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Some newb questions from a new trader...
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Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-07-28 14:14:18 UTC
Ok, so how risky would it be to buy up all the faction missiles in a hub and then relist them for like 30% more?

Does anybody do this kind of stuff?
Guywood Threepbrush
Motsu Mission Monkeys
#2 - 2013-07-28 17:06:28 UTC
my guess would be very risky?

I would assume there are enough manufacturers to compensate for you buying up the entire market.

Unless you can somehow control or predict the suppliers reliably I wouldn't attempt it.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-07-28 18:45:39 UTC
Guywood Threepbrush wrote:
my guess would be very risky?

I would assume there are enough manufacturers to compensate for you buying up the entire market.

Unless you can somehow control or predict the suppliers reliably I wouldn't attempt it.


Yes but why would a supplier put his price at anything that is less than .01 of you?

They are trying to make a profit aswell.
Wafflehead
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-07-28 18:52:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Wafflehead
It can be very risky. You are planning to relist at 30%, what happens when the original orders come back at the buy price?.

You'll have alot of stock selling for less than what you paid for.

I've seen ALOT of people totally mess the profit margins on some items just for fun. (eg. Buy order from 3.2M to 8M) where as they could have just upped it by a small amount.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-07-28 19:19:55 UTC
Thats strange, I guess some people are just idiots then? not wanting to take advantage of a profitable situation.
Tonsof Gun
Dirty Rats
#6 - 2013-07-28 19:52:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tonsof Gun
It's a common tactic to buy up all the stock of an item and relist for higher than you paid, but you have to be careful in the item you select and the % increase you put on the price.

Savvy buyers will notice when this strategy has been applied and will simply not buy until the price has levelled out again, and other sellers will list items around your sale price to start with but will drive them down quickly by undercutting heavier than they would normally. If they're selling for 1 mil p/u less than you they appear to be selling cheaply to the untrained eye, whereas in fact they are still selling for more than usual. Get 3-4 people doing this and the price soon returns to normal, meaning if you haven't moved everything you bought you may end up out of pocket.

If you adopt this method then you should choose items that are not easily manufactured/obtained, so fresh stock doesn't reach the market quickly, an item which doesn't sell vast quantities daily (other people will be holding stocks), and make sure you have a good chunk of time to babysit your orders right after you make the buyout.

[u].[/u]
Wafflehead
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-07-28 23:23:46 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Thats strange, I guess some people are just idiots then? not wanting to take advantage of a profitable situation.


Indeed so!. Just happened on another item. Was buying at 4.8M (Selling at 12M) now its at buy 8M and still sell rate.

People are idiots they think that other traders wont match their price, but we do and they have ruined the good profit then.
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#8 - 2013-07-29 00:04:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan Toralen
Wafflehead wrote:
Indeed so!. Just happened on another item. Was buying at 4.8M (Selling at 12M) now its at buy 8M and still sell rate.

People are idiots they think that other traders wont match their price, but we do and they have ruined the good profit then.


And what item was that? There are legitimate reasons to up the buy order price. For instance say a t1 rig buy order price is way below material value then you not gonna get many at that price. Up the price so that manufacturers can make some profit, that for others hauling to your station becomes profitable, that people can sell their stock to you that they've sit on for too long etc. and the trade volume will go up a lot.

Ther's more to trading then looking at difference between buy and sell orders. If you want to make money you need to know your items, have a grasp on what their value is regarding materials and manufacturing, where they come from, who uses it and for what etc. This applies to sell orders aswell. Big profit margin isn't worth much when you sit on your overpriced stock forever. It's essentialy death capital for the time being. It's more profitable in the long run to make small profits in quick succesion and steadily then to make a slightly bigger profit only once in a blue moon while playing silly 0.01 games with equaly greedy traders.
Zero Sum Gain
FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOM
#9 - 2013-07-29 00:24:24 UTC
I think the biggest factor in pulling this off will be where you try it. The busier the hub the more likely another trader or supplier will be around. But too obscure a market and you'll never move the goods.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#10 - 2013-07-29 04:53:34 UTC
Market resets can be profitable, but you need to pick the exact right item.

Pro tip: Any item that can be transported in bulk from other trade hubs is not the exact right item. Neither is any item that players are sitting on enormous stockpiles of (in this case, loyalty points as that's basically what faction ammo is).

More viable is performing a market reset on a highly demanded meta 4 item. Once I heard about the FYF fleet doctrine being used in the TEST/Goons lovers' spat, I made some ISK out of meta 4 sensor damps pushing them from 1300k to 2400k in Sinq Laison.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Ruvin
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2013-07-29 21:59:59 UTC
The people arent idiots ... The price is supply/demand (made simple) if a item has a certain price at its not already manipulated that's its price . Even if you succed sooner or later it will tend to adjust itself back .

If building a item cost 100 , people sell it for 110 , and youl force em to buy it for 130 , sooner or later the 110 will take over you .

As for second part of being idiot , ruining the profit is a strategy aswell with many conseqences . Forcing compettition out , making it unprofitable .
If youre loosing X , the other person aint loosing X . or its still X but different .

1% of youre profits may be 0.1% of his profits . So youre loosing 10X . And therefore against you he is "wining" ?


People are way to quick to be rude and start act BIG , but dont be to quick about it , patience is a great virtue aswell .

Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
49473
Jita Trade and Research Institute
#12 - 2013-07-31 10:35:34 UTC
In order to manipulate the market in such a way you would have to be a larger market participant.

To your question, this is done very frequently with a range of items, and will occur more and more in the future.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#13 - 2013-07-31 11:04:53 UTC
Tonsof Gun wrote:
It's a common tactic to buy up all the stock of an item and relist for higher than you paid, but you have to be careful in the item you select and the % increase you put on the price.

Savvy buyers will notice when this strategy has been applied and will simply not buy until the price has levelled out again, and other sellers will list items around your sale price to start with but will drive them down quickly by undercutting heavier than they would normally. If they're selling for 1 mil p/u less than you they appear to be selling cheaply to the untrained eye, whereas in fact they are still selling for more than usual. Get 3-4 people doing this and the price soon returns to normal, meaning if you haven't moved everything you bought you may end up out of pocket.

If you adopt this method then you should choose items that are not easily manufactured/obtained, so fresh stock doesn't reach the market quickly, an item which doesn't sell vast quantities daily (other people will be holding stocks), and make sure you have a good chunk of time to babysit your orders right after you make the buyout.

This.
If I see someone mass buying stock and relisting in the way you mentioned, I know its only a short term spike and I don't want to be fighting 0.01 changes for days, so I'll undercut by huge margins, but still selling at higher than normal but only using a partial batch:
Example: normal price, 100, you relist for 200, ill undercut at 140.
I'll then watch and keep undercutting by say 10-20 until my sale price is the norm. Part of this is to bring the price back down quicker, the other part is to cause you to buy my stock at the inflated price to continue relisting. Then once other sellers have got on board trying to take advantage, I'll flood the market with the bulk of my stock at my usual markup, causing you to have to sell at way below your purchase price. The reason for this is most traders want stable profit margins, so someone coming along to destabilise that is a bad thing. It's the fun part of a PvP market.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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Felicity Love
Doomheim
#14 - 2013-07-31 12:12:58 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Ok, so how risky would it be to buy up all the faction missiles in a hub and then relist them for like 30% more?

Does anybody do this kind of stuff?



Do it by buying all the T2 drones first... everyone loves that. Blink

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Careby
#15 - 2013-07-31 12:15:33 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Ok, so how risky would it be to buy up all the faction missiles in a hub and then relist them for like 30% more?

Does anybody do this kind of stuff?


When choosing an item to trade, it may be prudent to consider where the item comes from. In the case of empire faction missiles, the answer is mainly from LP stores. Players with lots of FW LP are always looking for the best ISK return on their LP. If you raise the price of faction missiles, they will buy more missiles with their LP and dump them on the market for ISK. This will limit your ability to move the market long term. Not to say you can't make some ISK on a short term play.
Porkita
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-07-31 12:26:18 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Guywood Threepbrush wrote:
my guess would be very risky?

I would assume there are enough manufacturers to compensate for you buying up the entire market.

Unless you can somehow control or predict the suppliers reliably I wouldn't attempt it.


Yes but why would a supplier put his price at anything that is less than .01 of you?

They are trying to make a profit aswell.


Just so you buy them out too quickly and they throw another batch quickly... so you buy these too and they can throw another batch and...

... well, some people just have the short profit in eyes. Does that make sense?

There is no need to move stuff, because now you can push it!
Steirmann
Interstellar Machines
#17 - 2013-07-31 12:52:30 UTC
Felicity Love wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Ok, so how risky would it be to buy up all the faction missiles in a hub and then relist them for like 30% more?

Does anybody do this kind of stuff?



Do it by buying all the T2 drones first... everyone loves that. Blink


Especially T2 drone manufacturers, who can put a new batch on the market in under two days.
Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-08-01 14:39:33 UTC
Trying to corner a market over which you do not control the supply is a bad idea.

What will happen is that the people you buy the missiles from will notice the uptick in buying activity and make more.

Its like the Jay Leno Doritoes commercial: ... Buy all you like! We'll make more!