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[Proposal] high sec suicide sec hits

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Hello GoodSir
Infinity Research
#1 - 2013-07-27 23:47:49 UTC
There seem to be alot of highsec ganking going on with really low sp characters in catalysts or other crap ships.
To rebalance this CCP should rethink how sec hits work for piracy.
ie. if a freighter is killed then the aggressors should take a hit equivilant to the ships size classification. freighters and BS would result in high sec hits whereas frigates would be the lowest. They could even modify the amount based on the security of the system as well 0.5 would be different from 1.0.

It just doesnt seem right that a few catalysts costing 5m can easily down a freighter or T3 or BS in highsec without sever consequences. Losing 50m worth of catalysts is easily offset by suiciding anything of slight value.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2013-07-28 01:08:57 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Hello GoodSir wrote:
There seem to be alot of highsec ganking going on with really low sp characters in catalysts or other crap ships.
To rebalance this CCP should rethink how sec hits work for piracy.
ie. if a freighter is killed then the aggressors should take a hit equivilant to the ships size classification. freighters and BS would result in high sec hits whereas frigates would be the lowest. They could even modify the amount based on the security of the system as well 0.5 would be different from 1.0.

This wouldn't change anything. Most of us who suicide gank are already have -10 security status (or close to)... which is the lowest you can go.

Hello GoodSir wrote:
It just doesnt seem right that a few catalysts costing 5m can easily down a freighter or T3 or BS in highsec without sever consequences. Losing 50m worth of catalysts is easily offset by suiciding anything of slight value.

Why not? I know real life examples are bad and all but...

A 200,000 dollar shoulder-fired missile has the capacity to blow up a multi-million dollar helicopter or plane.


As far as consequences are concerned; players who suicide gank...

- already take a security status penalty (which is quite large when the security status of the victim is high).
- lose their ship (100% guaranteed loss that ship insurance doesn't cover).
- are not guaranteed getting loot... or the loot they want at least (~50/50 odds that a weapon, module, or cargo item will drop)
- have to organize and plan to take out anything beefier than an untanked hauler or mining barge (no small feat... the term "herding cats" applies here).
- will have to deal with the faction police harassing them if their security status goes below -5.0... which means that they can't really fly anything bigger than a cruiser or so without the risk of getting scrammed, webbed, and blown up by said faction police.
- will have to deal with the added threat of other players if their security status goes below -5.0... as you can be shot at by anyone and everyone without penalty anywhere in the game for as long as you stay below -5.0


And why SHOULDN'T a lot of organized cheaper ships be able to nuke a larger, more expensive ship?

How did you Veterans start?
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-07-28 03:01:20 UTC
Hello GoodSir wrote:
It just doesnt seem right that a few catalysts costing 5m can easily down a freighter or T3 or BS in highsec without sever consequences. Losing 50m worth of catalysts is easily offset by suiciding anything of slight value.

not sure if 10 catalysts can suicide gank a t3 or bs but i do know they cant take down a freighter as that req's several bs's. you might want to research a bit more next time you make a proposal.
JOKEY ST0NER SMURF
Vrix Nation
#4 - 2013-07-28 06:37:26 UTC
Omega Flames wrote:
Hello GoodSir wrote:
It just doesnt seem right that a few catalysts costing 5m can easily down a freighter or T3 or BS in highsec without sever consequences. Losing 50m worth of catalysts is easily offset by suiciding anything of slight value.

not sure if 10 catalysts can suicide gank a t3 or bs but i do know they cant take down a freighter as that req's several bs's. you might want to research a bit more next time you make a proposal.



they have downed freighters with destroyers, yust alot of them ;o wich still means its cheap but needs a bigger group to doit
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#5 - 2013-07-28 08:45:00 UTC
JOKEY ST0NER SMURF wrote:
Omega Flames wrote:
Hello GoodSir wrote:
It just doesnt seem right that a few catalysts costing 5m can easily down a freighter or T3 or BS in highsec without sever consequences. Losing 50m worth of catalysts is easily offset by suiciding anything of slight value.

not sure if 10 catalysts can suicide gank a t3 or bs but i do know they cant take down a freighter as that req's several bs's. you might want to research a bit more next time you make a proposal.



they have downed freighters with destroyers, yust alot of them ;o wich still means its cheap but needs a bigger group to doit

To gank a freighter it takes (with max skills)...

- about ~95+ pure gank-fit Catalysts (that are entirely Meta 0 fit) to down a freighter in ~3 volleys...
- ~85 if you overload with the same fit...
- ~60 if overloaded AND Tech 2 fitted (which also raises the total cost to about 600+ million compared to the 200 mil needed using just Tech 1 fits).

Again... scrounging up and organizing that many people is no small feat. And less desirable too as you'll have to split up all the loot between all those people.

How did you Veterans start?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#6 - 2013-07-28 12:25:02 UTC
Hello GoodSir wrote:
There seem to be alot of highsec ganking going on with really low sp characters in catalysts or other crap ships.
To rebalance this CCP should rethink how sec hits work for piracy.
ie. if a freighter is killed then the aggressors should take a hit equivilant to the ships size classification. freighters and BS would result in high sec hits whereas frigates would be the lowest. They could even modify the amount based on the security of the system as well 0.5 would be different from 1.0.

It just doesnt seem right that a few catalysts costing 5m can easily down a freighter or T3 or BS in highsec without sever consequences. Losing 50m worth of catalysts is easily offset by suiciding anything of slight value.
Maybe if you had an idea of the mechanics at work here, you could be better informed.

Please tell us just how many gank fit catalysts, you can put together for 50 mil. Then let us know what you could suicide gank with them.

Asking for arbitrary changes to sec hits, with little to no knowledge of the game, is asking for trouble.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Kyon Rheyne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2013-07-28 13:11:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyon Rheyne
ShahFluffers wrote:

Why not? I know real life examples are bad and all but...



A 200,000 dollar shoulder-fired missile has the capacity to blow up a multi-million dollar helicopter or plane.


And how often IRL that happens in "hisec" areas, like in Washington or London? How easly one can pull such a thing, and if it's not that easy to pull, than for what reason? IRL world we have a whole layer of national security constantly working behind the scenes, and of course, by background story, we have it in EVE universe too. But in fact it manifests itself only after the trigger has been pulled. Yea, the eve uni is much more turbulent and wild, but that've already gone too far. I have no problem with ganking someone with valuable posessions, with not so cheap suicide ship involved, that somehow reflect the need to make some efforts and spend funds to prepare and commit such atrocity in high secure area. So, to somehow balance this we need such level of concord's reaction time and dps, that will call for proportionate fund investment from suicide ganker.
And there are one other head of this hydra - because it not so costly of a trade, it allows for SG for fun, when ur just kill anyone you like/don't like, without any real profit. And combine this with unprecendent ease of aquiring another fully functional (not a trial!) alt in eve for the moment..


ShahFluffers wrote:

As far as consequences are concerned; players who suicide gank...

- already take a security status penalty (which is quite large when the security status of the victim is high).
- lose their ship (100% guaranteed loss that ship insurance doesn't cover).
- are not guaranteed getting loot... or the loot they want at least (~50/50 odds that a weapon, module, or cargo item will drop)
- have to organize and plan to take out anything beefier than an untanked hauler or mining barge (no small feat... the term "herding cats" applies here).
- will have to deal with the faction police harassing them if their security status goes below -5.0... which means that they can't really fly anything bigger than a cruiser or so without the risk of getting scrammed, webbed, and blown up by said faction police.
- will have to deal with the added threat of other players if their security status goes below -5.0... as you can be shot at by anyone and everyone without penalty anywhere in the game for as long as you stay below -5.0


And why SHOULDN'T a lot of organized cheaper ships be able to nuke a larger, more expensive ship?


- they don't really care and can switch alts from time to time.
- as the topicstarter has already wrote, they lose cheap vessel and blow up very expensive
- still they will profit in the long term, and low cost of commiting such atrocities make possible for do them for sheer fun
- that's not so big of a deal, and they get profit from it, anyway
- not so big deal, start another alt/buy another character
- not really, in highsec u won't find so much pvp-hungry and brave enough players, and most of them have other things to do than to attack scary outlaw, most will fear this is a trap.

ShahFluffers wrote:

And why SHOULDN'T a lot of organized cheaper ships be able to nuke a larger, more expensive ship?


Because, if we speak in terms of EVE IS REAL, most of them would have been preemptivly stopped by national security and police, and turned into examples why someone shouldn't mess with The Service. And because if, IRL, we had an outrage with intense increasing of murders and property damaging in higly civilized urban areas, these services would reacted quickly and came in arms to stabilize situation and get the city block or even whole city under control. And that dinamic reaction of law enforcment agencies is completely absent from EVE too. So to compare it with IRL's state of affairs as it is is basically wrong. EVE consists of huge pile of abstractions and artificial, far-fetched restrictions, added to the game just to balance things which ccp can't/doesnt want to simulate properly. And this particular aspect isn't well balanced currently.
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-07-28 14:00:00 UTC
if your so afraid of losing a frieghter then why not fly an orca? a properly fit orca gets much more tank than a frieghter and so is much harder to kill and is cheaper than freighters.
Hello GoodSir
Infinity Research
#9 - 2013-07-30 00:28:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Hello GoodSir
Mag's wrote:
Hello GoodSir wrote:
There seem to be alot of highsec ganking going on with really low sp characters in catalysts or other crap ships.
To rebalance this CCP should rethink how sec hits work for piracy.
ie. if a freighter is killed then the aggressors should take a hit equivilant to the ships size classification. freighters and BS would result in high sec hits whereas frigates would be the lowest. They could even modify the amount based on the security of the system as well 0.5 would be different from 1.0.

It just doesnt seem right that a few catalysts costing 5m can easily down a freighter or T3 or BS in highsec without sever consequences. Losing 50m worth of catalysts is easily offset by suiciding anything of slight value.
Maybe if you had an idea of the mechanics at work here, you could be better informed.

Please tell us just how many gank fit catalysts, you can put together for 50 mil. Then let us know what you could suicide gank with them.

Asking for arbitrary changes to sec hits, with little to no knowledge of the game, is asking for trouble.


No need to flame just look at eve kill. Getting past the 5 man talos gank and the 10 man brutix ganks you find 6 mails on the first page of 5+b kills done by catalysts.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18950020
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18901518
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18873653
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18862265
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18858267
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18858268


PS. a catalyst has 850dps as per eve fit.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#10 - 2013-07-30 10:27:21 UTC
Hello GoodSir wrote:
There seem to be alot of highsec ganking going on with really low sp characters in catalysts or other crap ships.
To rebalance this CCP should rethink how sec hits work for piracy.
ie. if a freighter is killed then the aggressors should take a hit equivilant to the ships size classification. freighters and BS would result in high sec hits whereas frigates would be the lowest. They could even modify the amount based on the security of the system as well 0.5 would be different from 1.0.

It just doesnt seem right that a few catalysts costing 5m can easily down a freighter or T3 or BS in highsec without sever consequences. Losing 50m worth of catalysts is easily offset by suiciding anything of slight value.


it costs a lot more than "50M" to down a freighter.

Hint: those catalysts need things like guns and damage mods

It's a fundamental mistake to try and balance things on hull cost alone. For instance, Velators are free; to "balance" a freighter against the cost of ganking with noobships, you'd need to give freighters infinite EHP.

The paradox is resolved by including the factor of player effort. Yes, 20 catalysts can kill a freighter. That's absolutely fine, because 20 catalysts can kill just about anything - you can easily kill a carrier with that much DPS for instance.

tl;dr: No.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Mag's
Azn Empire
#11 - 2013-07-30 11:24:38 UTC
Hello GoodSir wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Hello GoodSir wrote:
There seem to be alot of highsec ganking going on with really low sp characters in catalysts or other crap ships.
To rebalance this CCP should rethink how sec hits work for piracy.
ie. if a freighter is killed then the aggressors should take a hit equivilant to the ships size classification. freighters and BS would result in high sec hits whereas frigates would be the lowest. They could even modify the amount based on the security of the system as well 0.5 would be different from 1.0.

It just doesnt seem right that a few catalysts costing 5m can easily down a freighter or T3 or BS in highsec without sever consequences. Losing 50m worth of catalysts is easily offset by suiciding anything of slight value.
Maybe if you had an idea of the mechanics at work here, you could be better informed.

Please tell us just how many gank fit catalysts, you can put together for 50 mil. Then let us know what you could suicide gank with them.

Asking for arbitrary changes to sec hits, with little to no knowledge of the game, is asking for trouble.


No need to flame just look at eve kill. Getting past the 5 man talos gank and the 10 man brutix ganks you find 6 mails on the first page of 5+b kills done by catalysts.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18950020
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18901518
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18873653
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18862265
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18858267
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18858268


PS. a catalyst has 850dps as per eve fit.
The one link you gave which was even remotely Catalyst only, was this one. But at only 16,033 damage, it's obviously a follow on hit after a failed first attempt. One of which we have no idea of the ships involved.

Although a good attempt at side tracking it doesn't answer the tasks I put to you, based on your 50 million limit.

So I'll ask again.
Please tell us just how many gank fit catalysts, you can put together for 50 mil. Then let us know what you could suicide gank with them.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#12 - 2013-07-30 12:07:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Hello GoodSir wrote:
There seem to be alot of highsec ganking going on with really low sp characters in catalysts or other crap ships.
Not really, no. The only thing that there's a lot of is people whining about it because of what a shock it is.

Also, even there were a lot of them, so what? It's not like the size of the ships used is in any way relevant.

Quote:
It just doesnt seem right that a few catalysts costing 5m can easily down a freighter or T3 or BS in highsec without sever consequences. Losing 50m worth of catalysts is easily offset by suiciding anything of slight value.
There are severe consequenes, and the value of the ships involved is utterly and completely irrelevant. If anything, being able to kill expensive ships with cheap ships means that the game is properly balanced.

Quote:
PS. a catalyst has 850dps as per eve fit.
Please provide and price-check said fit. By the way, in none of the links you provided seemed did the cats seem to have more than (at best, being very generious) 700 DPS — most seemed to have had 400-500.
Alona Gene
Doomheim
#13 - 2013-07-30 16:54:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Alona Gene
ShahFluffers wrote:
Hello GoodSir wrote:
There seem to be alot of highsec ganking going on with really low sp characters in catalysts or other crap ships.
To rebalance this CCP should rethink how sec hits work for piracy.
ie. if a freighter is killed then the aggressors should take a hit equivilant to the ships size classification. freighters and BS would result in high sec hits whereas frigates would be the lowest. They could even modify the amount based on the security of the system as well 0.5 would be different from 1.0.

This wouldn't change anything. Most of us who suicide gank are already have -10 security status (or close to)... which is the lowest you can go.

Hello GoodSir wrote:
It just doesnt seem right that a few catalysts costing 5m can easily down a freighter or T3 or BS in highsec without sever consequences. Losing 50m worth of catalysts is easily offset by suiciding anything of slight value.

Why not? I know real life examples are bad and all but...

A 200,000 dollar shoulder-fired missile has the capacity to blow up a multi-million dollar helicopter or plane.


As far as consequences are concerned; players who suicide gank...

- already take a security status penalty (which is quite large when the security status of the victim is high).
- lose their ship (100% guaranteed loss that ship insurance doesn't cover).
- are not guaranteed getting loot... or the loot they want at least (~50/50 odds that a weapon, module, or cargo item will drop)
- have to organize and plan to take out anything beefier than an untanked hauler or mining barge (no small feat... the term "herding cats" applies here).
- will have to deal with the faction police harassing them if their security status goes below -5.0... which means that they can't really fly anything bigger than a cruiser or so without the risk of getting scrammed, webbed, and blown up by said faction police.
- will have to deal with the added threat of other players if their security status goes below -5.0... as you can be shot at by anyone and everyone without penalty anywhere in the game for as long as you stay below -5.0


And why SHOULDN'T a lot of organized cheaper ships be able to nuke a larger, more expensive ship?



Real life examples are bad.
if you ram your car into my car intentionally, you will not receive insurance.

There is a very simple way to fix this.
if concord is involved in killing you, YOU get no insurance pay out.

if you really still want to nuke me, go for it. But it will cost you the whole amount, as it should.
Hello GoodSir
Infinity Research
#14 - 2013-07-30 23:27:03 UTC
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18901518
12 catalysts appr. 144,000 damage done to freeighter with brutix doing 16,000. That is definitely 1 run. That brutix did about 15% more damage than the next catalyst.
Each catalyst cost at max 11m. that would be around 150m lost for a kill. Kill something with 500m cargo and get 200+ , you they profit 5m per person appr., not counting whether they scoop their own loot.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#15 - 2013-07-31 01:07:41 UTC
Hello GoodSir wrote:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18901518
12 catalysts appr. 144,000 damage done to freeighter with brutix doing 16,000. That is definitely 1 run. That brutix did about 15% more damage than the next catalyst.
Each catalyst cost at max 11m. that would be around 150m lost for a kill. Kill something with 500m cargo and get 200+ , you they profit 5m per person appr., not counting whether they scoop their own loot.
Keep trying. You've still not found a KM, to match your magical 50 million cost using Catalysts only.

Also could you please show us proof, of the 11 million max cost per catalyst you mention that's involved in that KM?
Thank you kindly.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#16 - 2013-07-31 11:26:52 UTC
Highsec ganking is at an all time LOW.

I really dislike people like the OP - no matter how many buffs they get, they still scream and cry for more.

Sad.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#17 - 2013-07-31 11:30:49 UTC
Also, the price is irrelevant.

The entire idea that your ship should be immune to a ship that costs less (or TWENTY of them) is just pants on head idiotic.

Just biomass yourself, OP. You don't understand this game.
Hello GoodSir
Infinity Research
#18 - 2013-08-01 00:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Hello GoodSir
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Also, the price is irrelevant.

The entire idea that your ship should be immune to a ship that costs less (or TWENTY of them) is just pants on head idiotic.

Just biomass yourself, OP. You don't understand this game.


This arguement is so dated. Defending high sec ganking based on PvP Eve logic makes no sense as High Sec ganking has nothing to do with actual PvP. High sec ganking is science done by spreadsheets and cheap tactics.
An invulnerable bump ship.
A handful of trash ships that meet a spreadsheet requirement to kill a ship with a set unchangeable HP. (yes skills can change it but the gankers just calculate that).
There is no skill and barely any effort; PvP logic doesn't apply.

If you want to pop a frigate with plex theres nothing wrong with that in eve. The problems with high sec ganking are mostly centered around freighters.

Catalyst = 1.2m
Light Neutron II x 8 (866k) = 6.928m
Magnetic field stab II x3 (894k) = 2.682m
1MN MIcro Warp Drive x1 (80k) = 80K
Antimatter Navy (20 per gun =160) = 80k

10,970,000
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#19 - 2013-08-01 01:22:57 UTC
Alona Gene wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Hello GoodSir wrote:
There seem to be alot of highsec ganking going on with really low sp characters in catalysts or other crap ships.
To rebalance this CCP should rethink how sec hits work for piracy.
ie. if a freighter is killed then the aggressors should take a hit equivilant to the ships size classification. freighters and BS would result in high sec hits whereas frigates would be the lowest. They could even modify the amount based on the security of the system as well 0.5 would be different from 1.0.

This wouldn't change anything. Most of us who suicide gank are already have -10 security status (or close to)... which is the lowest you can go.

Hello GoodSir wrote:
It just doesnt seem right that a few catalysts costing 5m can easily down a freighter or T3 or BS in highsec without sever consequences. Losing 50m worth of catalysts is easily offset by suiciding anything of slight value.

Why not? I know real life examples are bad and all but...

A 200,000 dollar shoulder-fired missile has the capacity to blow up a multi-million dollar helicopter or plane.


As far as consequences are concerned; players who suicide gank...

- already take a security status penalty (which is quite large when the security status of the victim is high).
- lose their ship (100% guaranteed loss that ship insurance doesn't cover).
- are not guaranteed getting loot... or the loot they want at least (~50/50 odds that a weapon, module, or cargo item will drop)
- have to organize and plan to take out anything beefier than an untanked hauler or mining barge (no small feat... the term "herding cats" applies here).
- will have to deal with the faction police harassing them if their security status goes below -5.0... which means that they can't really fly anything bigger than a cruiser or so without the risk of getting scrammed, webbed, and blown up by said faction police.
- will have to deal with the added threat of other players if their security status goes below -5.0... as you can be shot at by anyone and everyone without penalty anywhere in the game for as long as you stay below -5.0


And why SHOULDN'T a lot of organized cheaper ships be able to nuke a larger, more expensive ship?



Real life examples are bad.
if you ram your car into my car intentionally, you will not receive insurance.

There is a very simple way to fix this.
if concord is involved in killing you, YOU get no insurance pay out.

if you really still want to nuke me, go for it. But it will cost you the whole amount, as it should.

If you read what I wrote, I mentioned that it already does. You get no insurance for suicide ganking and loot is not guaranteed.

How did you Veterans start?
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#20 - 2013-08-01 07:48:09 UTC
Hello GoodSir wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Also, the price is irrelevant.

The entire idea that your ship should be immune to a ship that costs less (or TWENTY of them) is just pants on head idiotic.

Just biomass yourself, OP. You don't understand this game.


This arguement is so dated. Defending high sec ganking based on PvP Eve logic makes no sense as High Sec ganking has nothing to do with actual PvP. High sec ganking is science done by spreadsheets and cheap tactics.
An invulnerable bump ship.
A handful of trash ships that meet a spreadsheet requirement to kill a ship with a set unchangeable HP. (yes skills can change it but the gankers just calculate that).
There is no skill and barely any effort; PvP logic doesn't apply.

If you want to pop a frigate with plex theres nothing wrong with that in eve. The problems with high sec ganking are mostly centered around freighters.

Catalyst = 1.2m
Light Neutron II x 8 (866k) = 6.928m
Magnetic field stab II x3 (894k) = 2.682m
1MN MIcro Warp Drive x1 (80k) = 80K
Antimatter Navy (20 per gun =160) = 80k

10,970,000


I'm afraid you're not making any sense. Suicide ganking is still PVP, whether you like it or not.

And there is still the astoundingly stupid idea that the price tag of your ship should make it immune from ten or twenty other ships just because of the price. I cannot begin to understand the flawed mind that would come up with that logic.
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