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Is Raven worth the extra cost vs Dominix for level 4s?

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Lazy8s
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-07-30 13:01:58 UTC
I just came back after 3 years off. I apparently have 2mil SP to spend immediately (on top of the 9.7mil I already have). I'm looking at a vanilla Raven with all T2 fittings vs a vanilla Dominix with all T2 fittings (except faction sentries). I can fly both basically immediately.

Since I couldn't decide I started lolking ahead to the Navy Dominix and the Navy Raven. Holy crap!! The Navy Raven will cost me over 2bil ISK easily!! Why?? Looking at Navy Domi builds it seems both can crank out 800-900DPS with level 4ish skills. Why does the Raven cost SO MUCH more?

I guess my real concern is if I train for A Dominix now to save ISK will I be wishing I had a Navy Raven in the future due to some massive advantage they have? Or is this one of those video game phenomenons where people pay 100x as much for a 5% improvement?
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-07-30 13:22:42 UTC
The Navy Raven basically got back into the top tier of mission boats with the Odyssey changes, both to its own hull and to cruise missiles in general, which significantly buffed its ability to handle smaller targets. The base hull's price shot up due to a spike in demand, true, but it seems to have stabilized at the 500-600 million mark.

I honestly can't see a Navy Raven needing two billion to fit out unless you're using T2 rigs and/or lots of faction gear - which aren't really necessary, especially given the hull bonus to missile explosion radius and the seven-mid-slot setup you can use for both shield tanking and target painting.

For versatility, a basic Dominix has a bit of an advantage over the Navy Domi, which has a lot of its DPS tied up in hybrids which can't be tuned to targets - a problem the Raven and its Navy variant don't have, due to the selectable pure damage type missiles give you.

I'd say start out with whatever T1 hull you're more comfortable with, and then build up a nest egg for its faction equivalent.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Kery Nysell
#3 - 2013-07-30 13:28:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kery Nysell
Uuuh, I fail to see how you could go to 2 billions for a Navy Raven ...

AFAIK, the hull itself costs around 500 millions, and it works really well with T2 fittings ... no need to go "all faction" on it ...

Depends mostly on your style of play, tough.

Dominix = Sentries, long range, armor tank.

Raven = Missiles, long range too, shield tank (NOT perma-boosted)

Rigs would also depend on the hull and what you use it for ...

BTW, the Navy Dominix is also in the 500 millions range, at least at Jita prices.

Since I'm primarily Caldari-trained, I tend to prefer the Navy Raven, for it's adaptable damage types at long range, a thing that the Dominix can also do, but with varied ranges depending on the Sentries.

Also, in the Caldari branch, there is the Navy Scorpion, with it's 8 mid slots and resistance bonuses, that can have a better tank than the Navy Raven with a slightly reduced damage output ...

And finally, if you raise both Battleship skills, there's the Rattlesnake, Missiles + Sentries, but that one costs around a billion for the hull ...

EDIT : my bad, looks like the Rattler went down to 600-750 millions

...
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-07-30 13:33:49 UTC
As of 30 July, actually, you can buy a Rattlesnake in Jita for less than the price of a Navy Raven.

501 million ISK. So help me Abner Doubleday.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-07-30 13:45:12 UTC
Marc Callan wrote:
I honestly can't see a Navy Raven needing two billion to fit out unless you're using T2 rigs and/or lots of faction gear - which aren't really necessary, especially given the hull bonus to missile explosion radius and the seven-mid-slot setup you can use for both shield tanking and target painting.


With 4 CN BCUs, Pith C-Type XL booster, C-type shield boost amp, faction AB and T2 rigs it's not even breaking 1,4 billion.

But this only proves that missile rigs and deadspace shield modules are overpriced.
Kery Nysell
#6 - 2013-07-30 13:54:46 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Marc Callan wrote:
I honestly can't see a Navy Raven needing two billion to fit out unless you're using T2 rigs and/or lots of faction gear - which aren't really necessary, especially given the hull bonus to missile explosion radius and the seven-mid-slot setup you can use for both shield tanking and target painting.


With 4 CN BCUs, Pith C-Type XL booster, C-type shield boost amp, faction AB and T2 rigs it's not even breaking 1,4 billion.

But this only proves that missile rigs and deadspace shield modules are overpriced.


And not really needed ... the few %s more from the faction mods don't make a world of difference, nor are they vital for the ship to work Roll

...
Lemok Sonji
Lethal Devotion
Escalation Theory
#7 - 2013-07-30 14:42:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Lemok Sonji
From my experience on both the dominix and the CNR and raven, if you look at how fast you can complete missions, than CNR > raven > dominix.

With T2 missiles (precision for anything under BS and fury for BSs), you can 1 shot almost anything with 4 missiles on the CNR with one or two TPs under a BS (which takes max 3 volleys now with good enough skills).
This makes is so valuable as not every mission is "stand still and shoot stuff" which is the dominix way, as you can't get too far from the sentries to scoop them back if they get aggro or you need to move to a gate, and sentries aren't very useful if something comes too close, while missiles will hit every time.

With the new NPC AI and drone aggro, sentries aren't as efficient anymore as they used to be. T2 missiles is an amazing thing these days.

And the cost to fit a CNR to do this isn't that high. 2B is if you really want to pimp it up.
Voxinian
#8 - 2013-07-31 12:30:31 UTC
I would go for the scorpion navy over the raven. More mid slots, more versatile, better tank.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#9 - 2013-07-31 12:36:53 UTC
Kery Nysell wrote:
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Marc Callan wrote:
I honestly can't see a Navy Raven needing two billion to fit out unless you're using T2 rigs and/or lots of faction gear - which aren't really necessary, especially given the hull bonus to missile explosion radius and the seven-mid-slot setup you can use for both shield tanking and target painting.


With 4 CN BCUs, Pith C-Type XL booster, C-type shield boost amp, faction AB and T2 rigs it's not even breaking 1,4 billion.

But this only proves that missile rigs and deadspace shield modules are overpriced.


And not really needed ... the few %s more from the faction mods don't make a world of difference, nor are they vital for the ship to work Roll


So far as the BCUs go, the 16 CPU they each save you over the T2 is the most valuable attribute.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#10 - 2013-07-31 12:38:13 UTC
Voxinian wrote:
I would go for the scorpion navy over the raven. More mid slots, more versatile, better tank.


For someone who hasn't played for a long time, this is actually pretty good advice. You'll have to work quite hard to lose a navy scorp to L4s.

Later, the CNR's better damage application will be worth more than extra tank you don't need once you know the missions.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Voxinian
#11 - 2013-07-31 13:45:48 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Voxinian wrote:
I would go for the scorpion navy over the raven. More mid slots, more versatile, better tank.


For someone who hasn't played for a long time, this is actually pretty good advice. You'll have to work quite hard to lose a navy scorp to L4s.

Later, the CNR's better damage application will be worth more than extra tank you don't need once you know the missions.


I used to do L4s all the time (till I got bored with them). I also used the Raven, but I feel safer in the Scorpion. If you accidently agro an entire pocket, the heavy tank of the Scorpion can hold out long enough to clear the pocket without having to chicken/warp out. :)
stoicfaux
#12 - 2013-07-31 14:00:52 UTC
Lazy8s wrote:
I just came back after 3 years off. I apparently have 2mil SP to spend immediately (on top of the 9.7mil I already have). I'm looking at a vanilla Raven with all T2 fittings vs a vanilla Dominix with all T2 fittings (except faction sentries). I can fly both basically immediately.

Since I couldn't decide I started lolking ahead to the Navy Dominix and the Navy Raven. Holy crap!! The Navy Raven will cost me over 2bil ISK easily!! Why?? Looking at Navy Domi builds it seems both can crank out 800-900DPS with level 4ish skills. Why does the Raven cost SO MUCH more?

The vanilla Dominix drone optimal range bonus means it can put out 650 to 800 DPS just with T2 sentry drones out to 70+km. It might be easier to drop your free SP into T2 sentries instead of maxing out your missile skills and/or building up hybrid skills for the Navy Domi. Look for MJD Domi fits.

Quote:
I guess my real concern is if I train for A Dominix now to save ISK will I be wishing I had a Navy Raven in the future due to some massive advantage they have? Or is this one of those video game phenomenons where people pay 100x as much for a 5% improvement?

First, there's no massive advantage anymore. The price difference between the Raven and Navy Raven hulls isn't that dramatic since you "need" T2 rigs on the Raven, but can get away with T1 rigs on the Navy Raven. (According the numbers I've run.)

Navy Raven is a bit of conundrum. It's great if you don't have perfect missile skills, but you need really good fitting skills. But when you have max missile skills, it's explosion radius bonus isn't that useful anymore.

OTOH, the standard Raven with max missile skills and T2 rigs is basically on par (or better) than the Navy Raven due to having a RoF bonus. So yes, the Navy Raven might not be worth the price difference due to a minimal or negligible performance difference.


tl;dr - Raven good. CNR good, easy to apply DPS, but very tight fitting. SNI good, very newbie friendly in terms of tank and fitting. With the tiericide and cruise missile buffs, all the cruise platforms are pretty much equal in terms of DPS. So make your decision on the secondary characteristics of the hulls.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.