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Proposal : Missile Skillpoint rebalancing
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Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#21 - 2013-07-26 06:39:56 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Have trained gunnery top skills and missiles in different characters, why do I have the feeling it was a pain in the butt training gunnery and not missiles?

Because guns you have no choice at all, you have to train from smaller to bigger then spec in SR and LR otherwise you're stuck with T1's faction.

Missiles once support skills up all I needed is to spec the only missiles worth, no smaller missiles specialization required to get the higher ones, no need to have spec 4 rockets/lights to train specs HAMs or HMs, and this is a huge advantage.


And yet you sit here twiddling your thumbs complaining instead of evaluation the pros and cons of a previously posted solution or coming up with your own solution.

The solution I posted solves the issues with both sides. Gunnery gets the ability to specialize, and missiles are not penalized for wanting to generalize. Critique it or come up with another solution.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-07-26 06:51:45 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Have trained gunnery top skills and missiles in different characters, why do I have the feeling it was a pain in the butt training gunnery and not missiles?

Because guns you have no choice at all, you have to train from smaller to bigger then spec in SR and LR otherwise you're stuck with T1's faction.

Missiles once support skills up all I needed is to spec the only missiles worth, no smaller missiles specialization required to get the higher ones, no need to have spec 4 rockets/lights to train specs HAMs or HMs, and this is a huge advantage.


And yet you sit here twiddling your thumbs complaining instead of evaluation the pros and cons of a previously posted solution or coming up with your own solution.

The solution I posted solves the issues with both sides. Gunnery gets the ability to specialize, and missiles are not penalized for wanting to generalize. Critique it or come up with another solution.



Because the current system is ok with advantages and drawbacks and imho you're finding issues that don't exist anywhere else than in your mind?

The only dude I see complaining here with a prison backdoor humor is you.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#23 - 2013-07-26 07:09:56 UTC
"I am going to first complain about the current system, but when asked to help fix it I am going to say the current system is fine and accuse the person asking me to help find the solution of making issues up despite just pointing out an issue with the current system". Wow. Why even both posting at all?

Seriously. You identified a pain point. Why not try and fix it? It would clearly make things easier for you to specialize your gunnery pilots. You claim the current system is merely "ok". If you don't want to help make it a perfect system, where you gain advantages over the current system when you train gunnery and when you train missiles, that's fine. Enjoy your time complaining how awesome missile training is over gunnery. Blink
Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic
#24 - 2013-07-26 07:38:35 UTC
Kirtar Makanen wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Balancing against tournaments is a bad idea. The domi isn't winning for the drones so much as the utility. Caldari missile ships are also doing well this year which works against this idea.

I'm not sure if I'm watching a different tournament or if you have a different definition of utility than I do. Furthermore, it's not like Dominixes and Prophecies aren't being used in fleets. Several of the caldari missile comps are winning due to recent buffs specific missiles (namely cruises) and ships (namely raven hulls and navy scorps) along with the ability of these particular ships to tinker tank. While the drone advantage (drone assist coordinating damage) scales well, tinker tanks do not.

You should take your own advice about balancing around tournaments because I have yet to see a major alliance field a cruise missile doctrine (looks like it's being considered), but there have been people running drone doctrines.


*coughtribecough*
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#25 - 2013-07-26 10:15:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Dragon Khamez
Over the years CCP has gone balls out to punish missile users because of what ultimately is bad client design. Each missile gets logged on the server then logged of again when destroyed which results in massive lag build up in fleets, as part of the war on lag, missiles have been relentlessly nerfed and pushed into a position of almost non viability to encourage players to use guns instead.

Intuitively missiles should be the most damaging and feared of all weapon systems as they literally bring the damage to you and explode in your face. According to the lore some of the very heavy torps are supposed to be the equivalent of tactical nukes, yet in the game they are often not worth bringing to the fight unless you can guarantee that your enemy will behave in the way that you would like him to. This isn't true of any other weapon system. CCP Fozzie mentioned that they've more or less solved the problems with the bigger missiles and now only have issues with light missiles so I think it's high time that heavier missiles were buffed to be the equal of comparable weapon systems.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Doddy
Excidium.
#26 - 2013-07-26 13:52:14 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Over the years CCP has gone balls out to punish missile users because of what ultimately is bad client design. Each missile gets logged on the server then logged of again when destroyed which results in massive lag build up in fleets, as part of the war on lag, missiles have been relentlessly nerfed and pushed into a position of almost non viability to encourage players to use guns instead.

Intuitively missiles should be the most damaging and feared of all weapon systems as they literally bring the damage to you and explode in your face. According to the lore some of the very heavy torps are supposed to be the equivalent of tactical nukes, yet in the game they are often not worth bringing to the fight unless you can guarantee that your enemy will behave in the way that you would like him to. This isn't true of any other weapon system. CCP Fozzie mentioned that they've more or less solved the problems with the bigger missiles and now only have issues with light missiles so I think it's high time that heavier missiles were buffed to be the equal of comparable weapon systems.


All missiles have been continuously buffed since the great missile formula nerf (which itself happened as missiles were so op everything else became useless). The sole exceptions was heavy missiles, which were ludicrously op having been designed as the sole medium missile type (for some weird reason) and so had the dps of close range weapons with the projection of long range weapons. Those have been nerfed, but they were hideously broken to start with.

I do agree with your point about missile damage. CCP went completely the wrong way when they reduced missile alpha but increased rof, it should have been the other way round. DPS should be as is now but missiles should be the top alpha weapon.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-07-26 14:16:21 UTC
Aliventi wrote:

Spin baby spin!


Im clouding nothing, im looking at it from a skill-plan point of view
not isolating 1 small aspect and trying to twist it to make it seem worse than it is


all ive done is post the SP numbers for minimum SP training costs in 2 weapon groups







heres a Q for you --> how much SP is it for Caldari BS 5
A) 2,213,255 SP
B) 5,964,000 SP
Kirtar Makanen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-07-26 14:52:59 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Over the years CCP has gone balls out to punish missile users because of what ultimately is bad client design. Each missile gets logged on the server then logged of again when destroyed which results in massive lag build up in fleets, as part of the war on lag, missiles have been relentlessly nerfed and pushed into a position of almost non viability to encourage players to use guns instead.

Intuitively missiles should be the most damaging and feared of all weapon systems as they literally bring the damage to you and explode in your face. According to the lore some of the very heavy torps are supposed to be the equivalent of tactical nukes, yet in the game they are often not worth bringing to the fight unless you can guarantee that your enemy will behave in the way that you would like him to. This isn't true of any other weapon system. CCP Fozzie mentioned that they've more or less solved the problems with the bigger missiles and now only have issues with light missiles so I think it's high time that heavier missiles were buffed to be the equal of comparable weapon systems.

If you looked at the energy estimations for some of the larger guns, the projectiles would also have the impact of a nuke. Furthermore, it's not like projectile and hybrid ammunition wouldn't also have things like antimatter reactions or you know... fusion. I think I read a dev post somewhere that said something to the effect that projectiles have some degree of rocket propulsion on them
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#29 - 2013-07-26 15:19:28 UTC
Realism and physics don't work in EVE.

Taken from the description of how they work, Hybrids would be the most fearsome weapon system.

If Hybrid charges have any mass to speak of at all, then accelerating them to significant fractions of the speed of light before having them hit something would be far worse than just detonating a fission bomb on the outside.

Of course, there is no reason, from a lore standpoint, that hybrids could not be delivering the same payloads as standard projectile weapons, meaning that the thing being accelerated to significant fractions of the speed of light may very well be a fission bomb. For whatever reason the devs in the early days decided that it would be projectiles and not hybrids with damage selecting turrets, but there is no real reasoning for this.

Never mind that what *is* being Accelerated are apparently canisters of Antimatter. The can would hit your ship like a bomb, the antimatter, assuming more than just a few dozen atoms of it, would be unspeakable.
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