These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Missions & Complexes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CCP Why do nothing about ISBoxer
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Rolstra
Moo's Mudpit
#21 - 2013-07-26 00:47:33 UTC
With careful investments, and persistent incursion running ISK I have managed to amass over half a trillion ISK with just one toon in the last 18 months.

Imagine how much someone could get running 20 at a time.

Nothing wrong with it, just figured some real numbers might help with the perspective.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#22 - 2013-07-26 04:29:04 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Then explain why or GTFO.


It's generally bad for a game if third party software gives some players a huge advantage (automated or not). The Eve community has such a dense developer/IT component that CCP can get away with semi-integrated third party tools, but the OP's intuition is fairly reasonable given that almost every other game takes a stricter stance.


Whats the advantage?

10 way split with 10x the loot is 1x rate of gain.

It gives CCP 9 extra subs.



Presuming he makes 70mil/character and plays 10 hours a week at it, he'll be seeing ~30bil a month, with a bit over 5bil / mo costs if plexing the characters.

Consider it currently the same as holding 10 R64s for the month.


And he'll have the same amount of ISK leftover per toon as everyone else in New Eden who makes 70 mil an hour. And he'll spend the same amount of time farming PLEX as anyone who makes 70 mil an hour.

Quote:
Obviously, 10x manpower doesn't equate to 10x loot. I mean, the posted video is of soloing incursions. I'm all ears if you can't teach me to run incursions efficiently in a solo apoc.

He's also presumably buying PLEX with all the incursion money. I don't feel like having a bad economics discussion, but buying 9x PLEX does NOT directly equate to paying CCP 9x subscriptions.



I can teach you to run vanguards in 10 ships on 10 accounts total. You cant run Incursions efficiently in any amount of Apocs.

Buying PLEX, GTC, or Subs does equate to money CCP is collecting. All 3 of those items can be purchased and activated at a later date so save the economics rhetoric.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#23 - 2013-07-26 05:35:01 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Buying PLEX, GTC, or Subs does equate to money CCP is collecting. All 3 of those items can be purchased and activated at a later date so save the economics rhetoric.


PLEX equates to money that CCP collected in the past. Buying PLEX increases the demand, but that doesn't necessarily increase the supply - let alone directly equate to paying CCP money. I hate over complicated economic nonsense more than the next guy, but this is a pretty fundamental thing you can't assume.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#24 - 2013-07-26 05:52:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
S Byerley wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Buying PLEX, GTC, or Subs does equate to money CCP is collecting. All 3 of those items can be purchased and activated at a later date so save the economics rhetoric.


PLEX equates to money that CCP collected in the past. Buying PLEX increases the demand, but that doesn't necessarily increase the supply - let alone directly equate to paying CCP money. I hate over complicated economic nonsense more than the next guy, but this is a pretty fundamental thing you can't assume.


You can buy single PLEX directly from CCP.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#25 - 2013-07-26 05:57:47 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Buying PLEX, GTC, or Subs does equate to money CCP is collecting. All 3 of those items can be purchased and activated at a later date so save the economics rhetoric.


PLEX equates to money that CCP collected in the past. Buying PLEX increases the demand, but that doesn't necessarily increase the supply - let alone directly equate to paying CCP money. I hate over complicated economic nonsense more than the next guy, but this is a pretty fundamental thing you can't assume.


You can buy single PLEX directly from CCP.


OK? We were talking about someone buying it off the market with ISK to renew their subscription,
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-07-26 06:06:43 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Buying PLEX, GTC, or Subs does equate to money CCP is collecting. All 3 of those items can be purchased and activated at a later date so save the economics rhetoric.


PLEX equates to money that CCP collected in the past. Buying PLEX increases the demand, but that doesn't necessarily increase the supply - let alone directly equate to paying CCP money. I hate over complicated economic nonsense more than the next guy, but this is a pretty fundamental thing you can't assume.


You can buy single PLEX directly from CCP.


OK? We were talking about someone buying it off the market with ISK to renew their subscription,


Where do you think that PLEX came from in the first place? Yes, someone bought hat PLEX from CCP earlier.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#27 - 2013-07-26 07:48:01 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Tauranon wrote:


Presuming he makes 70mil/character and plays 10 hours a week at it, he'll be seeing ~30bil a month, with a bit over 5bil / mo costs if plexing the characters.

Consider it currently the same as holding 10 R64s for the month.


And he'll have the same amount of ISK leftover per toon as everyone else in New Eden who makes 70 mil an hour. And he'll spend the same amount of time farming PLEX as anyone who makes 70 mil an hour.



He's never going to spend the money evenly across toons.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-07-26 11:25:51 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
And he'll have the same amount of ISK leftover per toon as everyone else in New Eden who makes 70 mil an hour. And he'll spend the same amount of time farming PLEX as anyone who makes 70 mil an hour.


How can you even write this and act like it's correct?

The guy has 25bil left over to do with what he wishes, he has no obligation to spend it on each of the characters evenly.

Can you make 25bil in 40 hours?

Art of Explosions
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#29 - 2013-07-26 12:56:21 UTC
Cipher is right as usual. Those characters aren't free. Eash additional character is another 550 mil isk per month (or whatever plex costs right this moment) or $15 per month of pure overhead.

It's not hard to make a profit though. I use at most 3 accounts at a time (i don't use ISBoxer, tried it but is to me seemed more tedious than just using fof missiles or assigning drones), but usually only 2 doing PVE and I make enough to plex 4 accounts and have more than that left over to do other things with. You only need to make 70 mil a day to plex 4 accounts a month like I do, anything more than that (and ammo and maybe sometimes ship replacement costs) is "profit" so to speak.

Isboxer guys make isk it's true, but I don't have a problem with it. It's not like they are taking anything from me.
Jack Earthfire
Everse Defense Initiative
#30 - 2013-07-26 14:03:01 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
How can you even write this and act like it's correct?

The guy has 25bil left over to do with what he wishes, he has no obligation to spend it on each of the characters evenly.

Can you make 25bil in 40 hours?


But it is okay to farm with Moon Mining 25bil a month just by doing 1-2 hours logistic movements? At least he spend 40 hours to earn the ISK.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-07-26 14:16:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
Jack Earthfire wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
How can you even write this and act like it's correct?

The guy has 25bil left over to do with what he wishes, he has no obligation to spend it on each of the characters evenly.

Can you make 25bil in 40 hours?


But it is okay to farm with Moon Mining 25bil a month just by doing 1-2 hours logistic movements? At least he spend 40 hours to earn the ISK.


That's something completely different, you have to actually own the space that moon is in, defend it if it's being contested etc

not something that one person can do.

Additionally: that's not all going to one person.

Art of Explosions
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-07-26 14:43:27 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
And he'll have the same amount of ISK leftover per toon as everyone else in New Eden who makes 70 mil an hour. And he'll spend the same amount of time farming PLEX as anyone who makes 70 mil an hour.


How can you even write this and act like it's correct?

The guy has 25bil left over to do with what he wishes, he has no obligation to spend it on each of the characters evenly.

Can you make 25bil in 40 hours?


Why should Dominix be able to get 1 billion/hr?
Epic Rupture
Trident Holdings
#33 - 2013-07-26 14:55:03 UTC
How about this. If someone who multi-boxes with ISboxer using 8+ boxes can make a video of themselves using the same amount of boxes just as well without using ISboxer, doing anything that requires shooting guns, I will admit ISboxer is not a problem.

All I want is two videos. One with ISboxer, one without, doing the same activity with the same amount of boxes (8+).

If it really is just as easy to multibox without ISboxer, than this should be no problem.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-07-26 15:19:12 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Buying PLEX, GTC, or Subs does equate to money CCP is collecting. All 3 of those items can be purchased and activated at a later date so save the economics rhetoric.


PLEX equates to money that CCP collected in the past. Buying PLEX increases the demand, but that doesn't necessarily increase the supply - let alone directly equate to paying CCP money. I hate over complicated economic nonsense more than the next guy, but this is a pretty fundamental thing you can't assume.


You can buy single PLEX directly from CCP.


OK? We were talking about someone buying it off the market with ISK to renew their subscription,


Some people buy all thier game time from CCP and not with PLEX from the market. See Charadrass (spelling) post on the first page for example.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#35 - 2013-07-26 17:28:23 UTC
Epic Rupture wrote:
How about this. If someone who multi-boxes with ISboxer using 8+ boxes can make a video of themselves using the same amount of boxes just as well without using ISboxer, doing anything that requires shooting guns, I will admit ISboxer is not a problem.

All I want is two videos. One with ISboxer, one without, doing the same activity with the same amount of boxes (8+).

If it really is just as easy to multibox without ISboxer, than this should be no problem.



You don't need that much. All you need is the owner/maker of the game to tell you that it's ok.

CCP said it's ok and it's their game, end of story.
Nadia Gallen
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#36 - 2013-07-26 17:46:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Nadia Gallen
Jenn aSide wrote:
Epic Rupture wrote:
How about this. If someone who multi-boxes with ISboxer using 8+ boxes can make a video of themselves using the same amount of boxes just as well without using ISboxer, doing anything that requires shooting guns, I will admit ISboxer is not a problem.

All I want is two videos. One with ISboxer, one without, doing the same activity with the same amount of boxes (8+).

If it really is just as easy to multibox without ISboxer, than this should be no problem.



You don't need that much. All you need is the owner/maker of the game to tell you that it's ok.

CCP said it's ok and it's their game, end of story.


Sure, If one of the owners says its okay and that is a official statement from CCP, not a GM, then I might accept it. Until then we, as players, will consider it a exploit, equal with botting.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#37 - 2013-07-26 17:48:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
And he'll have the same amount of ISK leftover per toon as everyone else in New Eden who makes 70 mil an hour. And he'll spend the same amount of time farming PLEX as anyone who makes 70 mil an hour.


How can you even write this and act like it's correct?

The guy has 25bil left over to do with what he wishes, he has no obligation to spend it on each of the characters evenly.

Can you make 25bil in 40 hours?


I'm totally cheating because I send billions from my industry alt to my PvP alt.

Ban me CCP I'm making my PvP character gain Isk at an ill proportionate rate.

And honestly another great reason to fix the war dec system. It would be exceedingly simple to kill someone running 10 clients in an incursion.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Nadia Gallen
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#38 - 2013-07-26 18:05:09 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
And he'll have the same amount of ISK leftover per toon as everyone else in New Eden who makes 70 mil an hour. And he'll spend the same amount of time farming PLEX as anyone who makes 70 mil an hour.


How can you even write this and act like it's correct?

The guy has 25bil left over to do with what he wishes, he has no obligation to spend it on each of the characters evenly.

Can you make 25bil in 40 hours?


I'm totally cheating because I send billions from my industry alt to my PvP alt.

Ban me CCP I'm making my PvP character gain Isk at an ill proportionate rate.

And honestly another great reason to fix the war dec system. It would be exceedingly simple to kill someone running 10 clients in an incursion.


An industial alt isn't a incursion problem.

But I agree, it could be totally awesome if whoever got wardec'ed would keep, say killrights on them, once they left the corp/alliance which got wardec'ed. Just for 48 hours or so
Epic Rupture
Trident Holdings
#39 - 2013-07-26 18:14:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Epic Rupture
Jenn aSide wrote:


You don't need that much. All you need is the owner/maker of the game to tell you that it's ok.

CCP said it's ok and it's their game, end of story.



Accually they have said they don't recommend anyone use it as it is not officially supported, but thats not what I'm after. Everyone using it states it is just as easy to multibox without ISBoxer because it gives "no advantage." I would like someone to prove it.

EDIT (Source):

From ISBoxers own site (CCPs official statement)

Quote:
This extends to multiboxing software. Some of the multiboxing software out there is powerful enough to count as “client modification” if used for that purpose. Our stance on third-party software is that we do not endorse such software as we have no control over what it does. As such, we can’t say that multiboxing software isn’t against our EULA. But the same goes in this case, that unless we determine that people are doing things beyond “multiboxing”, we will not be taking any action. We only care about the instances where people are messing with our process for the purposes of cheating, and running multiple clients at the same time is not in violation of our EULA in and of itself unless it involves trial accounts.


Notice how it says nothing about click multiplation (which is why ISBoxer is used), only multiboxing. In my opinion, ISBoxer makes it go "Beyond Multiboxing"
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#40 - 2013-07-26 19:09:22 UTC
Nadia Gallen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Epic Rupture wrote:
How about this. If someone who multi-boxes with ISboxer using 8+ boxes can make a video of themselves using the same amount of boxes just as well without using ISboxer, doing anything that requires shooting guns, I will admit ISboxer is not a problem.

All I want is two videos. One with ISboxer, one without, doing the same activity with the same amount of boxes (8+).

If it really is just as easy to multibox without ISboxer, than this should be no problem.



You don't need that much. All you need is the owner/maker of the game to tell you that it's ok.

CCP said it's ok and it's their game, end of story.


Sure, If one of the owners says its okay and that is a official statement from CCP, not a GM, then I might accept it. Until then we, as players, will consider it a exploit, equal with botting.


The GMs work for CCP