accepted standard first.

Murk Paradox wrote:
Maximillian German wrote:
so tell me Murk, what is your solution? If we're all running away from the problem, then where is your answer?



The answer to what? I am not saying I know more than CCP, I just recognize the fact that time dilation is lag created by the server to make sure the # of disconnects are reduced.

You are the one/s trying to troll a response because of the lack of understanding, not me =)


......our lack of understanding when you can't use basic terms relating to computer operation.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#153 - 2013-07-30 20:53:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:


And you say people responded differently to these events? Hard to imagine…
Meanwhile, TiDi is a true remedy to lag. The problem you're having is that you're confusing “slow” with “laggy”.



Tippia, are you aware of what lag means? I don't think you do.

TiDi is not the answer to lag, its the answer to disconnects.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#154 - 2013-07-30 20:55:00 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


Yes I have.


No you didn't.

What is the idea solution for running over the bandwidth of the I/O AND in concurrently driving your processing resources well beyond what they are capable of.

What is the "standard" that you used to call CCPs middleware substandard. To be substandard there was to be an accepted standard first.

Murk Paradox wrote:
Maximillian German wrote:
so tell me Murk, what is your solution? If we're all running away from the problem, then where is your answer?



The answer to what? I am not saying I know more than CCP, I just recognize the fact that time dilation is lag created by the server to make sure the # of disconnects are reduced.

You are the one/s trying to troll a response because of the lack of understanding, not me =)


......our lack of understanding when you can't use basic terms relating to computer operation.



Oh, the standard is once I click a command or a module, I should be able to see that result in a timely manner.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#155 - 2013-07-30 20:55:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Murk Paradox wrote:
Lag is lag, so yes, you did.
…except that — as the very quote you yourself used show — I didn't say that lag removes lag, especially not word for word. That's just some idiotic nonsense you've dreamed up for the lack of a proper argument. Rather, I said that TiDi is a way to remove the lag that comes from the server not processing everything correctly. You really shouldn't try to alter what I've said unless you have mod powers and can go into my posts and remove the evidence that you're wrong, you know…

Quote:
And the game does not create client TiDi
The client TiDi is synched with the server TiDi — you know, the central authority that runs the game? So yes, the game creates that client TiDi so that the client world simulation runs at the same pace as the server world simulation.

Quote:
my mouse and keystrokes
…are not part of the world simulation.

Quote:
Yes I have.
Ok. So what other MMO allows 4000+ client battles in real time?

Quote:
Oh, the standard is once I click a command or a module, I should be able to see that result in a timely manner.
…and TiDi ensures that you do (as opposed to before, when clicking a command or module could yield no result, the wrong result, the right result but no indication of it, or just a CTD for the hell of it).
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2013-07-30 20:55:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Murk Paradox wrote:



Tippia, are you aware of what lag means? I don't think you do.


Oh Hell no. I want to hear you explain what lag actually is. Because I'm certain that Tippia does, and I'm also certain that you haven't a clue.

Murk Paradox wrote:


Oh, the standard is once I click a command or a module, I should be able to see that result in a timely manner.


It does its just no longer aligned to real time


Now that definition, please.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#157 - 2013-07-30 20:56:45 UTC
Onictus wrote:


......our lack of understanding when you can't use basic terms relating to computer operation.


When I can't? Of course I can.

The whole point when you educate someone, is to use their terms in a manner they can understand.

Such as time dilation being lag.

Not sure why you think that affected packet latency is as a term has anything to do with time dilation not being lag.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2013-07-30 20:58:15 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Onictus wrote:


......our lack of understanding when you can't use basic terms relating to computer operation.


When I can't? Of course I can.

The whole point when you educate someone, is to use their terms in a manner they can understand.

Such as time dilation being lag.

Not sure why you think that affected packet latency is as a term has anything to do with time dilation not being lag.



No try again (pro tip: I already posted it once)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#159 - 2013-07-30 20:59:19 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
When I can't? Of course I can.
So why don't you?

Quote:
Such as time dilation being lag.
By what definition?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#160 - 2013-07-30 21:03:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:



Tippia, are you aware of what lag means? I don't think you do.


Oh Hell no. I want to hear you explain what lag actually is. Because I'm certain that Tippia does, and I'm also certain that you haven't a clue.

Murk Paradox wrote:


Oh, the standard is once I click a command or a module, I should be able to see that result in a timely manner.


It does its just no longer aligned to real time


Now that definition, please.


Lag is the ability for a client-server, or server-client ability to keep up with a command from one source to the other.

For instance, If I'm hosting a game that you joined and I can see your actions faster than you can see mine, there is going to be lag.

Now, you mentioned latency, which I found funny, because latency is the RATE of which that lag happens, recorded in milliseconds (can vary actually).

But you want to assume that I do not know my "highschool glossary" terms simply because this thread is full of people that do not realize that time dilation is a code that increases server-client latency in order to increase the stability of connections and processed commands.

That time dilation, which increases latency, is in fact, creating stability at the cost of "lag".

Stop putting me under the light like you are a badass. You aren't.

Time dilation, by definition, design, and result, is, lag.

If you do not like that answer, you will have to do without and supplement your own =P

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.