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Lag, TiDi, 6-VT and you...

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#121 - 2013-07-30 20:00:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I love your audacity in saying lag removes lag.
Good thing that I didn't, then.




Yes, you did. Word for word. "TiDi is a way to remove that lag."

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#122 - 2013-07-30 20:02:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
[
No. TiDi is the server running the world simulation at a slower speed to remove the lag that comes from the server not processing everything correctly.



Yes. Server TiDi is lag for the client. Because me clicking a module and a server taking longer than normal to produce the result is lag.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#123 - 2013-07-30 20:05:10 UTC
Maximillian German wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I once bought a piece of crap car because my older car blew an engine and I had a chance to get a crap car that ran instead of the better car I had that could no longer run (needed an engine replaced). This older pos car was a temporary fix until I was at a spot I could afford to A)Get a new car, or B)Replace the motor in my old car.

The salesman didn't try saying how good the car was, he flat out listened to me and understood I was on a budget and simply sold me a car.


A better analogy would be that you couldn't use your roadster because you had to haul 30 kids to a game, and you're complaining that the bus you had to use didn't handle like a roadster.

Well, duh.

CCP can optimize and optimize and optimize--in case you missed the relevant article, the game already runs on the equivalent of a supercomputer, and it's considered a technological marvel--but look at the numbers: 6VDT was a 4000-member fight between a ~13,000 member alliance (plus ~mumble~ allies) and a ~35,000 member coalition. Do you believe for a second that if the node had been able to host 6,000 people instead, that it wouldn't have been a 6,000 member fleet fight?

Time Dilation allows the game to run fairly and predictably under loads that would make any other engine curl up in a fetal crouch and cry for mommy. That is a feature.


for a while there, we were loading the roadster down with kids to the point where it scraped the asphalt, and even then we were leaving some of them behind. But paradox here wants our bus to preform like a roadster and he wants it NOW! Nevermind that the changes to the engine and the chassis is a huge undertaking.


When CCP advertises that bus as performing like a roadster... yes. I fully expect a company to make good on their word for services and products they sell.

That's the beauty of being a consumer, that I think a lot of fanbois are missing here; we are all consumers. We aren't the devs or programmers (or step up if you are!) or anyone that has to defend something that is not working up to par.

It's substandard, and us as paying customers should want more plain and simple.

Consumers consume.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2013-07-30 20:06:03 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia wrote:
[
No. TiDi is the server running the world simulation at a slower speed to remove the lag that comes from the server not processing everything correctly.



Yes. Server TiDi is lag for the client. Because me clicking a module and a server taking longer than normal to produce the result is lag.


No its not its simply changing the speed of the game. Its not lag, lag is a calls being made on the processor that the processor has to queue to process.

They are different monsters, time dilation allows an orderly wind down of the queue, lag is hit or miss, some things work, some things just don't happen, or happen in the wrong order.
Maximillian German
Task Force Coalition
#125 - 2013-07-30 20:06:16 UTC
Tron 3K wrote:
I wasn't there.. I won't be there with the blobs anytime soon.. I understand why CCP did what they did to make the game playable with so many ships in one system..

My question is why are people just "okay" with this? I mean yea not much we can do about it but saying oh its TiDi its perfect is dumb..

And by the way TiDi = Lag with a new name.. Anytime it takes you longer to do one thing that normally took a second is lag..


tidi != lag. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you can stop being an ignorant pain in our collective asses. Do we want it to get better? Of course. That is not even a question. TiDI basically normalizes the lag to a set level and more importantly, cuts down on frequent disconnects and other issues. Do you still slow down? Yes. But the slowdown is regulated and ensures that the fight proceeds fairly, in terms of shots fired, damage dealt, etc.
Maximillian German
Task Force Coalition
#126 - 2013-07-30 20:07:39 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia wrote:
[
No. TiDi is the server running the world simulation at a slower speed to remove the lag that comes from the server not processing everything correctly.



Yes. Server TiDi is lag for the client. Because me clicking a module and a server taking longer than normal to produce the result is lag.


No its not its simply changing the speed of the game. Its not lag, lag is a calls being made on the processor that the processor has to queue to process.

They are different monsters, time dilation allows an orderly wind down of the queue, lag is hit or miss, some things work, some things just don't happen, or happen in the wrong order.


So, if you play a game that has a bullet-time mode, then that is lag under you definition as well. Better go ***** at them too
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2013-07-30 20:08:01 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:


It's substandard, and us as paying customers should want more plain and simple.





Substandard? What other MMO allows 4000+ client battles in real time?

Pray tell, what is the "standard" then?
Tron 3K
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#128 - 2013-07-30 20:13:48 UTC
Maximillian German wrote:
Tron 3K wrote:
I wasn't there.. I won't be there with the blobs anytime soon.. I understand why CCP did what they did to make the game playable with so many ships in one system..

My question is why are people just "okay" with this? I mean yea not much we can do about it but saying oh its TiDi its perfect is dumb..

And by the way TiDi = Lag with a new name.. Anytime it takes you longer to do one thing that normally took a second is lag..


tidi != lag. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you can stop being an ignorant pain in our collective asses. Do we want it to get better? Of course. That is not even a question. TiDI basically normalizes the lag to a set level and more importantly, cuts down on frequent disconnects and other issues. Do you still slow down? Yes. But the slowdown is regulated and ensures that the fight proceeds fairly, in terms of shots fired, damage dealt, etc.



So what you are saying is they create the lag to be even for everyone? So its.. yep still lag.. Amazing!
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2013-07-30 20:18:03 UTC
come on, this thread is getting funnier and funnier.

here, let me tell you what happened before TiDi: node crash, stuck at login screen, first blob on the scene wins the day as they only need to setup a token force on the gate and watch the attackers trickle one by one and get shot one by one not even knowing how the **** they ended up on a new clone.
and I'm not even talking about the permastuck modules and seeing your ship on fire zero hull for 1 hour until, yeah you guessed it: the node crashes.


now, things happen, altho (extremely) slowly, now at the very least you can see yourself getting properly podded.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2013-07-30 20:18:05 UTC
Tron 3K wrote:



So what you are saying is they create the lag to be even for everyone? So its.. yep still lag.. Amazing!



For the 30th time.

TiDi is not lag, its a change in the client update rate that in affect gives the node 10 times the amount of time to process call and queries made to it in game time.

No more no less.

Now, when we get 2700 man battles on un-reinforced nodes, or ridiculousness like 6VDT, there is certainly lag happening, even then its still a vast improvement over 2010 when around 600 local everything got completely haywire.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2013-07-30 20:23:34 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


It's substandard, and us as paying customers should want more plain and simple.





Substandard? What other MMO allows 4000+ client battles in real time?

Pray tell, what is the "standard" then?




Standard? When you undock and click a command... how long does it take?

Now compare that to a TiDi'd node.

Welcome to lag.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#132 - 2013-07-30 20:25:44 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia wrote:
[
No. TiDi is the server running the world simulation at a slower speed to remove the lag that comes from the server not processing everything correctly.



Yes. Server TiDi is lag for the client. Because me clicking a module and a server taking longer than normal to produce the result is lag.


No its not its simply changing the speed of the game. Its not lag, lag is a calls being made on the processor that the processor has to queue to process.

They are different monsters, time dilation allows an orderly wind down of the queue, lag is hit or miss, some things work, some things just don't happen, or happen in the wrong order.



I don't think you quite get it.

Lag is lag is lag. Period.

Tidi does not remove lag or decrease lag.

Time Dilation is artificially (and intentionally) creating lag. Not from an overload of commands, but by processing the queue of commands.

Time dilation helps with blackscreen disconnects, but it does so by creating that buffer to process those commands as to not crash.

It's still ******* lag.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Maximillian German
Task Force Coalition
#133 - 2013-07-30 20:27:42 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


It's substandard, and us as paying customers should want more plain and simple.





Substandard? What other MMO allows 4000+ client battles in real time?

Pray tell, what is the "standard" then?




Standard? When you undock and click a command... how long does it take?

Now compare that to a TiDi'd node.

Welcome to lag.


you still haven't answered the question. Nice deflection though. Anyway, if you don't think you're getting enough performance for your money, then stop playing. That's one less wasted slot on the server.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#134 - 2013-07-30 20:28:52 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Tron 3K wrote:



So what you are saying is they create the lag to be even for everyone? So its.. yep still lag.. Amazing!



For the 30th time.

TiDi is not lag, its a change in the client update rate that in affect gives the node 10 times the amount of time to process call and queries made to it in game time.

No more no less.

Now, when we get 2700 man battles on un-reinforced nodes, or ridiculousness like 6VDT, there is certainly lag happening, even then its still a vast improvement over 2010 when around 600 local everything got completely haywire.



"Lag is also often used in reference to video games to describe the delay (or latency) between an action by a player and the reaction of the game"(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag)

Say it one more time, with feeling please, how TiDi is not lag.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2013-07-30 20:28:59 UTC
Maximillian German wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


It's substandard, and us as paying customers should want more plain and simple.





Substandard? What other MMO allows 4000+ client battles in real time?

Pray tell, what is the "standard" then?




Standard? When you undock and click a command... how long does it take?

Now compare that to a TiDi'd node.

Welcome to lag.


you still haven't answered the question. Nice deflection though. Anyway, if you don't think you're getting enough performance for your money, then stop playing. That's one less wasted slot on the server.



yeah, I want to hear the standard myself.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#136 - 2013-07-30 20:30:04 UTC
Maximillian German wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


It's substandard, and us as paying customers should want more plain and simple.





Substandard? What other MMO allows 4000+ client battles in real time?

Pray tell, what is the "standard" then?




Standard? When you undock and click a command... how long does it take?

Now compare that to a TiDi'd node.

Welcome to lag.


you still haven't answered the question. Nice deflection though. Anyway, if you don't think you're getting enough performance for your money, then stop playing. That's one less wasted slot on the server.



Confirming you don't care about the growth of the game?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#137 - 2013-07-30 20:31:16 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Maximillian German wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


It's substandard, and us as paying customers should want more plain and simple.





Substandard? What other MMO allows 4000+ client battles in real time?

Pray tell, what is the "standard" then?




Standard? When you undock and click a command... how long does it take?

Now compare that to a TiDi'd node.

Welcome to lag.


you still haven't answered the question. Nice deflection though. Anyway, if you don't think you're getting enough performance for your money, then stop playing. That's one less wasted slot on the server.



yeah, I want to hear the standard myself.


That's easy, Time Dilation disrupts "real time". So not even Even can process a 4,000 ship battle in "real time".

Stop trolling.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2013-07-30 20:31:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Murk Paradox wrote:



Confirming you don't care about the growth of the game?



Its better then sticking your fingers in your ears and jumpping up and down screaming "lag lag lag lag lag".

Murk Paradox wrote:


That's easy, Time Dilation disrupts "real time". So not even Even can process a 4,000 ship battle in "real time".

Stop trolling.



No it interrupts game time.

So by your lack of alternatives, I'm going to go with Eve actually IS the standard for this sort of thing. I certainly haven't seen anything bigger.
Maximillian German
Task Force Coalition
#139 - 2013-07-30 20:32:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximillian German
Murk Paradox wrote:
Maximillian German wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


It's substandard, and us as paying customers should want more plain and simple.





Substandard? What other MMO allows 4000+ client battles in real time?

Pray tell, what is the "standard" then?




Standard? When you undock and click a command... how long does it take?

Now compare that to a TiDi'd node.

Welcome to lag.


you still haven't answered the question. Nice deflection though. Anyway, if you don't think you're getting enough performance for your money, then stop playing. That's one less wasted slot on the server.



Confirming you don't care about the growth of the game?


confirming that I won't throw a tantrum because the fix I wan't isn't ready right this second.

also, this thread is going places
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#140 - 2013-07-30 20:35:03 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:



Confirming you don't care about the growth of the game?



Its better then sticking your fingers in your ears and jumpping up and down screaming "lag lag lag lag lag".

Murk Paradox wrote:


That's easy, Time Dilation disrupts "real time". So not even Even can process a 4,000 ship battle in "real time".

Stop trolling.



No it interrupts game time.

So by your lack of alternatives, I'm going to go with Eve actually IS the standard for this sort of thing. I certainly haven't seen anything bigger.



Bigger than what, taking 6 hours to perform 45 minutes worth of actions?

You're straying off topic sir. I'm not speaking of alternatives, it's a matter of addressing the problem, not running away from them as what is your apparent reaction.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.