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Addressing Amarrian Loyalists
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Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#21 - 2011-11-06 19:36:19 UTC
Jason Galente wrote:
Don't do what your government tells you that God tells them is right, do what you think is right.


Obviously many people think to do what is written in the Scriptures and what God tells them is right. Why would you think it odd for people to think so? Because that seems to be the hidden assumption behind your words.

The fact that people can both accept and fall from faith should be able to tell you that it is an individual and changeable decision to do so.
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2011-11-06 21:29:10 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
Jason Galente wrote:
Don't do what your government tells you that God tells them is right, do what you think is right.


Obviously many people think to do what is written in the Scriptures and what God tells them is right. Why would you think it odd for people to think so? Because that seems to be the hidden assumption behind your words.

The fact that people can both accept and fall from faith should be able to tell you that it is an individual and changeable decision to do so.


Yes, that may be the case, but it's also an assumption to infer that all people of the Amarrian faith are individualistic in their approach. I'm sure many content themselves to just listening to anything the Theology Council says and accepting it as barebones truth. This simply is not the case, the interpretation of the Theology Council is only 1 possible interpretation of Scripture. It's important that each and every reader keeps his or her own interpretation at heart.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost
Vallek Arkonnis
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2011-11-06 22:28:17 UTC
Jason Galente wrote:
Merdaneth wrote:
Jason Galente wrote:
Don't do what your government tells you that God tells them is right, do what you think is right.


Obviously many people think to do what is written in the Scriptures and what God tells them is right. Why would you think it odd for people to think so? Because that seems to be the hidden assumption behind your words.

The fact that people can both accept and fall from faith should be able to tell you that it is an individual and changeable decision to do so.


Yes, that may be the case, but it's also an assumption to infer that all people of the Amarrian faith are individualistic in their approach. I'm sure many content themselves to just listening to anything the Theology Council says and accepting it as barebones truth. This simply is not the case, the interpretation of the Theology Council is only 1 possible interpretation of Scripture. It's important that each and every reader keeps his or her own interpretation at heart.


The Council exists so that the proper interpretation is taught and accepted. The Scriptures are God's revelation of His will to mankind, not some spiritual chicken soup. God's will is truth, and truth is objective, it is not open to opinion or personal interpretation. Only the Council and the Empress can authoritatively teach what is and is not in the Scriptures. One thinking they know better as an excuse to depart from orthodoxy is committing grievous sins of pride and heresy.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#24 - 2011-11-07 00:14:17 UTC
Vallek Arkonnis wrote:


The Council exists so that the proper interpretation is taught and accepted. The Scriptures are God's revelation of His will to mankind, not some spiritual chicken soup. God's will is truth, and truth is objective, it is not open to opinion or personal interpretation. Only the Council and the Empress can authoritatively teach what is and is not in the Scriptures. One thinking they know better as an excuse to depart from orthodoxy is committing grievous sins of pride and heresy.


I am sorry to say it but your reasoning is full of flaws and contradictions.

To begin with you say that the TC exists to teach "the proper interpretation", and then you explain that God's truth is not open to opinion or personnal interpretation... So, is it, or is it not ?

Telling that the TC's interpretation is the right one, the only one Truth embodied by God, implies that the TC is able to totally comprehend God itself, which is almost heretical in itself, leading to either consider that God is as much as flawed as humans or Amarrians, or either leading to consider that humans and Amarrians, or just the TC's members, are flawless and at the level of God Himself. And you talk about pride and heresy ?

Then, the proper interpretation is not an interpretation if it is the Truth. And again, if anyone states that he knows that perfect and absolute Truth told by God, able to comprehend everything of God while we are still struggling to learn and expand our own knowledge of God's creation, is an aberration.

The only thing on which I agree with is that the TC and the Empress are the only ones to authoritatively teach what is and is not in the Scriptures, because it is that way by Amarrian law, nothing more.
Vallek Arkonnis
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2011-11-10 05:23:19 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:


The only thing on which I agree with is that the TC and the Empress are the only ones to authoritatively teach what is and is not in the Scriptures, because it is that way by Amarrian law, nothing more.


So mere law imputes the authority to recognize and disseminate God's will? The authority to discern, and therefore teach, God's will is God given. For the Council to punish heresy it has to know orthodoxy. If the authority of the Empress is unquestionable and absolute then the source of her authority must also be unquestionable and absolute.
Graelyn
Aeternus Command Academy
#26 - 2011-11-10 07:21:13 UTC
I've asked a helpful goon to summarize the last 2 weeks of Intergalactic Summit comms traffic.

It reads a lot like this:

"Dang, Amarr, your God is, like, invisible! wut? I don't get it! HAHA!"

It's all just so incredibly clever.

Cardinal Graelyn

Amarr Loyalist of the Year - YC113
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#27 - 2011-11-10 11:24:09 UTC
Vallek Arkonnis wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:


The only thing on which I agree with is that the TC and the Empress are the only ones to authoritatively teach what is and is not in the Scriptures, because it is that way by Amarrian law, nothing more.


So mere law imputes the authority to recognize and disseminate God's will? The authority to discern, and therefore teach, God's will is God given. For the Council to punish heresy it has to know orthodoxy. If the authority of the Empress is unquestionable and absolute then the source of her authority must also be unquestionable and absolute.


This kind of reasoning is often refered to as obscurantism, you know ?
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2011-11-10 15:35:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Galente
Graelyn wrote:
I've asked a helpful goon to summarize the last 2 weeks of Intergalactic Summit comms traffic.

It reads a lot like this:

"Dang, Amarr, your God is, like, invisible! wut? I don't get it! HAHA!"

It's all just so incredibly clever.


Jason Galente wrote:
As a bit of a footnote, this isn't an accusation for those of you who happen to disagree: it's simply an assertion of my own experiences (my views of the Empire in this light are not unique, I share them regarding most established authority) and a reflection of some of the debate I've seen on the Summit lately. It's entirely possible that your conception of right and wrong are similar to those of the Empire at large, as Mr. Thessalonia suggested. I'm not an atheist, by any means: I believe God does exist, but that he exists in each of us as our idea of what is right and wrong, not just what is expedient or profitable. My use of the term 'discretion' was indicative of the cautionary nature of the thread, that one needs to listen to his conscience first, then his government. A man's conscience is his God, is his religion.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost
Graelyn
Aeternus Command Academy
#29 - 2011-11-10 16:28:55 UTC
Didn't read your own thread, did you?

Cardinal Graelyn

Amarr Loyalist of the Year - YC113
Vallek Arkonnis
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2011-11-10 16:59:29 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Vallek Arkonnis wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:


The only thing on which I agree with is that the TC and the Empress are the only ones to authoritatively teach what is and is not in the Scriptures, because it is that way by Amarrian law, nothing more.


So mere law imputes the authority to recognize and disseminate God's will? The authority to discern, and therefore teach, God's will is God given. For the Council to punish heresy it has to know orthodoxy. If the authority of the Empress is unquestionable and absolute then the source of her authority must also be unquestionable and absolute.


This kind of reasoning is often refered to as obscurantism, you know ?


It's rather simple, Miss Farel. If the Council and the Empress didn't carry with them the God-given authority to discern God's will then what they decree is nothing more than opinion. The Scriptures, orthodoxy, heresy would all be opinion; free to be accepted or rejected as one saw fit because there would be no divine authority to back them as Truth, thus the entire foundation of the Empire would unravel.

If it is true that the Empress' word is final and absolute and the Council can indeed root out heresy authoritatively, then the only logical conclusion is that their authority to do so is not imputed by man but by God.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#31 - 2011-11-10 17:58:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Vallek Arkonnis wrote:
It's rather simple, Miss Farel. If the Council and the Empress didn't carry with them the God-given authority to discern God's will then what they decree is nothing more than opinion. The Scriptures, orthodoxy, heresy would all be opinion; free to be accepted or rejected as one saw fit because there would be no divine authority to back them as Truth, thus the entire foundation of the Empire would unravel.

If it is true that the Empress' word is final and absolute and the Council can indeed root out heresy authoritatively, then the only logical conclusion is that their authority to do so is not imputed by man but by God.


I never tried to imply any negative statement on how the Empire is ruled and how work its laws. I merely agreed with you on the fact that the word of the Empress and the TC is absolute when it comes to matters of religion (even though it is a little more complicated than that in reality), this is just how the Amarrian religious doctrine works. People are then free to decide if they agree with it or not.

Now then, implying that because unperfect humans are doing a certain thing means that their source of motivation (God, which is supposed to be infinite and perfect to make it simple) wants the same thing is nothing more than misplaced pride and arrogance, and has nothing logical in itself. A implying B does not necessarily mean that B implies A. For example, thunder causes fire. Does that also means that any fire is caused by thunder ? If you only know B (here fire), you can not deduct out of it what was A (the cause), unless A is the only explanation possible (which then has to be proved).

This is not with the first part that I disagree, it is with the second one.
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