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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers First post First post
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Phoenix Jones

Small-Arms Fire

Likes received: 1,637

#1701 - 2013-07-26 19:10:06 UTC

Kagura Nikon wrote:

Phoenix Jones wrote:

nikar galvren wrote:

Naomi Knight wrote:

Ranger 1 wrote:

I know that there were issues when an AB bonus was seriously considered for Assault Frigates. However perhaps it SHOULD be considered again for HACs.

Such a bonus on a Cruiser size hull might actually work in a much more balanced fashion than it would have on a Frigate sized hull.

Vagabond pilots might have an aneurism though. Smile

balanced fashion?
it is already hard to hit ab zealots, no need for such bonuses

Hard to hit them with what?

Cruisers are SUPPOSED to be hard for BS sized weapons to hit. the MWD sig bloom bonus doesn't go NEARLY far enough to address this.
Frigs would still be able to pace AND hit an AB-fit cruiser, and the whole point of fitting an AB is to make yourself harder to hit, so cruiser vs cruiser would play out as intended.

An AB speed bonus would at least make HACs the only cruiser able to AB sig tank with a degree of proficiency

EDIT: Though I disagree with the premise of giving ALL HACs the AB Speed boost bonus. 4 Tank, 4 Kite, imo

CCP doesn't want to bring back the whole Nano Speed Tanking Era again, that really did suck beyond belief.

We are all theory crafting though, apparently the CSM have been very intertwined with the new HAC changes, lets see what their collaborated minds come up with.

And I'd probably yell at the CSM first when the releases come out. I mean we did vote for them.

Sucked way less than the current " bring more ships" era, bring the falcon era or bring the dampeners era that we have now.

Oh if I could down vote you I would.

For those wondering, ABC is short for Attack Battlecruisers (the T3 battleship gun battlecruisers) "I know a few people were probably wondering why people kept referring to a Jackson 5 Song as the End all of our problems".

Lets see what Rise and the CSM come up with. If they really do fix these ships "and I'm not quite sure how they plan on doing it".

It'll be interesting the rage that may come soon (both warranted and unwarranted). I need to find some popcorn.

Yaay!!!!

State War Academy Caldari State 5,978
Il Feytid State War Academy Caldari State Likes received: 5,978	#1702 - 2013-07-26 19:10:31 UTC 2 Brawler HAC should get bonus to fitting MJD and kitting HAC bonus to fitting TSB.

Mole Guy

Bob's Bait and Tackle

Likes received: 458

#1703 - 2013-07-26 19:48:27 UTC

its amazing how people exaggerate things to extreme ends to discredit someone and kill a point.

i suggested 10% bonus per level of hac to AB pages ago instead of the mwd bonus.
my sac does 500 or so, 700 or so with a burner. thats 200 m/s and 50% more would be 300 m/s boost or an 800 m/s sac. even if it were 20%, its hardly worth getting your panties in a wad over. HARDLY bringing back the nano age. i was here, i remember it. 12km/s mach's..insane. 19km/s inties.
i dont wish that on anyone.
but, having something to help would go along way. a 900 m/s sac is 1/2 what an mwd can bring.

rebalance the vaggy. give it one less low and 1 more mid. fix all the ships then add another slot.
boost their fittings so they can fit regular weapons AND an mwd or burner.
heavy assault means lot of dps. lots of tank.. survivability.
it CAN be mobility if we break em up into light assault and heavy assault like what was suggested by someone else.

i think we should call them assault frigates and assault cruisers. inside each catagory would be light and heavy assault. light being mobile, heavy being tanked. they need 3/4 the tank of the hics and all the dps of the bc's as a rough outline.

give the sac an extra low.
leave the ishtar alone since u are giving extra slots to all (would still be down one since its droning)
give the muninn an extra mid
give the other ships some loving across the board and stick a slot where its most needed.

raise the power grid by a ton, raise the cpu expecially on the ishtar and cerb. we need to fit weapons. thats the point of a hac. to destroy things. not be pretty and wait for other gang members.

Phoenix Jones

Small-Arms Fire

Likes received: 1,637

#1704 - 2013-07-26 19:59:18 UTC | Edited by: Phoenix Jones

eh people just rage to rage sometimes. Its Friday. People are Tired, Bored and Drunk :-)

And we all have our comments and agreements/disagreements. The HAC review's taking longer than we expected (and longer than CCP did too). CCP wants all the ships to be viable. Currently there is.. maybe 3 out of the 8 that are (Zealot, and to some degree the Muninn and the Vagabond), the rest aren't very digestible atm. Ishtar is not very viable in fleet comps and has fitting issues. Deimos gained the Nickname Diemost. I don't remember the last time I saw a Eagle, Cerebus on RAAARE occasion. And even with its resist bonus the Sacrilege is seen as weak (due mostly to its slot layout and dps projection).

People want these ships to be a flat upgrade from the T1's, a viable fleet comp ship that is usable and does not feel like a 250 million isk loss if it gets blown up in 5 seconds in a massive fleet fight. Now generally people don't want to lose T2 ships anyway, but if they die before you get a chance to actually do anything, you ask yourself "why didn't I just fit up a T1 and use it and lose all of 20 mil, vs the 220 mil I just loss". Its a reasonable question, but its the main rational people are using as the balancing factor and issue with the T2's.

1) Cost vs Usefulness.
2) Worth Vs Cheaper Alternatives.

Unfortunately the bulk of People in eve is not made of isk, where if they get a T2 blown up, it doesn't even hurt them in the wallet. You get a army of T2's blown up and your corp has a ship replacement/isk payment program for ships loss in fleet operations, it'll hurt.

5 T2's, no big deal. 100 T2's on a fleet op, yea that's going to dent the Corporation Reimbursement wallet up to about15 to 20 billion for that one op.

Its a balancing act.

Yaay!!!!

Il Feytid

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 5,978

#1705 - 2013-07-26 20:17:05 UTC

Sacrilege Role Bonus:
Immune to Stasis Webbifiers
Can fit Micro Jump Drive and -100% to fitting and capacitor need

Zealot Role Bonus:
Immune to Target Painters
Can fit Target Spectrum Breaker and -100% to fitting and capacitor need

Cerberus Role Bonus:
Immune to Remote Sensor Dampeners
Can fit Micro Jump Drive and -100% to fitting and capacitor need

Eagle Role Bonus:
Immune to Warp Scramblers (this does NOT include warp disruptors)
Can fit Target Spectrum Breaker and -100% to fitting and capacitor need

Deimos Role Bonus:
Immune to ECM Jammers
Can fit Target Spectrum Breaker and -100% to fitting and capacitor need

Ishtar Role Bonus:
Immune to ECM Jammers
Can fit Micro Jump Drive and -100% to fitting and capacitor need

Muninn Role Bonus:
Immune to Tracking Disruptors
Can fit Target Spectrum Breaker and -100% to fitting and capacitor need

Vagabond Role Bonus:
Immune to Energy Neutralizer and Nosfuratu
Can fit Micro Jump Drive and -100% to fitting and capacitor need

Lower the build cost so they don't cost any more than 100m ISK. Now each race has a HAC for guerrilla style hit and run tactics and a HAC that excels at fighting outnumber without overpowering solo and small gang warfare. Keep in mind the MJD and TSB do have penalties while being used.

Phoenix Jones

Small-Arms Fire

Likes received: 1,637

#1706 - 2013-07-26 20:39:47 UTC

Marlona Sky wrote:

ummm........ Friday.. everybody's tired and drunk I said that earlier.

Immunities.. umm.. no.

Yaay!!!!

Gizznitt Malikite

Agony Unleashed

Agony Empire

Likes received: 4,267

#1707 - 2013-07-26 20:45:36 UTC

Marlona Sky wrote:

The above would be overpowered....

Free MJD's fit to the mids, that don't even require cap to activiate?
And to top it off: Eagles that can MWD with impunity, and can MJD out of any situation, because they are immune to scrams?

Part of your ideas are kind of interesting... but they are also overpowered!

Buck Berserk

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 1

#1708 - 2013-07-26 20:50:00 UTC | Edited by: Buck Berserk

Please don't turn the Vagabond into something that's ideal for links. I want a reason to undock the Vaga over a Cynabal or a Talos, not undock the Vaga and another ship over those two. Give it another sig bonus or something, anything other than a shield boost bonus.

edit- Also cost. For the love of God, if these ships are going to have anything near the performance of your initial proposals, lower the materials required to build them to something equivalent to attack battlecruisers. If they remain priced as they are I'd see no reason to take em over t3 bcs if I want damage, t3 cruisers if I want to tank **** or t1 cruisers if I want to spend 20 times less isk on a spaceship explosion.

Wolf Kraft

Underground Smellroad

Likes received: 5

#1709 - 2013-07-26 21:12:08 UTC | Edited by: Wolf Kraft

Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet, but is the description for the vagabond going to be changed with the patch? Just wondering because this is part of the current description.

Quote:

The fastest cruiser invented to date, this vessel is ideal for hit-and-run ops where both speed and firepower are required. Its on-board power core may not be strong enough to handle some of the larger weapons out there, but when it comes to guerilla work, the Vagabond can't be beat.

After this change the vagabond going to be slower than a stabber...

*It's also already slower than a cynabal

Il Feytid

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 5,978

#1710 - 2013-07-26 21:20:16 UTC

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Marlona Sky wrote:

Eagle does NOT have MJD bonus.

Zansha Expansion 1,739
elitatwo Zansha Expansion Likes received: 1,739	#1711 - 2013-07-26 21:35:29 UTC \| Edited by: elitatwo Marlona Sky wrote: Eagle does NOT have ANY bonus. There you go. Don't take it the wrong way, I do make mistakes all the time. Eve Minions is recruiting. This is the law of ship progression! Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

DeadDuck

Trust Doesn't Rust

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 211

#1712 - 2013-07-26 23:07:56 UTC | Edited by: DeadDuck

Marlona Sky wrote:

Target lock breaker is only good for fleet fights. Almost useless for small gang warfare, where these ships will be (hopefully) widelly used.

Why are having Gallentean ships immunity to the same EW and the other for different kinds of EW ? TBH I sense here an attempt to favour some of the Hacs instead of others...

Il Feytid

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 5,978

#1713 - 2013-07-26 23:18:18 UTC

DeadDuck wrote:

Marlona Sky wrote:

AF gets a role bonus to MWD but that does not mean it HAS to fit one. While the bonus helps it in large scale fights, fitting an AB for small scale is common.

All of Caldaris EW bonuses focus on one type of EW, had it been two different ones you would have seen one on the Deimos and the other on the Ishtar.

Rek Seven

University of Caille

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 2,269

#1714 - 2013-07-26 23:42:40 UTC | Edited by: Rek Seven

In a world with AB bonuses HACs and the upcoming medium long range gun tracking nerf, we would have a ship that could fit in very nicely with the other ships we have in the game now.

The true AHAC would be able to use sig tanking and range to fight harder hitting and fast ships like battle cruisers and Tech 3 but, they would be more vulnerable to frigates and the new Destroyers. We could even see an increase in the use of the t2 e-war frigates that can take advantage of their poor tracking.

It would be a thrill for me to fly something like the AB HAC over my slow proteus but at the moment, CCPs current plans do not make me excited to fly their new HAC because already I'm tired of the rock, paper, scissor combat in this game.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...

Fewell

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 18

#1715 - 2013-07-26 23:46:12 UTC | Edited by: Fewell

With the Diemos' nos gone and a new mid, you pretty much have to fit a cap booster. When you fit a cap booster, you have no need whatsoever for a mwd cap bonus.

You wan't T2 cruisers to fill a specialized role, but you're giving the Vagabond a bonus that doesn't do much for it's role of a fast support killing kiter.
Yes, it can brawl with ASBs, but why give it a bonus that takes advantage of a few fits relying on one module? Why give it a bonus which can be easily abused with links and implants? Why give it a bonus which will make it compete with the SFI in catching up to ships and then holding it in place while tanking damage, and will likely supplant the SFI in many cases? That's not specialization.

Give the vaga something to help with the fast kiting role instead. All medium ACs ships took a hit with the TE nerf, so change that shield boosting bonus to another falloff bonus which will give the effect of one of the old TEs? This will give it back its old dps at point range. It will also add applied damage to your current brawling Vaga fits.
It's not like there are no other double range-bonused HACs out there either.


Rek Seven University of Caille Gallente Federation Likes received: 2,269	#1716 - 2013-07-26 23:54:32 UTC 1 Marlona Sky wrote: Brawler HAC should get bonus to fitting MJD... Let's save a special MJD bonus for black ops and marauders. The wishlist is pretty much complete...

Mole Guy

Bob's Bait and Tackle

Likes received: 458

#1717 - 2013-07-27 00:05:27 UTC | Edited by: Mole Guy

Rek Seven wrote:

In a world with AB bonuses HACs and the upcoming medium long range gun tracking nerf, we would have a ship that could fit in very nicely with the other ships we have in the game now.

The true AHAC would be able to use sig tanking and range to fight harder hitting and fast ships like battle cruisers and Tech 3 but, they would be more vulnerable to frigates and the new Destroyers. We could even see an increase in the use of the t2 e-war frigates that can take advantage of their poor tracking.

It would be a thrill for me to fly something like the AB HAC over my slow proteus but CCPs current plans do not make me excited to fly their new HAC because I'm tired of all the rock, paper, scissor combat.

this is exactly what i was thinking. a burner to help dictate range. they dont need extreme tanks if they have burner speed bonus.
we dont even have to make them faster based speed because they gain it and more back.
over powered? not a chance in hell, but that could be their specialty...burners. good resists, great damage and +burner speed.

once caught, of course they would go down with the rest of them, but its REALLY hard to hit without web.


Il Feytid State War Academy Caldari State Likes received: 5,978	#1718 - 2013-07-27 00:07:25 UTC Rek Seven wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: Brawler HAC should get bonus to fitting MJD... Let's save a special MJD bonus for black ops and marauders. They already can use them.

University of Caille Gallente Federation 3,623
Omnathious Deninard University of Caille Gallente Federation Likes received: 3,623	#1719 - 2013-07-27 00:21:51 UTC Marlona Sky, I can appreciate where you are coming from trying to give the MJD and TSB a unique role that makes them usable in more than a couple situations, but I don't think this is the right area. If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.


Il Feytid State War Academy Caldari State Likes received: 5,978	#1720 - 2013-07-27 00:23:50 UTC Omnathious Deninard wrote: Marlona Sky, I can appreciate where you are coming from trying to give the MJD and TSB a unique role that makes them usable in more than a couple situations, but I don't think this is the right area. Why not?

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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Small-Arms Fire

State War Academy

Caldari State

Bob's Bait and Tackle

Agony Unleashed

Agony Empire

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Underground Smellroad

Zansha Expansion

Trust Doesn't Rust

Goonswarm Federation

University of Caille

Gallente Federation

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

University of Caille

Gallente Federation