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2nd Amenedment.

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Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#21 - 2013-07-30 10:35:53 UTC
In addition, here is a paper on the Banning of Firearms in Australia back in 1996.

80% drop in Firearms suicide rate, and homicides by 59%, and no mass killings since the ban.

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#22 - 2013-07-30 10:39:38 UTC
^^ and that's a country that needs guns if one ever did, basically if it's not human it's trying to kill you, if it is human it's losing at cricket or trying to drink you under the table.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#23 - 2013-07-30 11:02:53 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
duglas Luven wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
duglas Luven wrote:



As goes the 2nd so goes the 1st my friend.


You dont need guns for free speech. Any nation that does is in very big trouble.



let me beak it down for you:

An armed citizenry is a free citizenry. The founding fathers wrote the 2nd amendment not to protect our right to hunt. but so that we would be able to protect ourselves from oppression and attack. If the government wishes to silence it's people (free speech) they 1st take the guns away. IE Germany in the 30's, China, USSR under Stalin, Cambodia, the list goes on and on. It starts with a "We need to protect our children" crap, Hit-ler did that. Look where it got the jews and those that SPOKE OUT (again with the free speech). Do you think people would have been rounded up like cattle if they were armed, no they would have resisted it, some would have died, but not millions as it was.

So when i say "As goes the 2nd so goes the 1st my friend" it's very much true and has been proven time and time again.

I guess another way to put it would be: As goes the gun so goes the pen.



Allow me to poke a rather large hole in that argument.

The UK has more freedom than you do while having some of the most restrictive gun laws in the world. Gangs even have timeshares on handguns in this country (I **** you not).
Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
#24 - 2013-07-30 11:27:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Slade Trillgon
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Slade Trillgon wrote:
There are a whole lot of violent deaths to prevent Ugh The powers that be want to keep the population fearful. So, whenever a tragic mass killing occurs it is plastered on every media outlet for days. All the while, all the good news and all the lives saved, with or without the assistance of firearms, by courageous people, are buried in the trenches UghUghEvil

CDC All causes of mortality for the US 2010

Look violent death made it into the top 15

Even adolescent death rates are fractionally caused by violent crime. 1% out of 100,000 deaths

If my point is missed. If those that want to save peoples lives really want to start saving lots of peoples lives they should start mandating exercise and healthy eating as guns really do not kill that many people, but people are definitely hell bent on killing themselves very very slowly, at the expense of the tax payers too boot.

P.S. I do not advocate my last statement even though I am a Health and Wellness Professional.

Just so I do not need to link it later. 'We' can not stop all the violence


"By all accounts, dragons do not kill that many people, compared to polluted water. So, why should we consider dragons an issue of the kingdom?"
"Maybe because we are the only kingdom that both haves an issue with dragon manslaughter and breeds dragons...?"



In a country as ethnically diverse as the US, in a country with a population as large as the US, in a country with the land mass as large as the US, the thought of dropping the murder rate by 3 out of 100,000 persons, by 'significantly' reducing access to firearms, to come in line with the significantly smaller and more ethnically homogeneous countries of Western Europe is ludicrous and a total waste of the tax payers money. Your argument is immature and sheds a tremendous amount of light on your ability to have a conversation.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#25 - 2013-07-30 11:51:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Slade Trillgon wrote:

In a country as ethnically diverse as the US, in a country with a population as large as the US, in a country with the land mass as large as the US, the thought of dropping the murder rate by 3 out of 100,000 persons, by 'significantly' reducing access to firearms, to come in line with the significantly smaller and more ethnically homogeneous countries of Western Europe is ludicrous and a total waste of the tax payers money. Your argument is immature and sheds a tremendous amount of light on your ability to have a conversation.

Western Europe ethnically homogeneous? You're having a giggle. We draw upon the same pool of immigrants as the US, namely everybody else in the world. While individual western European populations may be smaller, collectively there's 500(ish) million people of all creeds and colours spread over 27 countries (or states), by comparison I believe the US has 315(ish) million in a far larger area although split into 50 states.

TL;DR Europe might be smaller, but it has a larger population, a lower death by firearms rate and is as ethnically diverse, if not more so, than the United States.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
#26 - 2013-07-30 12:10:17 UTC
Why all that excitement ? The gov doesn't care about amendments and civil rights at all. Just do your stuff :-)

0ccupational Hazzard --> check out the true love story 

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#27 - 2013-07-30 12:29:44 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

Western Europe ethnically homogeneous? You're having a giggle.

TL;DR Europe might be smaller, but it has a larger population, a lower death by firearms rate and is as ethnically diverse, if not more so, than the United States.



I didn't want to post in this trash-heap of a thread that is going to be locked any moment now, but............

That gave me a good giggle too. BUT, from my experience, especially the 17 years I lived in San Fran, I believe America and Western Europe are both about equal in ethnic diversity.

Even my hometown of 5,000 in rural Arkansas is about 1/4 Hispanic and has a rather 'large' Vietnamese population, 2 populations that did not even exist there AT ALL when we moved away in 1976.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#28 - 2013-07-30 12:42:11 UTC
It depends how you define "ethnic". Does a distinct German/French/British ethnicity exist? Line them up and without them speaking you couldn't pick one from the other. If you're implying only white people live here I'll have to point out that that is incorrect.

On the other hand I do have to point out the concept of Hispanic/Latino is unique to the US, due to it trying to define the Anglo component against the newcomers. Over here we have Spain and Portugal in union with us, just another bit of the Continent.

Funnily enough our religious fracture isn't different flavours of Christianity, its Secular vs Islam which is getting more intense by the year. A hardcore of Islamists take everything literally and have committed a series of terrorist acts that polarises the debate between PC "tolerance" and "diversity" where what we really need is some assimilation and integration with existing secular structures.

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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#29 - 2013-07-30 13:11:48 UTC
Slade Trillgon wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
"By all accounts, dragons do not kill that many people, compared to polluted water. So, why should we consider dragons an issue of the kingdom?"
"Maybe because we are the only kingdom that both haves an issue with dragon manslaughter and breeds dragons...?"



In a country as ethnically diverse as the US, in a country with a population as large as the US, in a country with the land mass as large as the US, the thought of dropping the murder rate by 3 out of 100,000 persons, by 'significantly' reducing access to firearms, to come in line with the significantly smaller and more ethnically homogeneous countries of Western Europe is ludicrous and a total waste of the tax payers money. Your argument is immature and sheds a tremendous amount of light on your ability to have a conversation.


So according to you, more diverse countries are more violent (proof?), larger countries are more violent (proof?) and more populated countries are more violent (proof?).

And yet there are countries more diverse than the USA but less violent, larger than the USA but less violent, and more populated than the USA but less violent.Blink

Here you have an argument you won't be able to deny: provided any ratio of incidents per gun, more guns mean more incidents.

That's the wall were "weepons for safety" crashes like a barrel of bricks.

And don't even get me started on the arms race between agressors and soft targets -that is, the more you harden a "soft" target, the weakest will be the next soft target attacked. FAI: Harden colleges, target will be primary schools. Harden primary schools, target become kindergartens. Harden kindergartens, the target become unarmed children. Harden children, the target become younger children. Harden younger children, the target become toddlers. Harden toddlers... uh-oh. You can't sensibly arm a toddler, can you? And yet the guy about to splatter you newborn's brains on the wall won't need to be doing anything ilegal until he actually pulls the trigger.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#30 - 2013-07-30 13:14:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirjava
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


So according to you, more diverse countries are more violent (proof?), larger countries are more violent (proof?) and more populated countries are more violent (proof?)..


Yugoslavia, USSR, India/Pakistan/Bangladesh, Kurdistan, Nigeria, USA.

Gonna have to side with Slade on this one.

For ethnicaly homogenous contries, Japan, South Korea (I think we can take the North/South split as an aberration, but internally the North and South aren't that violent). Compare and contrast Hurricane Katrina in the US and Fukoshima in Japan to see how a diverse/united population reacts to a natural disaster.

Personaly its more a mentality thing of us and them, and the lowest common denominator drives opinion in unfortunate directions, and the politicians running the show don't need to follow the same opinion to build political capital out of it. Its disgusting, but its the story of every war and divide in history.

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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#31 - 2013-07-30 13:28:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Kirjava wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


So according to you, more diverse countries are more violent (proof?), larger countries are more violent (proof?) and more populated countries are more violent (proof?)..


Yugoslavia, USSR, India/Pakistan/Bangladesh, Kurdistan, Nigeria.

Gonna have to side with Slade on this one.


Former Yugoslavia, small country, small population, 6 main native ethnicities (up to 10).

Spain, average country, average population, 4 main native ethnicities (up to 6).

China, very large country, massive population, 47 main native ethnicities (up to 213).

From the data above, pick the more violent country, please. Blink

What makes the USA unique it's their disproportionate (and to foreigners, crazy) love for weapons. Not diversity, not size, and not population.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
#32 - 2013-07-30 13:30:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Slade Trillgon
I may have been very sloppy in making my point. I was pushing towards the concept of culture clashes. Yes, European Countries are extremely diverse (my apologies for implying they were not), but the States have the same racial bloodlines that all European countries have, plus all the blood lines of Central and South America, plus a significantly smaller secular population. I will hypothesize a much more diverse and in your face religious spectrum. Violent clashes are never eliminated hence why Western European nations still have murder rates.

I will again point out that the homicide rate in the States is less than 5 out of 100,000 and the homicide rate of most Western European countries is less than 2 out of 100,000 deaths, with a few slightly under 1 in 100,000. Considering the amount of guns in the States and according to the arguments of most anti-gun advocates we should have murder by guns homicide rates similar to these countriesShocked

So my point is that violent clashes will not subside with more extreme gun control measures. Also, lets just say that guns were miraculously erased from the US population, the lunatics that commit mass murder will revert to more traditional and potentially more devastating measures.
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#33 - 2013-07-30 13:34:03 UTC
I was ignoring size, a better description would be overpopulation. I was going for nations or former nations with a pluraity of ethnicities, and in some cases a distinct major group (Russians in the USSR, Anglos in the US and Serbs in the Yugoslavia). Check the percentages of the Han within China, and how they repopulated Tibet with the preffered ethnic group. Similar story in the other provinces, the trend is to change the demographics to absolute within China as a whole, and in the provinces.

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#34 - 2013-07-30 15:38:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Slade Trillgon wrote:
I may have been very sloppy in making my point. I was pushing towards the concept of culture clashes. Yes, European Countries are extremely diverse (my apologies for implying they were not), but the States have the same racial bloodlines that all European countries have, plus all the blood lines of Central and South America


Those Central and South American blood lines? They're a hodgepodge of various peoples including European, African, Asian, Arabic and whatever indigenous peoples managed to survive the brutality of the Conquistadores and the diseases they brought with them. So in effect they're not actually that different from the bloodlines Europe has to draw upon, as the native population was essentially culled in the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries. I've lived and worked in Central America, and have friends from many countries in that region of the world, most of them are of European ancestry, mainly Spanish and Portuguese.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#35 - 2013-07-30 16:10:25 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
It depends how you define "ethnic". Does a distinct German/French/British ethnicity exist?



There isn't much resemblance between Hispanics and Vietnamese. Kinda easy to pick who's who,tbh.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#36 - 2013-07-30 16:15:25 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Kirjava wrote:
It depends how you define "ethnic". Does a distinct German/French/British ethnicity exist?



There isn't much resemblance between Hispanics and Vietnamese. Kinda easy to pick who's who,tbh.

You tell me, I've seen Blacks and Whites interchangeably called Hispanic Ugh

I was reffering to the tendency in western Europe these days to focus on less the differences between the slight differences between our nations as we coalesce into a unified state. Go to France, Euros are there. Got to Germany, Euros again. Kind of us getting over the nationalisms that destroyed out Empires in the World Wars and focus on the rest of the world becoming more noticeably different from us, hence the impulse to close ranks, forgive old feuds and integrate.

I would honestly consider France closer to Britain these days than the Commonwealth or the USA.

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Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-07-30 16:15:58 UTC
Posting in yet another "gun control" thread before yet another lock.

Why are you so obsessed with guns that the very same topic has to come up here about every week?

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.

Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#38 - 2013-07-30 16:24:53 UTC
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
Posting in yet another "gun control" thread before yet another lock.

Why are you so obsessed with guns that the very same topic has to come up here about every week?

Basically this.

I have grown to acknowledge that the bulk of US debates escalate to the Constitution, and hence Freedom of Speech and guns, almost interchangeably.

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Hells Merc
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-07-30 16:27:47 UTC
Slade Trillgon wrote:
For example this news did not make National NewsUgh

The above hero is one tough SOB and it sucks that he was not carrying a gun Ugh




"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."


Well done that man.


Hells Merc
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-07-30 16:35:46 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
People kill people, guns make it easier.

Switzerland is better armed than the US, conclusion is that US culture that is ****** up, not the concept of being armed.



You probably need to check the cities where gun crime is prevalent.

It can be as simple as the politics of the city and the consequent draconian guns laws preventing
good people from protecting their family, friends and property.

Only law abiding people obey laws.

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
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