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Bloody Hands on Atlanins
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Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#81 - 2013-07-29 21:46:15 UTC
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:
Ugleb wrote:
As to your hypothetical question, would I expect a large Gallentean population to assimilate into Minmatar Tribal culture? No, I would not. I would not, because they cannot. We are born Minmatar, we are born a part of our Tribe and the greater Minmatar whole. It is not something that could ever be awarded by sitting a citizenship examination. That is the fundamental difference between us, the Federation, and indeed the State or even Empire, believes that it can make anybody from any background into a citizen or subject. We do not believe that anyone can simply become a Minmatar.

We ask that you try to understand us and respect our differences, but we are not asking that you become us.


tl;dr: We're special.


Unique, yes. At least I didn't say that I consider us to be superior or the chosen of a higher being or what have you. That would have just been plain arrogant of me.

http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/

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Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2013-07-29 23:52:42 UTC
Ugleb wrote:
As I said, the cause of the Exodous was the poor state of the Republic's economy at that time coupled with dissatisfaction over the leadership of the day and their failure to address the problem. Primarily, people left to find work because they could not find it back home. Things have improved since and continue to do so, but not enough to spark a reversal of the trend on anything like the same scale.

I do not believe that these huge numbers of people were inspired by ideology to uproot the lives, it was simply born of a necessity to provide for themselves and their families.


Yet the vast majority of those immigrants decided that they liked living in the Federation so much that they chose to become citizens instead of remaining resident aliens. For a Republican, that's got to rankle.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#83 - 2013-07-30 02:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
When then may we expect this vast number of Tribals being culturally oppressed in the wicked Federation to leave?

I do hope when they decide to return to the "tribal state" they won't be taking any of that wicked culturally oppressive money they gained while in the Federation with them?

The point you seem to be missing is had you Tribals taken better care of your kin in the first place the Federation wouldn't have had to.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Dobie Mercault
Special Admirer Philosophy Club
#84 - 2013-07-30 02:44:46 UTC
You're a first rate **** stirrer, Ms. Akahoshi, but let's be real here just a moment. The only thing a Gallente of any kind can teach a Matari is how to be exploited, and that's a lesson they already had drilled into them once before. They hardly need a refresher course.

They hardly need to be called a "fledgling nation" either, by what I'm sure are well-meaning Caldari observers, heh! Are these the same observers that write the history books that state the Republic once posses a level of mechanical excellence never before seen or since, or whatever the line is? Being blapped by a 1400mm round should be mandatory for any "historian" wanting to write about Matari mechanical engineering.

But I lose myself....what was I saying. Oh, and when you rouse rabbles over Ugleb aligning the concerns of the Bloody Hand with the Republic at large, and complain that he's painting everyone with the same brush, you should be careful that you too aren't speaking for large sections of people, like you seemed to be doing when you said everyone is integrating just fine in our lil' ol' Fed, and their concerns aren't really concerns!

Their concerns are just like discussing Quafe flavors!? Haha! That's absolutely the metaphor you wanted there to illustrate my point. Well done.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2013-07-30 04:43:00 UTC
See, folks? Expressing concerns. This is how it's done.

'Course I think he's pretty much dead wrong, but that's just me...

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#86 - 2013-07-30 06:55:02 UTC
Ugleb wrote:
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Ugleb wrote:
Or, they could follow your lead and blindly insist that there are no underlying issues surrounding this event and that Gallente society has flawlessly integrated many millions of immigrants in only a few years, miraculously eliminating any and all sources of racial tension.


While I don't think you could ever say that any people as a whole are "flawlessly integrated" into the Federation, the historically-minded among us will notice that most of the Federation Matari have been living in the Federation for generations, and that they've in general managed to be integrated quite nicely. They're a huge segment of the Federation, making up a number of extremely powerful voting blocs, living everywhere from fully integrated metropolises to relatively monoracial enclaves. They enjoy greater standards of living, on average, than citizens of the Republic. They are free to follow their tribal culture - or not - as they choose. With that in mind...

Ugleb wrote:
I suspect that the Bloody Hand may now be finding new recruits among the Minmatar population within the Federation.


...I'm very curious about your reasoning for making that statement.



Less than eight years ago it was identified by the University of Caille that the beginnings of an unprecedented and massive exodous of Minmatar into the Federation had begun. They were later proven right as the influx of immigrants intensified and continued for years to come until the trend was finally curbed by the advent of the Elder War and transitioning of the Republic's government under SanbMatar Shakor's leadership.

Throughout the duration of the Great Exodous the Republic continued to fall on economic and social hard times made worse by increasingly frequent labour shortages in the outer colonies as more and more people packed up and left their homes behind to settle in the Federation.

My point here is simple enough. Vast numbers of Minmatar who were born and raised within the Republic and its Tribal culture now live within the Federation and have been there for only a few years. Those are the people who I have been referring to as not yet being fully integrated and at considerable risk of being alienating by recent events. The article highlighted by Katarina Musana is an excellent example of this.


And even vaster numbers were already in the Federation, having never resided in the Republic.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Steffanie Saissore
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#87 - 2013-07-30 07:05:01 UTC
Dobie Mercault wrote:
You're a first rate **** stirrer, Ms. Akahoshi, but let's be real here just a moment. The only thing a Gallente of any kind can teach a Matari is how to be exploited, and that's a lesson they already had drilled into them once before. They hardly need a refresher course.

They hardly need to be called a "fledgling nation" either, by what I'm sure are well-meaning Caldari observers, heh! Are these the same observers that write the history books that state the Republic once posses a level of mechanical excellence never before seen or since, or whatever the line is? Being blapped by a 1400mm round should be mandatory for any "historian" wanting to write about Matari mechanical engineering.

But I lose myself....what was I saying. Oh, and when you rouse rabbles over Ugleb aligning the concerns of the Bloody Hand with the Republic at large, and complain that he's painting everyone with the same brush, you should be careful that you too aren't speaking for large sections of people, like you seemed to be doing when you said everyone is integrating just fine in our lil' ol' Fed, and their concerns aren't really concerns!

Their concerns are just like discussing Quafe flavors!? Haha! That's absolutely the metaphor you wanted there to illustrate my point. Well done.


What side of the bed did you wake up on?

I'm all for a debate and discussion, but tone down the indignant attitude friend.

You say the only thing we can teach the Matari is how to be exploited? Really? I see that we've provided for them and given the opportunities they didn't have before. Hardly exploitation, but then again, the jaded ignorance of youth would see that as exploiting a people.

The Minmatar are a proud and strong people, I'm sure they don't need a Gallente standing up for them explaining how they aren't a fledgling nation. I could be wrong, and I am willing to be corrected if I am, but wasn't it after they had freed themselves from the Amarr that the tribes bound together to form a united nation of Matari? Their culture and and ways have been around for a long time, but as an actually united nation, I do believe that is something new for them.

You seem pretty sure about knowing all there is to know about Matari and their history and their engineering skills. You have evidence of this? I can always go ask my Sebiestor friend, see what she has to say, but I think I'd be curious to hear what a fellow Gallente has to say about another culture's history.

If I am rambling, you must excuse me, I have had a very long day, and your opinions, though valid in that you are allowed to have them and voice them, seem a little...flawed or misguided perhaps.

We travel in the dark of the new moon,

A starry highway traced on the map of the sky
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#88 - 2013-07-30 07:11:43 UTC
Steffanie Saissore wrote:
If I am rambling, you must excuse me, I have had a very long day, and your opinions, though valid in that you are allowed to have them and voice them, seem a little...flawed or misguided perhaps.


I'd add 'patronising' to that list. I know that I get irritated if someone wades in and pretends to know all about my culture and people, making grand statements about them... and we Khanid don't have a serious hangup on that sort of thing.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#89 - 2013-07-30 09:23:14 UTC
Dobie Mercault wrote:
You're a first rate **** stirrer, Ms. Akahoshi, but let's be real here just a moment. The only thing a Gallente of any kind can teach a Matari is how to be exploited, and that's a lesson they already had drilled into them once before. They hardly need a refresher course.


See, when they talk about "Ugly Matari" this is what they're talking about. What makes you so winds-blown special that you think EVERYONE wants you as slaves? Temporary, short-term, contracts. Tops.

Ms Akahoshi is rightfully concerned that the Federation's long-term ally has their back only in the sense of choosing the best place for the knife. She feels betrayed - which is one of those unpleasant side-effects of, you know, betrayal.


Dobie Mercault wrote:
They hardly need to be called a "fledgling nation" either, by what I'm sure are well-meaning Caldari observers, heh! Are these the same observers that write the history books that state the Republic once posses a level of mechanical excellence never before seen or since, or whatever the line is? Being blapped by a 1400mm round should be mandatory for any "historian" wanting to write about Matari mechanical engineering.


When you can build a decent reactor or any sort of E-War equipment worthy of the name, then come back crowing about your technological supremacy. It should be abundantly clear that the Matari never had the level of technological sophistication you claim - certainly not in a cluster with Jovians and Sleepers.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Anja Suorsa
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#90 - 2013-07-30 09:35:09 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


See, when they talk about "Ugly Matari" this is what they're talking about. What makes you so winds-blown special that you think EVERYONE wants you as slaves? Temporary, short-term, contracts. Tops


Mr Mercault, while a vociferous defender of the indefensible is not of Matari origin as far as I can tell, Miss Tuulinen. Otherwise, carry on.
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#91 - 2013-07-30 14:20:25 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Um, it's the Gallente Federation. We express concern when Quafe releases a new flavor. It's part of how we all manage (somehow) to live with one another. Expressing concerns lets you talk about them, and then work out solutions. Is it for everyone? Not in the least. But it works for us.


Except for the fact that you and the Federation don't listen to the Matari people, even though who are citizens of your Federation. You've talked about how much "power" the Matari citizens of the Federation have, yet their complaints about how the government handled the Ray of Matar situation accomplished absolutely nothing. They argued the same thing that those of us in the Republic argued, but the Federation simply ignored them and, like you, claimed that they shared the same view as non-Matari in the matter.

Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Katarina Musana wrote:
We understand your principles of cultural dilution quite fine. We simply do not live by them. We spent a long time fighting tooth and nail to hold onto our culture as the Amarr attempted through force to stamp it out. We are in no way ready to give them up simply because you ask us to. You don't even bother to ask us nicely. You simply tell us our culture is insignificant, that your culture is more important and more "enlightened" than ours.


I think you're confusing us with the Amarr here...



Not at all, the Amarr's principles are cultural annihilation, actively destroying a people's original culture and replacing it with their own.

The Federation, on the other hand, pretends to accept a culture, then proceeds to ignore it until their own dilutes it into irrelevance.

Steffanie Saissore wrote:
What caused these people to just pack up and leave the Republic in the first place? To me it sounds things were pretty bad for them if they felt they had to leave.


To borrow a phrase from my not-desert-born cousins, "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence." Things have indeed been rough for much of the Republic since its inception. We're a damaged people trying to recover and rebuild after what the Amarr did to us. This is to be expected.

Meanwhile, the Federation puts on a grand show with their promises of prosperity, "freedom," and "cultural diversity." I honestly can't fault anyone the desire to buy into that. I mean, the Federation talks it up so well, they even believe it themselves.

Steffanie Saissore wrote:
If, say for reasons, a large population from the Federation had moved into your territory, would you have allowed them to keep completely to their own ways or would you have asked that they at least observe some of the basic principles and laws of your Republic?


I can say with a fairly high degree of certainty that we would require them to adapt at least partially to our ways.

The difference, here, is that we do not proclaim unlimited cultural diversity and freedom, beyond what diversity is found between the Tribes.
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#92 - 2013-07-30 14:48:57 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
I dunno, they seem to be integrating pretty well, actually.

There are about as many Matari-identifying Gallente in the Federation as there are Matari in the Republic. In general, they have a better standard of living than Matari in the Republic. They have access to better education.


Oh, there are no doubt benefits to living in the Federation rather than in a Republic that is newly formed and attempting to rebuild after the devastation brought by the Amarr. And there are probably many who are getting by well enough in their day-to-day lives, which is why we don't see a mass exodus back into Republic space.

However, that is not indicative of "integrating pretty well." That is indicative of the underlying problem having not fully surfaced yet. The article I linked is a good example of it, a situation where Matari culture and ways directly conflicted with how the Federation does things, in a scenario where the Matari couldn't just blatantly ignore what the Federation wanted and continue to do things their way anyway.

This comes on top of things like the Federation trying to encourage us to abandon the voluval ritual and even our other tribal tattoos, though this does speak somewhat to what Pieter Tuulinen was saying, as the cultural dilution goes both ways, as seen by how many Gallenteans now bear tribal-style tattoos of their own.

Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
What I would be worried about, if I were Sanmatar Shakor, is the number of Federation Matari who are wholesale being handed reasons to be angry with the Republic.


Amusing you say this after commenting on a "lack" of news reports about Matari discontent with the Federation, seeing as there seem to be even fewer such reports about Matari citizens of the Federation being concerned/angry about the behavior of the Republic. In fact, the news article either way regarding the entire Ray of Matar/Broteau situation shows the Matari citizens of the Federation being angry with the Federation and not the Republic.

Quote:
And no, Matari citizens of the Federation expressing concern isn't a problem. On the contrary, it's part of the solution.


I would agree if the Federation showed any precedence of actually listening to its people. After all, you keep saying that our people in the Federation comprise powerful voting blocks, which based on previous statements means they possess quite a lot of influence on the decisions of the Federation's government, yet the Federation continued to deny extradition and refuse to hand out information despite the Matari citizens of the Federation calling for it just as much as the Republic called for it. Precedence shows the Federation has no interest in listening to the concerns of their Matari citizens.

And I must question how well integrated into your society our people are when your own people will act out in violence against, as you put it, "Matari-identifying Gallente" simply for being Matari, as evidenced both by Broteau's own actions and the response of many ethnic-Gallente after Colelie. Violence Against Minmatar Immigrants Reported in Federation Oh, but those "Matari-Identifying Gallente" are Gallente. Gallente would never blame their fellow Gallente for the Republic's actions, right? So much for the Gallente's supposed blindness to racial origin.

Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:
tl;dr: We're special.


Says someone from an Empire that believes themselves to be the Chosen of "God."

Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
'Course I think he's pretty much dead wrong, but that's just me...


You'd do well to listen to him, i think. While a tad crude, he has a wisdom you seem to lack.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2013-07-30 15:04:39 UTC
You know, Musana, I don't think there's any purpose in you and I continuing this debate. Feel free to consider yourself to have won it. Congratulations.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2013-07-30 15:07:23 UTC
Steffanie Saissore wrote:
What side of the bed did you wake up on?


I think he's probably just finished that literature class - you know the one I'm talking about - and now he's got his sophomore philosophy hat on.

Interesting that the ones who agree with him are Republicans, though, hmmm?

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#95 - 2013-07-30 15:12:21 UTC
Steffanie Saissore wrote:
You say the only thing we can teach the Matari is how to be exploited? Really? I see that we've provided for them and given the opportunities they didn't have before. Hardly exploitation, but then again, the jaded ignorance of youth would see that as exploiting a people.


How about providing all this help, then expecting us to do whatever you say and abide by all your decisions because "[the Federation] has given you so much help!"

Quote:
The Minmatar are a proud and strong people, I'm sure they don't need a Gallente standing up for them explaining how they aren't a fledgling nation. I could be wrong, and I am willing to be corrected if I am, but wasn't it after they had freed themselves from the Amarr that the tribes bound together to form a united nation of Matari? Their culture and and ways have been around for a long time, but as an actually united nation, I do believe that is something new for them.


Not at all, hon. Before the Amarr showed up, we were a united Minmatar Empire. We had colonized several star systems. We had a rather significant degree of technological advancement and had experienced a couple thousand years of our tribes united in peace.

Quote:
You seem pretty sure about knowing all there is to know about Matari and their history and their engineering skills. You have evidence of this? I can always go ask my Sebiestor friend, see what she has to say, but I think I'd be curious to hear what a fellow Gallente has to say about another culture's history.


Since he has not responded yet, Here you go.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Ms Akahoshi is rightfully concerned that the Federation's long-term ally has their back only in the sense of choosing the best place for the knife.


While I agree that she has cause to be wary, I do think it's rather obvious that she is overreacting, considering that she calls for the complete dissolution of the alliance over a single incident that resulted in part from the Federation's own insistence on repeatedly antagonizing their own ally.

Quote:
It should be abundantly clear that the Matari never had the level of technological sophistication you claim - certainly not in a cluster with Jovians and Sleepers.


I am inclined to agree that the previous descriptor of our past technological advancement seems a tad exaggerated in lieu of the presence of the Jovians and Sleepers, I believe the implication is that those two entities are excluded from the comparison, and thus it is meant to state that our technology was beyond that of anything (aside from recent adaptation of Jove and Sleeper technology, perhaps) in use by the Caldari State, Gallente Federation, or Amarr Empire, at least at the time that the article which uses that wording was written.

The article I linked is more conservative in its statement of our previous level of technology with the statement "possessed great engineering skill."
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#96 - 2013-07-30 16:03:30 UTC
Don't waste your time, Kat. This isn't a discussion thread, it's an exercise in mental "self-satisfaction" and Matari bashing. The way to win is simply not to play when the game is rigged against you.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#97 - 2013-07-30 16:32:55 UTC
Anja Suorsa wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


See, when they talk about "Ugly Matari" this is what they're talking about. What makes you so winds-blown special that you think EVERYONE wants you as slaves? Temporary, short-term, contracts. Tops


Mr Mercault, while a vociferous defender of the indefensible is not of Matari origin as far as I can tell, Miss Tuulinen. Otherwise, carry on.


You find this so funny because of how often you get mistaken for being a man, don' t you, kirjuun?

I assumed Msr Mercault was ethnic Matari from within the Federation, given his views.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#98 - 2013-07-30 16:42:29 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Ms Akahoshi is rightfully concerned that the Federation's long-term ally has their back only in the sense of choosing the best place for the knife.


While I agree that she has cause to be wary, I do think it's rather obvious that she is overreacting, considering that she calls for the complete dissolution of the alliance over a single incident that resulted in part from the Federation's own insistence on repeatedly antagonizing their own ally.


Shakor has shown that he either doesn't have control over the military forces within the Republic or that he's quite fine with the idea of dreadnought diplomacy. Can you imagine the furore if the Empire decided to send a bunch of Dreadnoughts into State space to try and force us to do something? Can you imagine the CEP having anything to do with them after this?

I think you really underestimate the impact of that day.


Katarina Musana wrote:

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It should be abundantly clear that the Matari never had the level of technological sophistication you claim - certainly not in a cluster with Jovians and Sleepers.


I am inclined to agree that the previous descriptor of our past technological advancement seems a tad exaggerated in lieu of the presence of the Jovians and Sleepers, I believe the implication is that those two entities are excluded from the comparison, and thus it is meant to state that our technology was beyond that of anything (aside from recent adaptation of Jove and Sleeper technology, perhaps) in use by the Caldari State, Gallente Federation, or Amarr Empire, at least at the time that the article which uses that wording was written.

The article I linked is more conservative in its statement of our previous level of technology with the statement "possessed great engineering skill."


I think what you're doing is falling into the trap of seeing sophistication in certain threads of engineering and theory as a general superiority in all fields. Don't get me wrong, I know how skilled Matari engineers can be, but I think the article in question infers that in certain disciplines the Matari had reached levels that still are not exceeded today. Still a very proud boast.

I hope that people who know me know that I don't "hate the Minmatar" because nothing could be further from the truth - but there's a danger in historical revisionism and it seems to me that the Minmatar are particularly unadept in realpolitik already. The last thing they need is MORE reasons not to make peace - especially Shakor and his faction.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Steffanie Saissore
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#99 - 2013-07-30 16:56:08 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Don't waste your time, Kat. This isn't a discussion thread, it's an exercise in mental "self-satisfaction" and Matari bashing. The way to win is simply not to play when the game is rigged against you.


If I have come across as bashing the Matari, then I apologize as that was not my intent. What I am looking for is to try to understand, but I do have to admit that some of the arguments and statements put forth have me scratching my head as there appears to be contradictions and inconsistencies in some of the statements being made.

However, as it appears that we seem to have reached the point where it has gone from discussion to "No, I'm right and you're wrong", I am withdrawing from the conversation. I think that there is still hope for the Republic and the Federation, but then again, I have also been accused of being overtly optimistic and naive.

We travel in the dark of the new moon,

A starry highway traced on the map of the sky
Anja Suorsa
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#100 - 2013-07-30 17:22:33 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


You find this so funny because of how often you get mistaken for being a man, don' t you, kirjuun?

I assumed Msr Mercault was ethnic Matari from within the Federation, given his views.


Oh, ho ho! He has bite! Alas, if I were to ever stray from the corner where I dwell, I daresay people would not mistake me for such. That you have been mistaken publicly for a woman is, however, delicious on so many levels, suuolo. I can list them, if you like.

Blink