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Lag, TiDi, 6-VT and you...

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2013-07-30 16:02:58 UTC
Aidan Brooder wrote:
I really wonder sometimes how some people got entitled to expect nothing less and only accept... divinity (HD)?

4000(!) players, plus their drones and every other crap they got... Like... Missilies... Bombs... etc...

Eh, really, guys... Please write petitions to Google to hand over the Google cluster. And then raw computing power isn't even touching the 'issue".

I think 4000 players doing battle even at TiDi 10% is pretty impressive.

But perhaps it is because I'm faced with unrealistic fantasies of the voodoo powers of IT myself every day. Pirate



How would you stack that with the normal everyday horrible TiDi of a 2,000 fleet fight that takes advance notice to NOT crash while at the same time trying to say you need more people in null?

This is about growth of null and not a series of one time events. Otherwise you will only increase your twitch viewers.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2013-07-30 16:18:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Murk Paradox wrote:
Aidan Brooder wrote:
I really wonder sometimes how some people got entitled to expect nothing less and only accept... divinity (HD)?

4000(!) players, plus their drones and every other crap they got... Like... Missilies... Bombs... etc...

Eh, really, guys... Please write petitions to Google to hand over the Google cluster. And then raw computing power isn't even touching the 'issue".

I think 4000 players doing battle even at TiDi 10% is pretty impressive.

But perhaps it is because I'm faced with unrealistic fantasies of the voodoo powers of IT myself every day. Pirate



How would you stack that with the normal everyday horrible TiDi of a 2,000 fleet fight that takes advance notice to NOT crash while at the same time trying to say you need more people in null?

This is about growth of null and not a series of one time events. Otherwise you will only increase your twitch viewers.


It's about the same as a 2000 ship fight on a non reinforced node.

And it didn't crash, that is what tidi does
TravelBuoy
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2013-07-30 16:19:49 UTC  |  Edited by: TravelBuoy
Jill Xelitras wrote:
jackncoke wrote:
Its like this ...
The dog wants the ball to fly longer and harder. So he barks in frustration while his master is trying to explain why that is ...


Indeed. Very well explained.

To the OP:
Before TiDi, the server would desync and lag. TiDi is not lag, it's artificially slowing time (think of it as bullet time in a FPS).

People who experienced lag in fleet battles know what I'm talking about:
- you start a module and nothing happens.
- a module can't be turned off.
- you shoot at a target, that other pilots report is long dead.
- you're computer thinks you're alive and kicking, the server knows you've been podded already, but the information comes minutes later.
- the server crashes, because it can't keep up with the desynced stream of data.

In TiDi everything happens slower, but at least it really happens. No desync, no crash ... not even lag, just slow gameplay.

You really prefer desyncs and crashes ?


But there was not just single Tidi (slow motion of time) there was lag too.
I was there. My guns needed 15 minutes activation times in 10% Tidi. 10% tidi = 10x slowing, and a matematics know 1second x 10=10second and 10seconds is not equal with 15 minutes.
The gun cycles stucked or didn't work. The damage stoppped many times when we got lagspikes.
I made 10 kills within 3h45min in a 4k battles. (Pathetic thing)
The battle was almost unplayable for 4 hours long.

Oh and i have a opinion from TiDi. Tidi = bullsh*t
Paid for lag.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2013-07-30 17:11:41 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Aidan Brooder wrote:
I really wonder sometimes how some people got entitled to expect nothing less and only accept... divinity (HD)?

4000(!) players, plus their drones and every other crap they got... Like... Missilies... Bombs... etc...

Eh, really, guys... Please write petitions to Google to hand over the Google cluster. And then raw computing power isn't even touching the 'issue".

I think 4000 players doing battle even at TiDi 10% is pretty impressive.

But perhaps it is because I'm faced with unrealistic fantasies of the voodoo powers of IT myself every day. Pirate



How would you stack that with the normal everyday horrible TiDi of a 2,000 fleet fight that takes advance notice to NOT crash while at the same time trying to say you need more people in null?

This is about growth of null and not a series of one time events. Otherwise you will only increase your twitch viewers.


It's about the same as a 2000 ship fight on a non reinforced node.

And it didn't crash, that is what tidi does



2300 people to fill and maintain a 2,000 player system cap is not good in a game that you want to keep an open world sandbox to encourage large fights.

If I have 4,700 on my side commited to play (even at 10% tidi) and you have 5,300 commited and yet I have 1,800 in system and you can only hamburger grind 200+ in at a time... you're going to leave aren't you?

Or are you going to maintain you will whelp your 200 into my 1,800 all day long?

Granted, the server might not crash, even though it might drop clients, and it might even spool way up to accomodate those pilots....

But in a game where you WANT huge epic fights... hardware capping and creating those self imposing limitations flat out suck and needs to be improved.

Using 4,000 as a benchmark is terrible unless people are going to insinuate they can field 4,000 in any system at any time for the same performance.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#65 - 2013-07-30 17:15:37 UTC
Job Valador wrote:
I liked many of your pirate blogs, but this, this is just whining and I have already a crate of cheese ready too mail too you friend.

The sum of defense-of-TiDi arguments appears to be 'Purgatory isn't so bad, you should have seen when we were in Hell...'

Really?

p.s.
You may enjoy this, fresh from the oven.

Would you like to know more?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-07-30 17:16:52 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Aidan Brooder wrote:
I really wonder sometimes how some people got entitled to expect nothing less and only accept... divinity (HD)?

4000(!) players, plus their drones and every other crap they got... Like... Missilies... Bombs... etc...

Eh, really, guys... Please write petitions to Google to hand over the Google cluster. And then raw computing power isn't even touching the 'issue".

I think 4000 players doing battle even at TiDi 10% is pretty impressive.

But perhaps it is because I'm faced with unrealistic fantasies of the voodoo powers of IT myself every day. Pirate



How would you stack that with the normal everyday horrible TiDi of a 2,000 fleet fight that takes advance notice to NOT crash while at the same time trying to say you need more people in null?

This is about growth of null and not a series of one time events. Otherwise you will only increase your twitch viewers.


It's about the same as a 2000 ship fight on a non reinforced node.

And it didn't crash, that is what tidi does



2300 people to fill and maintain a 2,000 player system cap is not good in a game that you want to keep an open world sandbox to encourage large fights.

If I have 4,700 on my side commited to play (even at 10% tidi) and you have 5,300 commited and yet I have 1,800 in system and you can only hamburger grind 200+ in at a time... you're going to leave aren't you?

Or are you going to maintain you will whelp your 200 into my 1,800 all day long?

Granted, the server might not crash, even though it might drop clients, and it might even spool way up to accomodate those pilots....

But in a game where you WANT huge epic fights... hardware capping and creating those self imposing limitations flat out suck and needs to be improved.

Using 4,000 as a benchmark is terrible unless people are going to insinuate they can field 4,000 in any system at any time for the same performance.


You say that like it's easy to improve the system. THere are reason whey TIDI is happening. Back before that, EVERYBODY would black screened and faced a login window.

It's not perfect but it's still leaps and bound ahead of what it was before.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-07-30 17:17:58 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Job Valador wrote:
I liked many of your pirate blogs, but this, this is just whining and I have already a crate of cheese ready too mail too you friend.

The sum of defense-of-TiDi arguments appears to be 'Purgatory isn't so bad, you should have seen when we were in Hell...'

Really?

p.s.
You may enjoy this, fresh from the oven.


It's not puratory being better than hell, it's game still going foward VS blackscreen.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#68 - 2013-07-30 17:27:31 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
The sum of defense-of-TiDi arguments appears to be 'Purgatory isn't so bad, you should have seen when we were in Hell...'

Really?
Not really, no. The sum of praise for TiDi is: “awesome fights are better than no fights” and “there is no technical solution to human behaviour”. TiDi has solved the problem of server-crushing lag from processing overload and allowed the continued use of a single-sharded design paradigm. There are other problems still to solve but that doesn't mean that TiDi hasn't solved its part of the equation.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#69 - 2013-07-30 17:28:41 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Job Valador wrote:
I liked many of your pirate blogs, but this, this is just whining and I have already a crate of cheese ready too mail too you friend.

The sum of defense-of-TiDi arguments appears to be 'Purgatory isn't so bad, you should have seen when we were in Hell...'

Really?


As opposed to what other option?

The only alternative you offer is buzzword-laden handwaving, which is no alternative at all.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Xearal
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#70 - 2013-07-30 17:35:50 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
[quote=Solstice Project]
WoW nodes did handle much more than 400 at full speed but the load is different. The whole world is handled by a single node just like 6VDT was handled by a single node. The load is really different tho. The graphical effect are much more intensive than EVE and thats what usually kills the flow of combat way before the server stop being able to handle anything at full speed. The client side start gagging much faster than the server because there is too much damn thing to render at the same time. EVE seems to be cranking less the eye candies in favor of a much more playable game in case of massive encounter.

A WoW node would at 10% speed would probably handle the load and then go "Where the hell is everyone?" after the clients started crashign elft and right.

The EVE node just say "Chill the **** down and we'll get there." then start doing all the work at a reduced peace.

The 2 end results are tightly linked to what the game were designed to deliver. EVE is developping to provide massive fights so it made it's architecture in a way to handle that. It makes sacrifice to achive that goal. Other games were though differently so they handle the same thing in a different way.

People should be happy that CCP went the way it did to enable the battle happening. Who the hell care about still having 1 second ticks if those ticks are showing a black screen?


Actually, your analogy isn't quite correct.. a WoW node wouldn't be able to handle 4000 people like what happened in 6-VDT.
yes, it might be able to handle 4000 people without TIDI ( though this is pushing it for a WoW server, 4000 people on a single server creates quite a bit of lag ), but these people are all spread out and not interacting with each other. In the 4000-man battle, all those people, or most of them anyway, were in the same location, the same grid. Imagine a 4000 server where the alliance announces it will invade Oggrimar with EVERYBODY on their side, and the horde getting EVERYBODY to defend.
At this point, everybody will be interacting with everybody, meaning that the server has to handle a lot more than it usually does, when everybody is nicely doing their thing in some instance. ( also note that a lot of instances in wow no longer happen on their world node, but cross server nodes )
Even not counting the visual overload on the clients, the server would curl in a ball and whimper quietly as it died well before even a small number of them were together.


Does railgun ammunition come in Hollow Point?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2013-07-30 17:39:09 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Aidan Brooder wrote:
I really wonder sometimes how some people got entitled to expect nothing less and only accept... divinity (HD)?

4000(!) players, plus their drones and every other crap they got... Like... Missilies... Bombs... etc...

Eh, really, guys... Please write petitions to Google to hand over the Google cluster. And then raw computing power isn't even touching the 'issue".

I think 4000 players doing battle even at TiDi 10% is pretty impressive.

But perhaps it is because I'm faced with unrealistic fantasies of the voodoo powers of IT myself every day. Pirate



How would you stack that with the normal everyday horrible TiDi of a 2,000 fleet fight that takes advance notice to NOT crash while at the same time trying to say you need more people in null?

This is about growth of null and not a series of one time events. Otherwise you will only increase your twitch viewers.


It's about the same as a 2000 ship fight on a non reinforced node.

And it didn't crash, that is what tidi does



2300 people to fill and maintain a 2,000 player system cap is not good in a game that you want to keep an open world sandbox to encourage large fights.

If I have 4,700 on my side commited to play (even at 10% tidi) and you have 5,300 commited and yet I have 1,800 in system and you can only hamburger grind 200+ in at a time... you're going to leave aren't you?

Or are you going to maintain you will whelp your 200 into my 1,800 all day long?

Granted, the server might not crash, even though it might drop clients, and it might even spool way up to accomodate those pilots....

But in a game where you WANT huge epic fights... hardware capping and creating those self imposing limitations flat out suck and needs to be improved.

Using 4,000 as a benchmark is terrible unless people are going to insinuate they can field 4,000 in any system at any time for the same performance.


You say that like it's easy to improve the system. THere are reason whey TIDI is happening. Back before that, EVERYBODY would black screened and faced a login window.

It's not perfect but it's still leaps and bound ahead of what it was before.


I say it like it's none of my business how it should be done, but if you are going to build up an expectation, then you also need to deliver on it.

I don't care what it used to be, I care about how it is now. My days of walking uphill both ways to school in 5 foot snow are over.

This is the age of the snowmobile.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2013-07-30 17:42:54 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
The sum of defense-of-TiDi arguments appears to be 'Purgatory isn't so bad, you should have seen when we were in Hell...'

Really?
Not really, no. The sum of praise for TiDi is: “awesome fights are better than no fights” and “there is no technical solution to human behaviour”. TiDi has solved the problem of server-crushing lag from processing overload and allowed the continued use of a single-sharded design paradigm. There are other problems still to solve but that doesn't mean that TiDi hasn't solved its part of the equation.



That's like saying "I paid $20 cover to go into that ***** bar and all I got was a dry handjob from a 48 yr old dirty house wife.."

"But dude, atleast it was a handjob!"

Praise for TiDi... holy ****.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#73 - 2013-07-30 17:48:18 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Job Valador wrote:
I liked many of your pirate blogs, but this, this is just whining and I have already a crate of cheese ready too mail too you friend.

The sum of defense-of-TiDi arguments appears to be 'Purgatory isn't so bad, you should have seen when we were in Hell...'

Really?

As opposed to what other option?

The only alternative you offer is buzzword-laden handwaving, which is no alternative at all.

Shut up, buzzwords are awesome.

Revenant.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#74 - 2013-07-30 17:50:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
The sum of defense-of-TiDi arguments appears to be 'Purgatory isn't so bad, you should have seen when we were in Hell...'

Really?
Not really, no. The sum of praise for TiDi is: “awesome fights are better than no fights” and “there is no technical solution to human behaviour”. TiDi has solved the problem of server-crushing lag from processing overload and allowed the continued use of a single-sharded design paradigm. There are other problems still to solve but that doesn't mean that TiDi hasn't solved its part of the equation.


That's like saying "I paid $20 cover to go into that ***** bar and all I got was a dry handjob from a 48 yr old dirty house wife.."

"But dude, atleast it was a handjob!"

Praise for TiDi... holy ****.

Actually, its more like paying $500 to an escort for full service (who advertises herself as 'elite' and 'top shelf', and has amazing reviews of her posted by news outlets confirming her singularly elite status), to discover in reality its the 48yr old house wife giving handies....

Then her regulars tell you on the way out, "At least you got a handie -- she used to just take the money and throw us out the door when the lineup got too long...you should be happy you aren't getting kicked out mid handjob now..."

Would you like to know more?
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#75 - 2013-07-30 17:55:03 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
.
Actually, if you stop being ignorant, it's like your "lady friend" advertising her as ready to serve 4 people at parties, and when arriving says she'll serve all 12 of you, but it will take between three and four times as long as the normal 4.
So now that you have gotten out the prostitute-metaphors, or as I saw elsewhere the wife-beater metaphors, or masochist-allegations, or "lazy CCP, y u no hardware???", or "WoW can limit people to 50 participants, then so can EVE!!", can you please also pull your collective heads out of your collective rectums?

Your arguments are really weak and they're frankly tiring to listen to.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#76 - 2013-07-30 17:55:24 UTC
Magical space chikuns will update EVE Online's entire server code, if you pay them enough ISK.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#77 - 2013-07-30 17:56:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Murk Paradox wrote:
That's like saying "I paid $20 cover to go into that ***** bar and all I got was a dry handjob from a 48 yr old dirty house wife.."

"But dude, atleast it was a handjob!"

Praise for TiDi... holy ****.

No, it's like saying “where it was impossible to have big fights without the server breaking, it is now possible to have them without the server breaking” and “having server-breaking collections of people is what the game is all about so it's not something you can design your way out of, but rather have to compensate for through other means”.

No amount of kvetching will change the fact that TiDi has solved the problem of the server breaking and not processing the fight correctly when under high load. Instead of lagging out, it now gracefully degrades the simulation speed to the point where that processing can still take place with very little lag. The larger problem now is really one of client stability, since it seems to have issues with setting up and rendering that many objects.

And yes, the mechanic is being praised for what it allows the players to do. I don't quite get why this is such a shocking revelation.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#78 - 2013-07-30 18:00:07 UTC
Tippia wrote:
No, it's like saying “where it was impossible to have big fights without the server breaking, it is now possible to have them without the server breaking” and “having server-breaking collections of people is what the game is all about so it's not something you can design your way out of, but rather have to compensate for through other means”.

You just don't understand. You could ~have it all~ if only space magic.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
TravelBuoy
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2013-07-30 18:01:20 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
The sum of defense-of-TiDi arguments appears to be 'Purgatory isn't so bad, you should have seen when we were in Hell...'

Really?
Not really, no. The sum of praise for TiDi is: “awesome fights are better than no fights” and “there is no technical solution to human behaviour”. TiDi has solved the problem of server-crushing lag from processing overload and allowed the continued use of a single-sharded design paradigm. There are other problems still to solve but that doesn't mean that TiDi hasn't solved its part of the equation.



That's like saying "I paid $20 cover to go into that ***** bar and all I got was a dry handjob from a 48 yr old dirty house wife.."

"But dude, atleast it was a handjob!"

Praise for TiDi... holy ****.



"21:13 EVE - A NCdot Dominix fleet led by Vince Draken is in system, but still not on the field; they are being plagued by node/disconnect problems"

But he know the Tidi solve the problems. :P Yes, ask NC. fleet which got the black srceen in Tidi. :P
10% Tidi is bullshit actualy, 50% is so-so and maybe playable, but this 10% sh*t is not.
I know i fought many times in tidi and i was there in 6v
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#80 - 2013-07-30 18:02:12 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Tippia wrote:
No, it's like saying “where it was impossible to have big fights without the server breaking, it is now possible to have them without the server breaking” and “having server-breaking collections of people is what the game is all about so it's not something you can design your way out of, but rather have to compensate for through other means”.

You just don't understand. You could ~have it all~ if only space magic.
My space elf is a space magician.
She's also member of the space alliance. And is a space hero.
Sometimes, she even gets to meet the space canon space characters who do things around here, in space.