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ECM: OP or not, it does not belong.

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Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#141 - 2013-07-28 08:56:12 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:


Obviously you don't know who DHB wildcat is.

Anyways the problems with ECM:

Does it ruin small scale PvP? Yes.

Does it create an un-fun enviroment? Yes.

Is it elegant? Yes in simplicity , in function? No it ******* sucks.

Does it fit in with the rest of the game mechanics? Not really, its too random.

Is it overpowered? Irrelevant to our point.

ECM has nothing going for it. The only people that support it are ones that don't know better, haven't experienced enough of it, or simply can't win without it.

ECM causes people to lose ships without a fight, I honestly don't see how you think that is a good thing.


I have no idea who DHB wildcat is, should I know? Have I just been introduced to a z-list celebrity from some obscure TV channel I don't know. Other than that the rest of your post is merely opinion and opinions without facts or reasoned arguments are worthless.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#142 - 2013-07-28 09:18:02 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
ECM has nothing going for it. The only people that support it are ones that don't know better, haven't experienced enough of it, or simply can't win without it.

ECM causes people to lose ships without a fight, I honestly don't see how you think that is a good thing.
I don't support this; I've been on both ends, I don't use jammers unless I'm on a jam ship which is hardly ever, and if you're going to say I don't know better you're just sidestepping any sort of discourse.

Jammers give a chance that someone can't do anything briefly, damps ensure it. That's not a good point against them.

And if 'some noob' can show up and keep you out of a fight, guess what, he can do that. He's also in a paper thin ship and probably only managed one jam, so have someone kill him or let your drones do it.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#143 - 2013-07-28 09:41:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:


I have no idea who DHB wildcat is, should I know? Have I just been introduced to a z-list celebrity from some obscure TV channel I don't know. Other than that the rest of your post is merely opinion and opinions without facts or reasoned arguments are worthless.


You asked proof that experienced PvPers agree with me. I pointed one out. Not my problem you don't know who he is. Go google his name or something. Infact, go google who the oldest and best PvPers are, then go ask them yourself what they think about ECM.

And stop hiding behind an alt, post with your main.

HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
ECM has nothing going for it. The only people that support it are ones that don't know better, haven't experienced enough of it, or simply can't win without it.

ECM causes people to lose ships without a fight, I honestly don't see how you think that is a good thing.
I don't support this; I've been on both ends, I don't use jammers unless I'm on a jam ship which is hardly ever, and if you're going to say I don't know better you're just sidestepping any sort of discourse.

Jammers give a chance that someone can't do anything briefly, damps ensure it. That's not a good point against them.

And if 'some noob' can show up and keep you out of a fight, guess what, he can do that. He's also in a paper thin ship and probably only managed one jam, so have someone kill him or let your drones do it.


"Paper thin ship", "can't do anything briefly" and "probably only managed one jam"? Your attempt to belittle ECMs effectiveness is painfully obvious.

20 seconds of not doing anything is not "briefly", and ontop of that in that 20 seconds you have a chance of getting jammed again so it's even longer. Just one jam can ruin a small scale engagement. I honestly think you have not experienced it.

Ecm ships can fit tank in the low slots and frankly it is plenty. You aren't hugging the enemy, you sit far away. Their drones can't reach you. If anything threatens you, you either just jam it or leave before it gets too close.

And like I said, one jam is enough to ruin a fight.

Edit: Out of the 17 losses you've had, not a single one has an ECM ship in it. And you claim to have been on both sides? Heck, you've not even flown an ECM ship, yet alone die to one. This is why I say only the inexperienced argue for ECM.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#144 - 2013-07-28 10:15:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
ECM is no more effective than damped or TD'd to death. In no scenario can you meaningfully fight back - flee or die is the same option everywhere - confirmation bias makes you feel ECM is somehow 'worse' - I suppose the other systems afford you the illusion of fighting back - but it's futile.

Please stop pretending its some god like I-WIN button because its not.

Your complaint about the entire mechanic is valid - moaning about it being massively overpowered is simply untrue and detracts from the value of the thread.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#145 - 2013-07-28 10:22:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
ECM is no more effective than damped or TD'd to death. In no scenario can you meaningfully fight back - flee or die is the same option everywhere - confirmation bias makes you feel ECM is somehow 'worse'

Please stop pretending its some god like I-WIN button because its not.

Your complaint about the entire mechanic is valid - moaning about it being massively overpowered is simply untrue and detracts from the value of the thread.


Stfu, I never moaned about how OP it is. I know damps are very strong and might even be better than ECM, but their mechanics are fine and are less bullshit annoying than ECM is.

TDs don't effect missiles, neuts, webs, scrams, your own ewar, the attack command to drones, and you can still use your guns to a degree if you pilot correctly.

Damps do not make you unable to do anything, you just have to be closer.

ECM turns everything listed above off. How is that not more effective? When an ECM jam happens, it is the best ewar.
Whitehound
#146 - 2013-07-28 10:22:51 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Simply put, we want a mechanic overhaul for ECM.

No, we do not want it.

You lost a Stabber to two Falcons. Sure, it sucks, but all losses suck. You learn from it and you seem to be doing just fine. Roll with a bigger gang or keep avoiding ECM ships.

With all the nerfs to ECM we already had are now sensor dampeners becoming the FoTM. You will run into the same problem as before and I do not want to see the game changed just so you can make the same mistake twice before you realize you were wrong all along.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#147 - 2013-07-28 10:26:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
See, now you're just posting emotional rants.


Just get closer vs a damp? Then just get further away from ECM
TD does affect missiles? ECM does affect FoF either.

Your 'solutions' are just as ridiculous as mine.


Keep the complaint to chance based issues around a binary effect and away from emotional rants about its percieved power in game, is my humble advice.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#148 - 2013-07-28 10:28:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Gallifreyan
Whitehound wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Simply put, we want a mechanic overhaul for ECM.

No, we do not want it.

You lost a Stabber to two Falcons. Sure, it sucks, but all losses suck. You learn from it and you seem to be doing just fine. Roll with a bigger gang or keep avoiding ECM ships.

With all the nerfs to ECM we already had are now sensor dampeners becoming the FoTM. You will run into the same problem as before and I do not want to see the game changed just so you can make the same mistake twice before you realize you were wrong all along.


Keep mentioning a loss I don't even care about, why do you insist that this thread is all because of said loss? Do you think you are some kind of Freud that understands everybody's ideas and motivations? Roll *

"Avoid ECM or blob more" Yeah great suggestions.

And personally. I don't care what the FOTM is. I see a broken mechanic and its about time CCP fixes it.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#149 - 2013-07-28 10:32:45 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Edit: Out of the 17 losses you've had, not a single one has an ECM ship in it. And you claim to have been on both sides? Heck, you've not even flown an ECM ship, yet alone die to one. This is why I say only the inexperienced argue for ECM.
Shockingly, I may not want to show my main on the forums.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#150 - 2013-07-28 10:34:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Edit: Out of the 17 losses you've had, not a single one has an ECM ship in it. And you claim to have been on both sides? Heck, you've not even flown an ECM ship, yet alone die to one. This is why I say only the inexperienced argue for ECM.
Shockingly, I may not want to show my main on the forums.


Yeah right. What are you afraid of? Somebody seeing what you say and wardeccing you? Maybe its because your "main" has just as bad kb as your "alt", so you don't want to be made fun of. That is the only thing that makes sense.


Morrigan LeSante wrote:
See, now you're just posting emotional rants.


Just get closer vs a damp? Then just get further away from ECM
TD does affect missiles? ECM does affect FoF either.

Your 'solutions' are just as ridiculous as mine.


Keep the complaint to chance based issues around a binary effect and away from emotional rants about its power in game, is my humble advice.


That is no emotional rant you are clueless.

When there is a frigate tackling your ship and you get ECM'd, you are basically dead in the water. When you get sensor damped you atleast have the option of killing the ships tackling or brawling you. Not everybody flies kiting long range ships that sit 20kms away from you. This is a very common occurrence. Go fly a brawling ship and tell me how damps really ruin your day, hint: They don't.

ECM causes ships to die without a fight, but damps give a chance. And the only reason damps are OP is because of their stacking and stats. Which can easily be adjusted (and probably will, soon). The way ECM works in general is annoying and unthoughtful.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#151 - 2013-07-28 10:43:28 UTC  |  Edited by: HiddenPorpoise
Diesel47 wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
See, now you're just posting emotional rants.

When there is a frigate tackling your ship and you get ECM'd, you are basically dead in the water. When you get sensor damped you atleast have the option of killing the ships tackling or brawling you. Not everybody flies kiting long range ships that sit 20kms away from you. This is a very common occurrence.
If you've ever fought a keres you'd understand how wrong that is. On top of that damp ships don't open with range, they open with res. That freakish, endless, and evil 20 sec jam you're talking about is nothing compared to taking a cruiser's res down to 27. After that, if you're still alive lock range is at 8% and if you can lock from disruptor range at that point you're too big to hit a frig anyway.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#152 - 2013-07-28 10:57:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
See, now you're just posting emotional rants.

When there is a frigate tackling your ship and you get ECM'd, you are basically dead in the water. When you get sensor damped you atleast have the option of killing the ships tackling or brawling you. Not everybody flies kiting long range ships that sit 20kms away from you. This is a very common occurrence.
If you've ever fought a keres you'd understand how wrong that is. On top of that damp ships don't open with range, they open with res. That freakish, endless, and evil 20 sec jam you're talking about is nothing compared to taking a cruiser's res down to 40. After that, if you're still alive lock range is at 8% and if you can lock from disruptor range at that point you're too big to hit a frig anyway.


A few things. Having a sensor booster in your fit is much much better than having an ECCM. Because even if you don't encounter damps, the sebo will still work for you. ECCM? No, just a waste.

Secondly, you don't even need to lock to 20kms to brawl, do you know what brawling is? Usually it involves webs, scrams, and really short range guns. All of these operate in less than 10kms. Lock Range damps will have NO effect on you.

And say for a second that you are flying a ship that locks out to 20kms and you get damped. Too big to hit a frig? What if you have a heavy neut? Or you tell your drones to engage said frig? Just because you are in something big doesn't mean the frig is immune to your damage. You can still shoot it and get some hits. What if it isn't a frig? Atleast you can still shoot it, or activate some modules on it. This is much better situation than ECM. You can still give a fight without having to just sit and watch your ship die.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#153 - 2013-07-28 11:08:54 UTC  |  Edited by: HiddenPorpoise
If 8% of your maximum lock(What happens when a damp ship decides to hate you) is greater than disruptor range (that needs a base targeting range over 200km for the record) you are clearly in something that can't hit a frigate. And at that point nothing is going to stay in your lock range long enough to actually lock.

You seem have trouble with the idea that damps can keep ships from locking and therefore fighting.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#154 - 2013-07-28 11:09:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Not emotional?

Terms like 'clueless', 'stfu' are not the tools of impassive debate.


It's apparent from your recent posts you take issue with ECMs effectiveness and little to do with the mechanic (random, binary, unpredictable) as originally stated.

And if you think it's overpowered that's fine - you're entitled to your opinion but rants about are best placed in an appropriate thread - not the one discussin the inherent issues with the mechanics.



And for what it's worth, just about every strawman defense against heavy damps you can manage and equivalent ECM one can be produced - it's silly, stop being that guy and debate the randomness of the mechanics, the fitting of the hulls and how to address removing the randomness but keeping approximately the same use of the mods and the boats.
Justin Parmala
Doomheim
#155 - 2013-07-28 11:09:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Parmala
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Remember it's not possible to look at ECM without also looking at the ships - right now ECM birds NEED to stack mods up so hard, they can afford almost no tank whatsoever. That needs considered alongside any potential ECM change - that they need so many mods to be remotely consistent/threatening.
.


Lol, you can fit tank to ECM ships and still jam ships.

I would agree that you are clueless because of posts like this.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#156 - 2013-07-28 11:12:01 UTC
Then the jams are VERY unreliable and I don't think there's any debate about how fast they die after a couple of missed jams.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#157 - 2013-07-28 11:16:58 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
If 8% of your maximum lock(What happens when a damp ship decides to hate you) is greater than disruptor range (that needs a base targeting range over 200km for the record) you are clearly in something that can't hit a frigate. And at that point nothing is going to stay in your lock range long enough to actually lock.

You seem have trouble with the idea that damps can keep ships from locking and therefore fighting.


Take a rokh and put a sebo on it and a squad leader with a little bit of leadership and you get 198km lock range. Raven is around 165km, so is a naga. etc.

Also: Do you even know what a brawling is bro?
Justin Parmala
Doomheim
#158 - 2013-07-28 11:21:03 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Then the jams are VERY unreliable and I don't think there's any debate about how fast they die after a couple of missed jams.


No lol, fitting a single 1600mm plate gives you like 10k more EHP and reduces your jam on a specific module from 9.9 str to 9.4 .

What are u even saying hahaha.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#159 - 2013-07-28 11:22:59 UTC
Justin Parmala wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Then the jams are VERY unreliable and I don't think there's any debate about how fast they die after a couple of missed jams.


No lol, fitting a single 1600mm plate gives you like 10k more EHP and reduces your jam on a specific module from 9.9 str to 9.4 .

What are u even saying hahaha.


Yeah, and don't forget that ECM ships optimal is like 70km so tanking isn't really all that important.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#160 - 2013-07-28 11:25:00 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Also: Do you even know what a brawling is bro?
I do. Now, from the situation you just laid out, kill the tackle orbiting just out of lock range (18km) and the keres orbiting at 36(the keres is putting down a point from here as well).