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Lag, TiDi, 6-VT and you...

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2013-07-30 18:02:32 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
That's like saying "I paid $20 cover to go into that ***** bar and all I got was a dry handjob from a 48 yr old dirty house wife.."

"But dude, atleast it was a handjob!"

Praise for TiDi... holy ****.

No, it's like saying “where it was impossible to have big fights without the server breaking, it is now possible to have them without the server breaking” and “having server-breaking collections of people is what the game is all about so it's not something you can design your way out of, but rather have to compensate for through other means”.

No amount of kvetching will change the fact that TiDi has solved the problem of the server breaking and not processing the fight correctly when under high load. Instead of lagging out, it now gracefully degrades the simulation speed to the point where that processing can still take place with very little lag. The larger problem now is really one of client stability, since it seems to have issues with setting up and rendering that many objects.

And yes, the mechanic is being praised for what it allows the players to do. I don't quite get why this is such a shocking revelation.



Because dialup modems are a thing for fax machines and the 1990's.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#82 - 2013-07-30 18:04:33 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Because dialup modems
…have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Would you like to respond to my post instead, or just concede right here and now that you have no point and no argument?
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#83 - 2013-07-30 18:04:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
That's like saying "I paid $20 cover to go into that ***** bar and all I got was a dry handjob from a 48 yr old dirty house wife.."

"But dude, atleast it was a handjob!"

Praise for TiDi... holy ****.

No, it's like saying “where it was impossible to have big fights without the server breaking, it is now possible to have them without the server breaking” and “having server-breaking collections of people is what the game is all about so it's not something you can design your way out of, but rather have to compensate for through other means”.

No amount of kvetching will change the fact that TiDi has solved the problem of the server breaking and not processing the fight correctly when under high load. Instead of lagging out, it now gracefully degrades the simulation speed to the point where that processing can still take place with very little lag. The larger problem now is really one of client stability, since it seems to have issues with setting up and rendering that many objects.

And yes, the mechanic is being praised for what it allows the players to do. I don't quite get why this is such a shocking revelation.


Lots of great rationalizations, again in the purgatory is better than hell genre. But I have a simple question...

Is there still game crushing, near unplayable, LAG during large fights?

Yes, or No

Second question, are there ANY mentions of this crushing lag in the marketing, media reports of 'massive fights' et al? Anything? Or is it all 'massive multiplayer', 'single shard' 'biggest fight evar' etc -- with NO mention of the nasty asterisk conspicuously missing on the end...

(*) So long as more than 2,000 players don't enter a system at once...

Get it?

Its the disconnect between marketing, hype, fanboy rationalizations of lag purgatory being better than disconnect hell -- against the reality of LAG remains, and is oppresive during big fights.

Period.

Would you like to know more?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2013-07-30 18:08:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Because dialup modems
…have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Would you like to respond to my post instead, or just concede right here and now that you have no point and no argument?



Ok, I'll "dial it down" for you.

Running at 10% efficiency is only 10% of 100%.

100% ideal.

10% not ideal.

TiDi sucks.


A webpage with broadband would take say 1 second to load a webpage on a pretty standard given day in normal bau fashion.

Now, all of a sudden, it will take 10 minutes for your computer to perform the same actions it would normally take 1 second to do.

At the same rate your computer used to behave in the land of 233mhz processors and 33.8k modem speeds.

Because magical space chickens.

I did answer your post. I even explained it.

Deal with it. You aren't in charge =)

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#85 - 2013-07-30 18:09:50 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Lots of great rationalizations, again in the purgatory is better than hell genre.
No. Still in the “it solves the problem of the server breaking perfectly” and the “player pressure will always tend towards server-breaking levels” genre.

Your problem is that you apparently think that solving a problem is bad.

Quote:
Is there still game crushing, near unplayable, LAG during large fights?
Not really, no. Mainly lots of slowdown, since that's what TiDi does: it replaces the lag that comes from the server not processing everything correctly with the slower pace of not forgetting or skipping over half of the things that need to be done.

Quote:
Second question, are there ANY mentions of this crushing lag
What lag?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2013-07-30 18:11:13 UTC
Tippia-

Do you agree TiDi is just fine or needs work?

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2013-07-30 18:13:31 UTC
Tippia-

Do you think the limits put on the server to only accomadate 2,000 to 4,000 people in one fight is healthy for a game based on forces numbering in the 10s of thousands or should there be more stability across the game to encourage many more large scale fights?

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Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#88 - 2013-07-30 18:13:39 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Lots of great rationalizations, again in the purgatory is better than hell genre. But I have a simple question...

Is there still game crushing, near unplayable, LAG during large fights?

Yes, or No
No there is not.

Quote:
Second question, are there ANY mentions of this crushing lag in the marketing, media reports of 'massive fights' et al? Anything? Or is it all 'massive multiplayer', 'single shard' 'biggest fight evar' etc -- with NO mention of the nasty asterisk conspicuously missing on the end...

(*) So long as more than 2,000 players don't enter a system at once...
I think most of the news outlet that sourced ANY EVE source knew of the TiDi we had.
I think the problem here is that you:
a) fail to understand that EVE runs on some of the best you find outside of military and banking,
b) fail to understand that had the TiDi limit been 6 000, we'd been 6 500,
c) fail to understand that TiDi is not lag,
d) fail to understand that the easy software solution (sharding) is unwanted by players and CCP,
e) fail to understand that although it went really slow, we actually had more than 4 000 people in a fight in EVE.

I have no idea how you can remain so ignorant after having been told these things in various ways for quite a while, but there you have it. The simple answer to your critique of TiDi is that you're wrong on all counts.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#89 - 2013-07-30 18:14:04 UTC
One issue is that once TiDi got to 10% the server started dropping commands, or delaying them for minutes. 10% was not enough.

For those that were there, which of these two evils would you prefer:

Still more TiDi
The current case where the sever drops commands due to overload

Im wondering if TiDi should turn into Stutter Time once the load gets too high. The game runs for one tick (a tick in eve is one second, lengthened to 10 seconds once we get full TiDi) then freezes until the server catches up. During that freeze all commands you issue are ignored. Well, maybe corp, alliance and fleet chat still work. Once the server catches up you get another 10 seconds of 1/10th speed simulation. At least that way if you turn on a gun it will indeed fire the next tick.

Even slower more annoying than TiDi, but at least fair.

On another note: The idea that if CCP makes the game faster the players will slow it back down again by bringing more pilots is wrong. Once ALL the pilots are there the players cannot bring more. So all we need is for CCP to speed up the servers to the point where they can handle everyone on one node, and we are done.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2013-07-30 18:14:14 UTC
Tippia-

Do you really consider TiDi a fix, or a mere bandaid used in server triage?

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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#91 - 2013-07-30 18:14:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Tippia wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Lots of great rationalizations, again in the purgatory is better than hell genre.
No. Still in the “it solves the problem of the server breaking perfectly” and the “player pressure will always tend towards server-breaking levels” genre.

Your problem is that you apparently think that solving a problem is bad.


You avoided answering my question. How is the problem solved? Is there still crushing lag during big fights, YES OR NO?

Quote:
Second question, are there ANY mentions of this crushing lag
Quote:
What lag?


And this is perfect example of how a fanboy gets sold on razzle dazzle. Lag becomes 'slowdown' or 'slower pace', and by a different name is somehow acceptible?

Dude, I was there...the LAG was horrible to the point of the game being unplayable. Period.

Call it 'slowdown', 'TiDi', chocolate sundae with sprinkles...

Its still LAG. And its still NOT fixed.

Right?

Would you like to know more?
Mellisa Jade
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2013-07-30 18:15:53 UTC
I bet in about 50 years time hardware will have been developed that will run 4k man fights flawlessly. Sadly some of the game's best FC's will be in thier winter years by this time and likley far too senile to FC anymore :P

_'Time is to eternity, as the mind is to what surrounds us.' _
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2013-07-30 18:15:58 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
One issue is that once TiDi got to 10% the server started dropping commands, or delaying them for minutes. 10% was not enough.

For those that were there, which of these two evils would you prefer:

Still more TiDi
The current case where the sever drops commands due to overload

Im wondering if TiDi should turn into Stutter Time once the load gets too high. The game runs for one tick (a tick in eve is one second, lengthened to 10 seconds once we get full TiDi) then freezes until the server catches up. During that freeze all commands you issue are ignored. Well, maybe corp, alliance and fleet chat still work. Once the server catches up you get another 10 seconds of 1/10th speed simulation. At least that way if you turn on a gun it will indeed fire the next tick.

Even slower more annoying than TiDi, but at least fair.

On another note: The idea that if CCP makes the game faster the players will slow it back down again by bringing more pilots is wrong. Once ALL the pilots are there the players cannot bring more. So all we need is for CCP to speed up the servers to the point where they can handle everyone on one node, and we are done.



So you want turn based then.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#94 - 2013-07-30 18:18:46 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Running at 10% efficiency is only 10% of 100%.
So it has nothing to do with TiDi then, since it is the mechanic that allows the server to run at 100% efficiency rather than 10%. Thus, TiDi rules.

Quote:
A webpage with broadband would take say 1 second to load a webpage on a pretty standard given day in normal bau fashion.
Now, all of a sudden, it must deliver that same webpage to 600 people at the same time rather than just the one. Obviously, it will take 600 times longer to deliver it to everyone — i.e. 10 minutes.

So the question to you is: would you rather prefer to see the website, or not see it? Because the alternative if you want to have it in 1 second is that you only get the first 0.17% of the page, which won't even cover the head element, and all you're staring at is a blank page. You can have it in all its glory, or not have it at all. Which one do you pick?

Quote:
Now, all of a sudden, it will take 10 minutes for your computer
No, because your computer is irrelevant.

Quote:
I did answer your post. I even explained it.
You did neither. You didn't address the point of how TiDi solves lag; you didn't address the point of why it's a good solution for its problem; you didn't address the point of why people like this solution. All you did was post a complete and irrelevant misunderstanding of what's going on.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#95 - 2013-07-30 18:19:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Lots of great rationalizations, again in the purgatory is better than hell genre. But I have a simple question...

Is there still game crushing, near unplayable, LAG during large fights?

Yes, or No
No there is not.

Quote:
Second question, are there ANY mentions of this crushing lag in the marketing, media reports of 'massive fights' et al? Anything? Or is it all 'massive multiplayer', 'single shard' 'biggest fight evar' etc -- with NO mention of the nasty asterisk conspicuously missing on the end...

(*) So long as more than 2,000 players don't enter a system at once...
I think most of the news outlet that sourced ANY EVE source knew of the TiDi we had.
I think the problem here is that you:
a) fail to understand that EVE runs on some of the best you find outside of military and banking,
b) fail to understand that had the TiDi limit been 6 000, we'd been 6 500,
c) fail to understand that TiDi is not lag,
d) fail to understand that the easy software solution (sharding) is unwanted by players and CCP,
e) fail to understand that although it went really slow, we actually had more than 4 000 people in a fight in EVE.

I have no idea how you can remain so ignorant after having been told these things in various ways for quite a while, but there you have it. The simple answer to your critique of TiDi is that you're wrong on all counts.


1) Mentions of 'TiDi' are specifically to avoid calling it what it is, LAG. When the horrible crushing lag gets accurately reported during large fleet fights, we can agree there has been disclosure. As long as people keep calling it 'TiDi' to deliberately hide the fact crushing LAG is in play, I will continue to call it as I see it. LAG is LAG.

2) If I am sitting in 6-VDT and it takes minutes for a single UI action/response cycle to happen, thats LAG. Period. Call it 'TiDi', chocolate sundae with sprinkles, its still LAG. The fact everyone else is equally lagged under 'TiDi' is irrelevant, lag is LAG.

Seriously, I feel like I am stuck in the novel 1984 with you guys...

"Rejoice, your chocolate ration is being increased from 4 oz a day to 3 oz a day! Rejoice!"

and you go 'Yaaaaay!'...

Would you like to know more?
TravelBuoy
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2013-07-30 18:20:49 UTC
Not Tidi need for solve problems.
The AoE titan controlled the numbers , but CCP fcked up the games when they purged out them from game.
Tidi is just a crap trying to fix their fail.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#97 - 2013-07-30 18:25:28 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
You avoided answering my question. How is the problem solved? Is there still crushing lag during big fights, YES OR NO?
I answered both of your questions. The latter very clearly; the former before you even asked it and again right now. Try reading the things you edit out before editing them out.

Quote:
Lag becomes 'slowdown' or 'slower pace', and by a different name is somehow acceptible?
Again, the problem is that you're confusing “lag” with “slowdown”, which is why you're so thoroughly befuddled by what TiDi does: it replaces the lag that comes from the server not processing everything correctly with the slower pace of not forgetting or skipping over half of the things that need to be done.

Quote:
Dude, I was there...the LAG was horrible to the point of the game being unplayable.
What kind of lag did you experience? I only saw (and heard of) slowdown and the occasional client crash from having too much stuff to handle.

Murk Paradox wrote:
Do you really consider TiDi a fix, or a mere bandaid used in server triage?
Neither. It's a solution to the problem of the server breaking down at high load.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2013-07-30 18:25:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Running at 10% efficiency is only 10% of 100%.
So it has nothing to do with TiDi then, since it is the mechanic that allows the server to run at 100% efficiency rather than 10%. Thus, TiDi rules.

Quote:
A webpage with broadband would take say 1 second to load a webpage on a pretty standard given day in normal bau fashion.
Now, all of a sudden, it must deliver that same webpage to 600 people at the same time rather than just the one. Obviously, it will take 600 times longer to deliver it to everyone — i.e. 10 minutes.

So the question to you is: would you rather prefer to see the website, or not see it? Because the alternative if you want to have it in 1 second is that you only get the first 0.17% of the page, which won't even cover the head element, and all you're staring at is a blank page. You can have it in all its glory, or not have it at all. Which one do you pick?

Quote:
Now, all of a sudden, it will take 10 minutes for your computer
No, because your computer is irrelevant.

Quote:
I did answer your post. I even explained it.
You did neither. You didn't address the point of how TiDi solves lag; you didn't address the point of why it's a good solution for its problem; you didn't address the point of why people like this solution. All you did was post a complete and irrelevant misunderstanding of what's going on.



TiDi solving lag is not my burden. It's yours.

I say TiDi sucks, you say it deserves praise.

TiDi should affect the entire game at the same time since the game is based on real time. Manipulating that time is NOT good.

This is a game of power projection and meta, real time reactions matter. TiDi sucks. It should not take you the same amount of time to turn on a module that I can travel multiple jumps. My one second should equal your one second don't you agree?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#99 - 2013-07-30 18:30:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
1) Mentions of 'TiDi' are specifically to avoid calling it what it is, LAG.
incorrect. You're confusing slowdown with lag. TiDi is not the same thing as lag. TiDi is the mechanic that allows the server to slow down the simulation to have more time to process the events in the system; lag is stuff becoming unresponsive because the server skips over your input.

Quote:
2) If I am sitting in 6-VDT and it takes minutes for a single UI action/response cycle to happen, thats LAG.
No, that's just slowdown. What we had before was lag: when it took minutes for a singly UI action/response cycle to be skipped completely so you had to try again and hope you got the luck of the draw this time.

People are rejoicing over the fact that their commands are being processed in a predictable manner so they can have a massive fight rather than just dropped so they can't.

Murk Paradox wrote:
TiDi solving lag is not my burden. It's yours.
I say TiDi sucks, you say it deserves praise.
…and I've explained the how and why of it, as well as why it is being praised. You're not describing anything, so the burden of explaining why it sucks in spite of solving the problem it's mean to solve resides entirely with you.

Quote:
TiDi should affect the entire game at the same time since the game is based on real time. Manipulating that time is NOT good.
It is if it lets the server stay alive when people decide to cram into a single system, and affecting as few people as possible is indeed a good thing.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#100 - 2013-07-30 18:32:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
You avoided answering my question. How is the problem solved? Is there still crushing lag during big fights, YES OR NO?
I answered both of your questions. The latter very clearly; the former before you even asked it and again right now. Try reading the things you edit out before editing them out.

Quote:
Lag becomes 'slowdown' or 'slower pace', and by a different name is somehow acceptible?
Again, the problem is that you're confusing “lag” with “slowdown”, which is why you're so thoroughly befuddled by what TiDi does: it replaces the lag that comes from the server not processing everything correctly with the slower pace of not forgetting or skipping over half of the things that need to be done.

Quote:
Dude, I was there...the LAG was horrible to the point of the game being unplayable.
What kind of lag did you experience? I only saw (and heard of) slowdown and the occasional client crash from having too much stuff to handle.

Murk Paradox wrote:
Do you really consider TiDi a fix, or a mere bandaid used in server triage?
Neither. It's a solution to the problem of the server breaking down at high load.



You should really consider what you are trying to portend.

TiDi is a way to manage lag, yet you say "...what TiDi does: it replaces the lag that comes from the server not processing everything correctly with the slower pace of not forgetting or skipping over half of the things that need to be done."

Would you please explain what lag is?

You do know a delay is lag right? That lag doesn't mean you miss commands, that it queues them up.

Time Dilation is exactly that.

"Neither. It's a solution to the problem of the server breaking down at high load"

A solution....

So you do not think it needs improving. Thanks for clarifying.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.