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GM's.... We need new ones!

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Bluegeneral
Risk Breakers
SONS of BANE
#1 - 2011-11-08 11:30:56 UTC
I'm just wondering, does anyone else agree with the fact that we need new GM's? Not once have I ever had a petition that I have put in, resolved in my favor by a GM. Not only that, but its weeks before I even get a response. Yes the GM's are more than happy to tell you no, give you some link to some rule, that sometimes has nothing to do with the issue that you are referring to. Then simply copy/paste pre-written scripts that all basically say, "I am sorry, I don't care, Not going to help you" In most other MMO's the GM's at least help sometimes. And most other GM's at least seem like they care about your issues. GM's here are impersonal and just don't care! We are the customers for this great game! I would like to hear from other players on their experiences from GM's most everyone I have talked to have negative opinions of them. And most agree, they just don't care.... Pilots of New Eden, we must unite and demand better customer service from a company that has liaisons that just paste scripts into windows and don't even want to help us! The whole point of a GM team should be fairness and willingness to help players. Lets hear your thoughts pilots and see if your opinion of the GM team is as low as mine?
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#2 - 2011-11-08 11:58:39 UTC
I think it's just you, because I've had several favorable replies from the GM team, including the replacement of a flight of Ogre II's that ended up being "left" in a mission site due to a server crash.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Stahlregen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2011-11-08 12:09:20 UTC
Key steps to getting petitions resolved quickly and hopefully in your favor.

1; Don't petition stuff that totally isn't against the rules/gonna get replaced.

Yes, We understand that you're torn up because you lost your ship because you're bad at the game or don't understand the mechanics. No, it's not getting replaced.

2; Don't be all uppity and insulting in your petition, they just gonna ignore it for a week before c/p the shittiest form response they can find and then laugh at your subsequent rage posts and demands to have it escalated.

3; Argue your case. Seriously, use supporting evidence, precedent and examples- offer proof if you can get it. Screenshots, video whatever. This part can either be incredibly easy or next to impossible due to the fact that a lot of GM's are drooling morons with little understand of the game. (Hilarious I know, but it's true.) This means that it's either going to be easy to convince them with your argument or impossible as they are too stupid to grasp the points you're making.

So while petitioning is totally hit or miss depending on which GM you get there are certainly steps you can take in order to maximise your chances of a good resolution.

EVERY MORNING I WAKE UP AND OPEN PALM SLAM A VHS INTO THE SLOT. IT'S CHRONICLES OF RIDDICK AND RIGHT THEN AND THERE I START DOING THE MOVES ALONGSIDE THE MAIN CHARACTER, RIDDICK. I DO EVERY MOVE AND I DO EVERY MOVE HARD. MAKIN' WHOOSHING SOUNDS WHEN I SLAM DOWN SOME NECRO BASTARDS. NOT MANY CAN SAY THEY ESCAPED THE GALAXY'S MOST DANGEROUS PRISON. I CAN.
TrollFace TrololMcFluf
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2011-11-08 16:55:22 UTC
No we dont need new ones we need COMPETENT ones that can read english and actually do there jobs by knowing the mechanics of eve which 95% of them dont know anything and will just give you the same old answer of "the logs show nothing"
Bluegeneral
Risk Breakers
SONS of BANE
#5 - 2011-11-08 19:01:39 UTC
Stahlregen wrote:
Key steps to getting petitions resolved quickly and hopefully in your favor.

1; Don't petition stuff that totally isn't against the rules/gonna get replaced.

Yes, We understand that you're torn up because you lost your ship because you're bad at the game or don't understand the mechanics. No, it's not getting replaced.

2; Don't be all uppity and insulting in your petition, they just gonna ignore it for a week before c/p the shittiest form response they can find and then laugh at your subsequent rage posts and demands to have it escalated.

3; Argue your case. Seriously, use supporting evidence, precedent and examples- offer proof if you can get it. Screenshots, video whatever. This part can either be incredibly easy or next to impossible due to the fact that a lot of GM's are drooling morons with little understand of the game. (Hilarious I know, but it's true.) This means that it's either going to be easy to convince them with your argument or impossible as they are too stupid to grasp the points you're making.

So while petitioning is totally hit or miss depending on which GM you get there are certainly steps you can take in order to maximise your chances of a good resolution.



1. I agree, I have never petitioned something as trivial as a ship loss, I don't lose expensive ships, and I don't care about the ships I do lose... I can get another. If its a bil or under that can be made back in a week or so...

2. Not really uppity, These GM's are just idiots who seem like they don't pllay EVE....

3. No matter what valid points I have argued most GM's just don't care, or understand. And I totally think a cactus sitting at a computer in the middle of the dessert has a higher IQ than most of these GM's. We need some Competent GM's playing... People who actually play the game not just some high sec carebear who mined their whole career and got the job, or some guy that was a GM on another game....

As for your final point... As I said... I haven't really talked to anyone that has a good opinion of GM's in EVE So back to my point... More customer service, less idiocy.... And they should have some experience playing the game as a player, not just a forum troll or those useless volunteer guys who chat all day in 'Rookie Chat' WTB a real GM!
Bluegeneral
Risk Breakers
SONS of BANE
#6 - 2011-11-08 19:04:36 UTC
Jack Carrigan wrote:
I think it's just you, because I've had several favorable replies from the GM team, including the replacement of a flight of Ogre II's that ended up being "left" in a mission site due to a server crash.



And OMG so happy that you got your Ogre II's back... That is so awesome.... I'm talking about real petitions.... Not interested in some carebear who lost his drones on a mission and QQ'd about it....
Cynthia Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2011-11-08 19:38:22 UTC
Forgive me if I'm wrong. . .
But I thought you were supposed to be petitioning things like
-not being able to join a fleet. i.e. the game always returns that you have refused the request/are already in a fleet when you aren't.
-unable to purchase from the market. for whatever reason the games says "you cannot purchase that" maybe it doesn't see that you're docked, or it thinks you're 57 jumps away.
-unable to join chat channels. the game says that your chat queue is full or w/e. when in reality you may only have 1 chat window open.

these are the kinds of things that I though you were supposed to petition.
but if you are crying to the GMs (yeah there's no apostrophe, it's plural not possessive) about losing stuff the you are probably not going to get it back. face it, you lost it, that's your own fault.

what ARE you petitioning about that you think it should even matter whether or not the GMs play the game?
they are supposed to make sure the game is running correctly, and you losing your stuff means that it IS running correctly.

/me gets off her soapbox.

Post with your lick™
Junior Frog
Doomheim
#8 - 2011-11-08 19:56:23 UTC
I do not agree. My last 4 interactions with "regular" GMs and "senior" GMs went very well, even though in one case I didn't get what I wanted. However, they were quick to escalate it when I asked and the senior GM explained the central issue with my request. Ever since about 2 or 3 months ago, they seem to have begun to coordinating their responses more effectively than in the past. Some of my corpmates and I even ran a test by submitting petitions under a variety of characters and accounts to see if we were getting the same response. We did. As long as they keep working hard to coordinate their responses, I'm happy.

Jump
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-11-08 20:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Vertisce Soritenshi
I do agree that the GM's are sometimes rather blunt and ignorant to many issues. My best example is before Maze was changed. I warped in a Tengu to one of the rooms. This was when the rooms with 12 jump gates were all organized in a perfect circle. My Tengu dropped warp dead center of this clusterfuck of jump gates. I got stuck. No matter what I did I could not get out. Needless to say I was killed by the rats and lost my ship. Petitioned this and was told that there was "nothing in the logs" pretty much meaning "sucks to be you". What pisses me off the most about this is not only did I lose my Tengu, skill points, expensive mods and my dignity but they ******* changed Maze a week later to separate the gates out! WTF CCP!

All I ask of our GM's is to have some ******* common sense and don't think we are idiots and going to miss the obvious.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#10 - 2011-11-08 21:45:48 UTC
The GMs have been quite helpful to me. The only complaint I have is that they don't always make it easy to find when they make rules changes, which resulted in me getting warned for something I thought was legal because the rule change was buried in a forum thread.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-11-08 22:04:32 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
I do agree that the GM's are sometimes rather blunt and ignorant to many issues. My best example is before Maze was changed. I warped in a Tengu to one of the rooms. This was when the rooms with 12 jump gates were all organized in a perfect circle. My Tengu dropped warp dead center of this clusterfuck of jump gates. I got stuck. No matter what I did I could not get out. Needless to say I was killed by the rats and lost my ship. Petitioned this and was told that there was "nothing in the logs" pretty much meaning "sucks to be you". What pisses me off the most about this is not only did I lose my Tengu, skill points, expensive mods and my dignity but they ******* changed Maze a week later to separate the gates out! WTF CCP!

All I ask of our GM's is to have some ******* common sense and don't think we are idiots and going to miss the obvious.


Or the dreaded "invisible" agression counter that everyone knows is there and half of them get taken cared of the other half given the "diplomatic" finger.

So yeah.

But in all honesty...the GM's attitude is likely based on the fact 75 to 80% of the stuff they see is just utter tripe.

And the legitimate cases are overshadowed as a result.

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Lucius Arcturus
Peoples Capitalist Liberation Front
#12 - 2011-11-09 08:27:02 UTC
They've always been pretty helpful and speedy on my petitions, although I rarely petition, and usually only for a loss because of an unscheduled server drop. You say that petitions aren't resolved in your favor - how do we know that you're not just petitioning completely unreasonable requests? Although I do agree that it shouldn't take weeks to get a response.

CAPLF WH Sales

Capitalization in EVE Online
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2011-11-10 03:08:34 UTC
I haven't made that many petitions but the ones I did do were answered fairly quickly.

Some of them weren't in my favour but they did explain why they made the decision they did and did provide links to back this up. Whilst not the answer I wanted, I can't complain about the service I received.

I don't think this thread is really fair tbh as we don't know what your petitions were about and could all just be trivial things which would lead to a negative response.

Also, don't they come down hard on anything that discusses moderation?
Bluegeneral
Risk Breakers
SONS of BANE
#14 - 2011-11-10 06:51:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Bluegeneral
Smiling Menace wrote:
I haven't made that many petitions but the ones I did do were answered fairly quickly.

Some of them weren't in my favour but they did explain why they made the decision they did and did provide links to back this up. Whilst not the answer I wanted, I can't complain about the service I received.

I don't think this thread is really fair tbh as we don't know what your petitions were about and could all just be trivial things which would lead to a negative response.

Also, don't they come down hard on anything that discusses moderation?



I wouldn't petition anything trivial. Sorry I'm not the carebear who is QQ'd about losing some Ogre II's... Not going to discuss any of my petitions, but they are very few and far in-between and none are trivial. Maby I am just getting some bad GM's but the current petition has been waiting 11 days now for a solution and no answer as of yet.... I would just like some service.... And from what I can tell, some think the GM's are idiots, and some think they are ok, but I'm not hearing anyone say "OMG Great Customer Service! Best GM Expierence ever!" I mean common... Shouldn't that be what they are striving toward?


Edit: And none of my petitions have been about ship losses....
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2011-11-10 15:01:52 UTC
Bluegeneral wrote:
Jack Carrigan wrote:
I think it's just you, because I've had several favorable replies from the GM team, including the replacement of a flight of Ogre II's that ended up being "left" in a mission site due to a server crash.



And OMG so happy that you got your Ogre II's back... That is so awesome.... I'm talking about real petitions.... Not interested in some carebear who lost his drones on a mission and QQ'd about it....


If you talk like that to the GMs it's no wonder they treat you like ****. You're an *******. Stop being surprised when people treat you like one.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
GM Panzer
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
#16 - 2011-11-10 18:02:47 UTC  |  Edited by: GM Panzer
While I'm very happy to see that many of you speak kindly of us GMs and the support we provide, I can also understand many of the concerns raised in this thread. In regards to those, I want to add a few points to the discussion:

First of all, we actually do have a mixture of new and older GMs working in Customer Support. Even if the employee turnaround within Customer Support is relatively low (as most of us love to work on EVE and for CCPSmile), there are always some GMs being recruited into other departments of the company and some that leave due to some other reasons. Those are replaced by fresh blood, which are very often EVE veterans and/or former ISD members that have performed well as such. That being said, of course we also need to look at many other skills to determine whether someone is well suited for customer support, such as good language skills and communication strengths. The guy who knows everything about EVE will not necessarily make the best GM Blink This we know from experience.

Regarding our response times, we do our best to keep them down as possible, but of course this can vary on the petition category, the current load of incoming petitions at any given time and the issue at hand. But just to give you an idea of what you can usually expect, here are some average first response time numbers for our main petition categories.


All petition categories:

  • Last 12 months = 32 hours and 31 minutes
  • Last month = 16 hours and 31 minutes

Stuck petition categories:

  • Last 12 months = 1 hour and 4 minutes
  • Last month = 41 minutes

Billing & Account petition categories:

  • Last 12 months = 22 hours and 6 minutes
  • Last month = 12 hours and 6 minutes

Technical Support categories:

  • Last 12 months =32 hours
  • Last month = 11 hours and 52 minutes


Of course these are only averages and some petitions may need to wait for longer. Also these are only first response numbers and there may be more delay in between replies when petitions drag on/are escalated etc.

On reimbursement of losses in EVE, I'm not sure what to say as you have probably heard it all before. The fact remains that EVE is a very, very competitive game and in some aspects on the brink of what is technically possible, so our task is not always that easy. Of course we know that players lose ships and items to bugs and server issues, but we can simply not apply some kind of blanket "The customer is always right" method of deciding when to reimburse and when not to. We believe this would ruin the experience for everyone in the long run and thus we try to set clear policies that are equally fair to everyone (and equally unfair in some cases) and stick to them. Usually this means server log verification is required aka our logs show nothing Twisted

That being said, we will always keep working with the Dev teams on improving those logs/tools so that we have the verification needed in more cases and getting the bugs we are frequently exposed to through petitions fixed (with the current focus on EVE within the company, good things are happening in this area). Furthermore, we can keep working on finding the right balance between "canned responses" and manually typing up long personal and poetic replies to every petition with detailed explanations of everything and nothing, that would in turn slow the whole service down for everyone.

Finally, remember that if you are not happy with how your petition is handled, you can always request that a second opinion is given by another GM and/or a Senior GM.

And finally (again) ...use the rating tool to rate different aspects of our services after a petition is closed. It really helps us focus on where to improve and tells us how we are doing overall (overall rating for last year was 7.7 of 10 based on 63.731 rated petitions. Not all that bad but can of course be improved).

Winter is coming,
Lead GM Panzer
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2011-11-10 21:21:21 UTC
Thanks for taking the time, Panzer.
Atedar Kerane
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2011-11-11 08:36:14 UTC
TrollFace TrololMcFluf wrote:
No we dont need new ones we need COMPETENT ones that can read english and actually do there jobs


their*
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2011-11-11 11:21:32 UTC
GM Panzer wrote:
While I'm very happy to see that many of you speak kindly of us GMs and the support we provide, I can also understand many of the concerns raised in this thread. In regards to those, I want to add a few points to the discussion:

First of all, we actually do have a mixture of new and older GMs working in Customer Support. Even if the employee turnaround within Customer Support is relatively low (as most of us love to work on EVE and for CCPSmile), there are always some GMs being recruited into other departments of the company and some that leave due to some other reasons. Those are replaced by fresh blood, which are very often EVE veterans and/or former ISD members that have performed well as such. That being said, of course we also need to look at many other skills to determine whether someone is well suited for customer support, such as good language skills and communication strengths. The guy who knows everything about EVE will not necessarily make the best GM Blink This we know from experience.

Regarding our response times, we do our best to keep them down as possible, but of course this can vary on the petition category, the current load of incoming petitions at any given time and the issue at hand. But just to give you an idea of what you can usually expect, here are some average first response time numbers for our main petition categories.


All petition categories:

  • Last 12 months = 32 hours and 31 minutes
  • Last month = 16 hours and 31 minutes

Stuck petition categories:

  • Last 12 months = 1 hour and 4 minutes
  • Last month = 41 minutes

Billing & Account petition categories:

  • Last 12 months = 22 hours and 6 minutes
  • Last month = 12 hours and 6 minutes

Technical Support categories:

  • Last 12 months =32 hours
  • Last month = 11 hours and 52 minutes


Of course these are only averages and some petitions may need to wait for longer. Also these are only first response numbers and there may be more delay in between replies when petitions drag on/are escalated etc.

On reimbursement of losses in EVE, I'm not sure what to say as you have probably heard it all before. The fact remains that EVE is a very, very competitive game and in some aspects on the brink of what is technically possible, so our task is not always that easy. Of course we know that players lose ships and items to bugs and server issues, but we can simply not apply some kind of blanket "The customer is always right" method of deciding when to reimburse and when not to. We believe this would ruin the experience for everyone in the long run and thus we try to set clear policies that are equally fair to everyone (and equally unfair in some cases) and stick to them. Usually this means server log verification is required aka our logs show nothing Twisted

That being said, we will always keep working with the Dev teams on improving those logs/tools so that we have the verification needed in more cases and getting the bugs we are frequently exposed to through petitions fixed (with the current focus on EVE within the company, good things are happening in this area). Furthermore, we can keep working on finding the right balance between "canned responses" and manually typing up long personal and poetic replies to every petition with detailed explanations of everything and nothing, that would in turn slow the whole service down for everyone.

Finally, remember that if you are not happy with how your petition is handled, you can always request that a second opinion is given by another GM and/or a Senior GM.

And finally (again) ...use the rating tool to rate different aspects of our services after a petition is closed. It really helps us focus on where to improve and tells us how we are doing overall (overall rating for last year was 7.7 of 10 based on 63.731 rated petitions. Not all that bad but can of course be improved).

Winter is coming,
Lead GM Panzer


Good reply and good information to know.

Now about my missing Ogre II's.......Lol
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#20 - 2011-11-11 12:49:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Yeah I put a billing/accounting enquiry in well over 24 hours ago... still nothing.

It's basically keeping me from playing, admittedly I caused the issue, but still taking a long time to even get an answer as to if they ARE WILLING to fix it.

Kinda blows your averages out of the water.

Edit: Although also, I think our GM's are pretty nice and decent guys. I've sat and chatted with them over questions I had a few times and got myself some decent answers to questions. Had I asked the questions on the forums the threads would've just been trolled to death.

ie. Not just a machine based automaton like GM's in WOW etc.. they have opinions and will answer if asked. Pretty cool that they will do that.

.
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