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Lag, TiDi, 6-VT and you...

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Lugalbandak
Doomheim
#41 - 2013-07-30 08:50:28 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
How as paying EvE users did we come to accept UI razzle dazzle and gimmicks instead of a true remedy to lag? When did nullsec alliances give up the ghost, and like a victim of Stokholm syndrome buy into the notion that TiDi is some kind of answer to the rediculous fail of lag on the single-shard, single-sandbox?

I don't get it.

Can someone explain this please? It wasn't so long ago people were burning Jita because of micro-transactions, yet now with increasing server lag fail the response is 'meh'?



Dude , fooking biggest online game battle ever in history , what i heard everbody had fun , server dindt crash and it was playble only very slomoooooo

Instead of whine give probs to ccp

o/P

The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back
SKINE DMZ
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-07-30 11:14:37 UTC
the "eve is the only game where 4k players fight is possible" argument is boring, most big online games would be able to support this at 10% speed, they just know that is a really bad solution to the problem and rather limit it in other ways so that players can continue to fight at 100% speed like they are supposed to.

I disagree
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2013-07-30 11:21:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
SKINE DMZ wrote:
the "eve is the only game where 4k players fight is possible" argument is boring, most big online games would be able to support this at 10% speed, they just know that is a really bad solution to the problem and rather limit it in other ways so that players can continue to fight at 100% speed like they are supposed to.

What other big online game has the possibility of having 4k players battle against each other all at once ?

edit:
"possibility" as in: having actually that many players in one group, at one place.

I'm asking, because you say that these big online games put artificial limits on purpose,
while i doubt they have the actual chance of such things happening in the first place...
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#44 - 2013-07-30 11:23:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
SKINE DMZ wrote:
the "eve is the only game where 4k players fight is possible" argument is boring, most big online games would be able to support this at 10% speed, they just know that is a really bad solution to the problem and rather limit it in other ways so that players can continue to fight at 100% speed like they are supposed to.
…sooo… how many games out there support even a 400-people fight? You know, 10× less to correspond to the 10× faster execution?

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Can someone explain this please? It wasn't so long ago people were burning Jita because of micro-transactions, yet now with increasing server lag fail the response is 'meh'?
Well, let's see… one was about the developers showing the intention to fundamentally break the game; the other was about the developers trying to take the game to new heights of grandiose battles.

And you say people responded differently to these events? Hard to imagine… Roll
Meanwhile, TiDi is a true remedy to lag. The problem you're having is that you're confusing “slow” with “laggy”.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#45 - 2013-07-30 11:25:19 UTC
SKINE DMZ wrote:
the "eve is the only game where 4k players fight is possible" argument is boring, most big online games would be able to support this at 10% speed, they just know that is a really bad solution to the problem and rather limit it in other ways so that players can continue to fight at 100% speed like they are supposed to.
Yes, like limiting it to 200 people or fewer before telling the next guy "nope, you can't participate, limit reached."
I'd really love for all these utterly braindead morons to go out and find a new&improved version of CCP's military grade hardware supernode, bring it to Iceland, fix lag forever (Also so that it scales to 9 001 and 11 000) and then tell us to stop cheering for TiDi.
And that's not because we love TiDi, in fact one of the most often uttered sentence when forming fleets/moving fleets is "-coarse word for sexual intercourse in 4 letters- TiDi", but we do love that the node survives and the fight can actually happen.
4 000 people in a single system?
Yes please, will join again.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#46 - 2013-07-30 11:26:19 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
What other big online game has the possibility of having 4k players battle against each other all at once ?
I like your new face.
*rawr*
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2013-07-30 11:28:13 UTC
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:
What other big online game has the possibility of having 4k players battle against each other all at once ?
I like your new face.
*rawr*
<3 <3 :D
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2013-07-30 11:29:45 UTC
TiDi is exactly why we need an EvE II.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2013-07-30 11:31:54 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
TiDi is exactly why we need an EvE II.
I always liked reading your trollposts. ^_^
Ace, with his wow-addiction though, beats everybody.
SKINE DMZ
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2013-07-30 11:48:01 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
SKINE DMZ wrote:
the "eve is the only game where 4k players fight is possible" argument is boring, most big online games would be able to support this at 10% speed, they just know that is a really bad solution to the problem and rather limit it in other ways so that players can continue to fight at 100% speed like they are supposed to.

What other big online game has the possibility of having 4k players battle against each other all at once ?

edit:
"possibility" as in: having actually that many players in one group, at one place.

I'm asking, because you say that these big online games put artificial limits on purpose,
while i doubt they have the actual chance of such things happening in the first place...

they don't happen because they haven't made it possible to happen, that doesn't mean they couldn't of made them happen at 10% normal speed including regular lag of having so many people in one area. It just means that is never a good solution and it is better to put limits on to make it an enjoyable experience for every one.

I watched some of the fight, it looked cool (but also extremely boring), and again i can't believe the patience some of these pilots have, just to be a single pawn on the chess board(yet extreme amounts of moaning in local of people who did not want to be there), overall good fight though.. will I be watching again? hell no, not until they find a solution to the issue in a game which advertises 10000's of people in the same server, but doesn't advertise that once a fight of a few thousand happen the game runs at 10% speed.

I disagree
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
#51 - 2013-07-30 12:09:22 UTC
SKINE DMZ wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:
SKINE DMZ wrote:
the "eve is the only game where 4k players fight is possible" argument is boring, most big online games would be able to support this at 10% speed, they just know that is a really bad solution to the problem and rather limit it in other ways so that players can continue to fight at 100% speed like they are supposed to.

What other big online game has the possibility of having 4k players battle against each other all at once ?

edit:
"possibility" as in: having actually that many players in one group, at one place.

I'm asking, because you say that these big online games put artificial limits on purpose,
while i doubt they have the actual chance of such things happening in the first place...

they don't happen because they haven't made it possible to happen, that doesn't mean they couldn't of made them happen at 10% normal speed including regular lag of having so many people in one area. It just means that is never a good solution and it is better to put limits on to make it an enjoyable experience for every one.

I watched some of the fight, it looked cool (but also extremely boring), and again i can't believe the patience some of these pilots have, just to be a single pawn on the chess board(yet extreme amounts of moaning in local of people who did not want to be there), overall good fight though.. will I be watching again? hell no, not until they find a solution to the issue in a game which advertises 10000's of people in the same server, but doesn't advertise that once a fight of a few thousand happen the game runs at 10% speed.


No.

They don't happen because the 'big online games' don't have the required servers or infrastructure to do it.

Simples
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2013-07-30 12:18:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
SKINE DMZ wrote:
they don't happen because they haven't made it possible to happen, that doesn't mean they couldn't of made them happen at 10% normal speed including regular lag of having so many people in one area. It just means that is never a good solution and it is better to put limits on to make it an enjoyable experience for every one.

I watched some of the fight, it looked cool (but also extremely boring), and again i can't believe the patience some of these pilots have, just to be a single pawn on the chess board(yet extreme amounts of moaning in local of people who did not want to be there), overall good fight though.. will I be watching again? hell no, not until they find a solution to the issue in a game which advertises 10000's of people in the same server, but doesn't advertise that once a fight of a few thousand happen the game runs at 10% speed.
You did not answer my question.
At all.

You talked about "big online games".

I want to know which one(s). What's that big online games you're talking about,
that COULD have something like this happening,
but the developers just "choose" to not let it happen ?
(edit: and how does that even make sense ...)

I don't care about your opinion, i want the facts.

Thanks.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2013-07-30 12:21:21 UTC
Ruskarn Andedare wrote:
No.

They don't happen because the 'big online games' don't have the required servers or infrastructure to do it.

Simples
Personally, i doubt the "big online games" even have enough people for pulling this off.

Not saying they lack subscribers, but i'd say they lack enough people (spread in two groups)
actually having reason and will to do it. Not even talking about technical limitations.

Disclaimer: I have no idea about any other online-game out there and that's why i ask.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#54 - 2013-07-30 12:25:09 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
No, you're absolutely right, the answer is "a modern code kernel and underlying infrastructure that can dynamically allocate resources," and there are absolutely no devils lurking in the implementation details. Nope. None whatsoever.

Sarcasm aside, CCP has had some very bright people working on this problem since... Incursion, I believe. If it was a simple problem, they would have solved it long since. It's not a simple problem.

TiDi makes lag equal and predictable for all participants, which is a net win.


So if a wife beater spreads his beatings equally amongst the family, instead of focussing on the wife alone, this is a net win; as opposed to him addressing the root issue and not giving beatings? Did I get that about right?

You sir, are an EvE TiDi Stokholm syndrome victim; seek help immediately....


Something tells me your ignorance spreads farther than computer technology and Eve...

Please go die in a fire (in game).

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
#55 - 2013-07-30 12:46:13 UTC
That fight was running on a state of the art server with one of these I believe.

CCP dedicates a lot of time to refactoring code and reducing lag. For quite a while Need for Speed was the #1 CCP initiative, and no doubt all new features take those considerations into account.

Short of ripping out massive amounts of code and spending 2 years redeveloping the simulation code, net code, and hardware configuration from the ground up to support intra-grid multithreading (Eve was developed before a dual core CPU even existed), we're just going to have to hope that single threaded performance gets a boost hardware side.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-07-30 13:00:37 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
Ruskarn Andedare wrote:
No.

They don't happen because the 'big online games' don't have the required servers or infrastructure to do it.

Simples
Personally, i doubt the "big online games" even have enough people for pulling this off.

Not saying they lack subscribers, but i'd say they lack enough people (spread in two groups)
actually having reason and will to do it. Not even talking about technical limitations.

Disclaimer: I have no idea about any other online-game out there and that's why i ask.


WoW nodes did handle much more than 400 at full speed but the load is different. The whole world is handled by a single node just like 6VDT was handled by a single node. The load is really different tho. The graphical effect are much more intensive than EVE and thats what usually kills the flow of combat way before the server stop being able to handle anything at full speed. The client side start gagging much faster than the server because there is too much damn thing to render at the same time. EVE seems to be cranking less the eye candies in favor of a much more playable game in case of massive encounter.

A WoW node would at 10% speed would probably handle the load and then go "Where the hell is everyone?" after the clients started crashign elft and right.

The EVE node just say "Chill the **** down and we'll get there." then start doing all the work at a reduced peace.

The 2 end results are tightly linked to what the game were designed to deliver. EVE is developping to provide massive fights so it made it's architecture in a way to handle that. It makes sacrifice to achive that goal. Other games were though differently so they handle the same thing in a different way.

People should be happy that CCP went the way it did to enable the battle happening. Who the hell care about still having 1 second ticks if those ticks are showing a black screen?
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#57 - 2013-07-30 14:29:29 UTC
mechtech wrote:
Short of ripping out massive amounts of code and spending 2 years redeveloping the simulation code, net code, and hardware configuration from the ground up to support intra-grid multithreading (Eve was developed before a dual core CPU even existed), we're just going to have to hope that single threaded performance gets a boost hardware side.


CCP is doing this, as we speak. What the OP doesn't seem to understand is that refactoring a single-threaded design to use multithreading is a hard problem--hell, designing a robust multithreaded system from scratch is hard enough--and even if Veritas gets results beyond his wildest estimations, the performance of the game at the furthest extreme of the servers' capabilities will always be compromised one way or another. CCP can push the furthest extreme out as far as they can, and that's about it. So there will still be a role for Time Dilation to play.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#58 - 2013-07-30 14:51:41 UTC
The hardware/software challenges are tough. Good luck CCP.

In the meantime - CCP has to do something about the ballot-box-stuffing mechanic. As of now, to win a system all you need to do is get 4K people in system first.

Only suggestion I can think of iis that for reinforced nodes (and I'm sure 6VDT looked like Fort Knox compared to all the other nodes) there is a split allocation of slots which FC's sign into when they form a fleet. Sounds like the Tourney, eh?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2013-07-30 15:55:47 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I once bought a piece of crap car because my older car blew an engine and I had a chance to get a crap car that ran instead of the better car I had that could no longer run (needed an engine replaced). This older pos car was a temporary fix until I was at a spot I could afford to A)Get a new car, or B)Replace the motor in my old car.

The salesman didn't try saying how good the car was, he flat out listened to me and understood I was on a budget and simply sold me a car.


A better analogy would be that you couldn't use your roadster because you had to haul 30 kids to a game, and you're complaining that the bus you had to use didn't handle like a roadster.

Well, duh.

CCP can optimize and optimize and optimize--in case you missed the relevant article, the game already runs on the equivalent of a supercomputer, and it's considered a technological marvel--but look at the numbers: 6VDT was a 4000-member fight between a ~13,000 member alliance (plus ~mumble~ allies) and a ~35,000 member coalition. Do you believe for a second that if the node had been able to host 6,000 people instead, that it wouldn't have been a 6,000 member fleet fight?

Time Dilation allows the game to run fairly and predictably under loads that would make any other engine curl up in a fetal crouch and cry for mommy. That is a feature.



My argument is that Eve advertises that it wants to have that 6,000 member fight but has to rework their entire architecture to support 4,000 in a terrible way (2,000 is usually difficult) for 1 day of long intense planning.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2013-07-30 15:58:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Xearal wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Xearal wrote:
OP, you do realise of course that NO OTHER GAME IN THE WORLD can handle 4000 people in the same area all shooting each other.





Technically, neither could Eve.


yesterday disagrees with you.



All the people disconnecting and not being able to login back in until the TiDi cycle completed cannot confirm that disagreement =(

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.