Assembly Hall

I have don it now for an extended time and the more I did ........

Changing Mining in High sec would indicate changing it from the scrap.

So why not change mining all together

Let’s take a look on the economy of the game. From the understanding of a self-sufficient player driven Economy circle the game is pillared on:

1. Mining (Ore, PI, Moon, Recycling)
2. Production
3. Market
For the sole purpose to supply in one or other way:
4. PvP

Some call a sandbox I rather call it an economic simulation placed in hostile environment. Set the notations beside let’s focus on 1 mining in the relevance of a self-sufficient player driven economy; the retrieve of raw materials. I combine here Moon mining, planetary interaction and ORE mining under the terms of RME, Raw Material Extraction. Whether this is form Moon materials, PI,or ORE Mining. I explicitly leaf out RME trough recycling (drones and modules) as it would well exceed the size of the proposal.

A brief history of ORE mining in the Game:
In 2003 it seems appropriate for a new game to adapt to the general play style of almost any MMP Games at the time with some sort of mining. The economy of EvE evolved during the last 8 Years and being more dedicated to other materials than the basic ORE mining.
To my consideration and in the progress of economical evolving the present ORE mining has become outdated and therefore obsolete.
I focus hereby strict on the cost (investment, maintenance) and reward point of view

Cost/ reward scheme:

1.Moon mining (low and 0.0.) high cost
2. PI (all) median to low cost
3.ORE mining (all) low cost

With PI you set up your factory’s and take in the profit with no risk to the installation.

With ORE mining there is just an initial expense of the exhumer and non-other than a gank.
As for PI there are possible implements on the way to rise the rist/cost factor which will give it a more realistic place within the simulation (sandbox) by private owned custom offices and a possible role in a future Dust involvement.
Leaves mining ORE as a classic RME with only some little changes ever since. However it contains no real cost factor to run a mining operation and take the profit. No fuel cost (exept the rouqual). The other factor is, ORE mining as today can be done semi Afk ore full AfK which is not in the sense of the game.
However the action of mining itself commands doing it in AfK moode or at least semi AfK. Even the godfather of Mining Halada postulated in his well lauded Mining guide: “Staring for a sustained time on the mining laser will have you end up in the psych ward.” He was seriouse on it!

Whilst two of the RME’s, Moon mining and PI are for a good reason mostly automated processes, ORE mining isn’t, but should be!
As a side effect: A bot on a Moon POS, a bot on a PI installation are obsolete and ineffective as the material retrieving processes is already automated and only need attention requirement to restart the process. Of course you can place a bot to do some steering but as for PI, the available resource amount change and therefore require player attention.

Similar could apply to ORE Mining.

A Proposal:
No more Asteroid belts in any system as known.
Player driven Mining and refining colonies

The Source:
1. ORE belts around a complete planet and not just some rocks somewhere in a system.
Once mined, the Roids re-spawn on in-calculable time and size. Some death nuts are amongst them.
2. ORE asteroids are of significantly size revealing its ORE similar to PI. I prefer 1 as better since there already is PI.

The Equipment:
A POS similar mining colony means with the profit coms the expense. The excavators are operated from the mining POS. Small medium and large determine the amount of excavators.
Yes, they can be installed on High sec planets with a significantly lower resistance than a low sec or 0.0 Mining-colony. They are simpler to set up and faster to be demounted as the regular POS, and as such more mobile.

The Calculation:
Base calculation can be the amount mined by any Human operated vessel in the belt for a max of 2 hr. I personally think this is the max time one can pay attention to it without slipping in some sort of hypnosis. AfK mining is not considered in estimation!
8.000m³ volumes could be the amount of one excavator for 24hr. as the excavator can run just like a moon harvester or a PI installation, adjustable from one to 24 hr. The Mining-colony can be upgraded to do refining jobs.
The excavators run on time by damage, just like mining cristals


New player modus.
Since mining is a source of income for new players:
Civilian Mining excavators with a loading capacity of 600m³/24hr. Ore shall be transported to Player owned Mining colonies for refining or saled dirctely on the market.

I expect the fast majority of the mining community will dismiss this proposal but again, I do believe attention should be paid to the fact any action in the game supporting AfK and watch your favored TV show in the meantime, is not what the game is design for, any action within the game obsoleting the request of direct attention is an open door for botting and thus should be left to automated processes in first place.

Assumable, big alliances will not go for this proposal just as they state unanimously they don’t have any bots running in their hidden 0.0. Systems, but it is illusive to buy into this argument, the temptation is just too big!

So, more time to actually play the game and lifting ORE mining in a more realistic market situation equal to moon mining and future PI. On a second thought may even attract to a better use of Low sec.

Increase the cost of wardecs and add some sort of scaling based on the number of pilots involved in the conflict. Hi-sec wardecs are basically economic warfare, so their costs should reflect that. The current fees are way too cheap given how fast you can make 50M ISK now with Incursions.

Break the 0.01 ISK market game in some fashion. Raise the fee to change an order or make the fee scale based on the total value of the market order.

Do away with region-wide buy orders and make the maximum range only 20 jumps at level V. More niches for the small traders to live in the margins.

Break the market hubs - maybe add higher fees for putting up market orders in the existing trade hub systems to encourage a migration to the surrounding systems.

Make the security status of the system have more meaning - such as gate/station guns podding someone who enters 1.0 space if their security status is too low, or preventing wardecs from being allowed in 1.0 systems unless you pay a premium fee for the wardec.

NGTM1R, I like your insights re: Nullsec being the "Glitzy PR Engine" but Hisec being the "retention key" ...

I disagree with you about mining being boring and repulsive however ... achieving a large and efficient mining operation with max skills is quite a satisfying accomplishment to many people ... more so than bored low skilled hooligans or highly skilled old bitters doing the "derr, warp in with our disposable noob frigates and gank that Hulk" will ever be ...

Both styles reveal much about the character of those who engage in them ... and in EVE, both are free to exist.

IMO EVE is no different from Basketball ...
Some play basketball competitively (Nullsec), and join Leagues (Nullsec Alliances).
Some play basketball with their friends, in the parking lot, just for fun (Hisec).
A competitive basketball player can come "play" in the parking lot with the amateurs, sure (old bitter gankers) ... but it's no glory achievement, and the amateurs will eventually get a clue and leave (safe dock).
The competitive players are what people watch.
The parking lot games are what most people play.

Why not keep both happy?

Assuming not using drones (they die horribly fast, and are slow) ... one can max out at 2646 m3 per minute in hisec. Using your 2 hour estimation, that's 317,520 m3. In lowsec/nullsec/w-space, you top out at 2966 m3/minute. Using your 2 hour estimation, that's 355, 920 m3.


Your numbers are FAR too low, even when comparing to 2 hour segments. Limiting yourself to 2 hour segments is also flawed, as there are some people who, given the inclination, will mine for a full day for whatever reason.


actually, it is exceptionally useful in station-less systems. I've been known to throw up a tower in a system for a few hours when mining, though generally like to keep it around for the entire weekend.

I think that is a seriously excellent idea, which actually would not only benefit high-sec, but null aswell.

I would love to see every belt purely full of Veldspar or Scordite, Ore scanners would, instead of scanning a whole belt, scan a single roid and tell you its contents. Then as Ronan says, you would have to "mine through" the low-end ores to get to the high-end ones.

I think not only would this be more interesting, but also add a complication that makes botting a fraction more difficult (I'm not stupid enough to think that something like this would stop bots.)

On top of Ronans suggestions, I would like to suggest that the number of belts in all systems in eve are halved entirely, and the removed half become non-static hidden belts. This could even result in a minor chance someone would consider mining in low-sec if they weren't sitting in a static belt.

wait, what?

You just went from "solo walled gardens should be OK" to "I like playing with other people"...

1. When you're building ships, it's not "solo" (you took the minerals, moon, and/or station factory slots I could have used)
2. When you're inventing BPC, it's not "solo" (you took the moon and/or the station lab slots I could have used)
3. When you're extracting PI goods, it's not "solo" (you took the materials I could have used). DUST514 will just add an "it can be destroyed by others" element to PI.
4. When you're ship spinning, it's solo (though soon to be fixed if that counter on Sisi is any indication )

Sure, it's not that big of a deal in hisec that you took "my" lab slot for 2 hours or a manufacturing slot for a day ... well, between the two of us anyway.

Now, let's expand that to what "could" happen because you tied up the manufacturing slot I was going to use (also, assume the winter expansion is out).

• I get delayed in making 10 Tornadoes by 12 hours (or whatever).
• Some group of former w-space residents found a new entry to their former wormhole, but it's close to the expiry (4 hours or less, whatever is low enough to get the "it's nearly collapsed" description).
• They can't get 10 Tornadoes, because they're not on a close enough market yet (at least 10+ jumps out). Well, they could TRY to get them, but there's no guarentee they can get back in time.
• The "invaders" choose to use other BCs ('canes, myrmidons, whatever) because they can't get enough BS through the wormhole...
• The "invaders" are able to cause damage to the POS of the guys that kicked them out, and maybe even end up having a full-blown fleet engagement .. BUT they can't RF the tower, because they don't have the DPS.
• So, they get kicked out (again) by the "new" owners.

OBVIOUSLY this is just an example (and has flaws...), and we all know that there will be TONS of Tornadoes and the other Tier3 BCs out within hours of DT lifting ... but I think it shows pretty effectively how even little things such as a few hours delay on producing a ship can have an effect on many people's gameplay...

It seems logical that a lot of the null seccers are more experienced players who like the chairman of csm6 have not paid for a subscription with cash for a long time, CCP would go from a dynamic player controlled/ based micro-transactional economy to a micro profit making company rapidly. At the very least it would hamper their ability to maintain development.

As a person who enjoys this game i want to see it flourish and not wither on the vine just because a contingent of whiny afraid to undock alone players want their sandbox frozen in time an only get game improvements that increase their already huge advantage over other players.

i don't live in high sec .... you should have asked first .... and yes hive players are afraid to undock alone ..... know your own history it's easy to research .... hive players are the ones who were not smart enough to fis without getting sploded all the time so they swarm together so they can achieve a safety in numbers.

Like any group of rl gang members they are basically gutless. IMO

Zim i feel it only fair that i disclose that i am not a child or a college age young adult who is regurgitating stuff they have only read about without real world experience. I have been an employee of a large corp as well as starting & running my own business/ LLC in real life. I am a 100% capitalist but not without a moral compass. Now that my employees do the work i have time to play online games and dabble in other enjoyable distractions with my time when no disasters require my direct intervention while i am here at the office.

I can tell you most business models are MORE profitable when they have a clean connection between their product and it's consumers. Middlemen and volume discounts reduce that maximum profit potential in measurable ways. Why anyone would argue that is not an easily provable fact is just amazing.

Since the exact figures are CCP's confidential data we can fairly only discuss business models in these forums. The models i use are pretty difficult to ignore by anyone really trying to have an exchange of ideas.

If you have access to facts that make my models inaccurate in regard to how CCP financials are actually being distributed/ collected please share them and i will update my comments to reflect your input. Absent that my model stands waiting for a better one to replace it.