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Aggression/Suspect/Timer Flags Question - Somethings not quite right!
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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#41 - 2013-07-25 13:26:46 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
JinSanJong wrote:
Sorry guys i just think its crazy innocent ppl get flagged for just being there and doing nothing wrong.

if you havent fought back, then you shouldnt get flagged for anything

Forget all these BS reason and analogies. The main reason is bc people would simply logoff once they got aggressed and their spaceship would disapear robbing the gankers of the easy kill.

There you go. No logic to it, no good reason other than the tears of gankers getting what they considered cheated of their easy mode high sec lets kill somone who cant fight back so I can pad my kill stats because I suck at real pvp.



Someone touched you in your special place in hisec didn't they?

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
JinSanJong
Doomheim
#42 - 2013-07-25 14:16:33 UTC
I wish people would stop with the RL 'disappearing' analogy. You cant log off in RL or just disappear - this is a game ffs lol.

My point im making is, the innocent person gets penalised for doing nothing wrong. Now with all the responses I totally agree, if you fight back, if you are a war target (because you agree to be in a war). So what we are talking about is consensual combat then yeah fine hit them with penalties. I totally agree people shouldnt be able to just log off, but that's if they choose to enter in combat.

So the game is now turning towards the aggressors, and making it easy to kill people. Do you not wonder why new players etc dont bother sticking with the game, and eve hasn't really grown in players online/subs for a few years now? Because of silly mechanics like this.

People want to come and play eve, becuase they may want to build or mine or explore, but really you are entering into a world of pvp whether you like it or not. So the whole sandbox (be what you want to be) goes out of the window.

No wonder people quit the game after a few months.
Elizabeth Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2013-07-25 14:24:06 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
JinSanJong wrote:
Sorry guys i just think its crazy innocent ppl get flagged for just being there and doing nothing wrong.

if you havent fought back, then you shouldnt get flagged for anything

Forget all these BS reason and analogies. The main reason is bc people would simply logoff once they got aggressed and their spaceship would disapear robbing the gankers of the easy kill.

There you go. No logic to it, no good reason other than the tears of gankers getting what they considered cheated of their easy mode high sec lets kill somone who cant fight back so I can pad my kill stats because I suck at real pvp.



The only people who bring up killboard stats are the whiny carebears who think that's what motivates gankers. And of course, the standard argument that gankers want an "easy kill" when in reality it's anything but that. The carebears want to be immune to combat in highsec. That's the ultimate "easy mode".

JinSanJong wrote:
I wish people would stop with the RL 'disappearing' analogy. You cant log off in RL or just disappear - this is a game ffs lol.

My point im making is, the innocent person gets penalised for doing nothing wrong. Now with all the responses I totally agree, if you fight back, if you are a war target (because you agree to be in a war). So what we are talking about is consensual combat then yeah fine hit them with penalties. I totally agree people shouldnt be able to just log off, but that's if they choose to enter in combat.

So the game is now turning towards the aggressors, and making it easy to kill people. Do you not wonder why new players etc dont bother sticking with the game, and eve hasn't really grown in players online/subs for a few years now? Because of silly mechanics like this.

People want to come and play eve, becuase they may want to build or mine or explore, but really you are entering into a world of pvp whether you like it or not. So the whole sandbox (be what you want to be) goes out of the window.

No wonder people quit the game after a few months.



You were the first person to make idiotic RL analogies, we're just throwing them back in your face. A sandbox doesn't mean that you can do what you want, it means that everyone can do what they want, because this is a multiplayer game. Being able to interact with other people in so many different ways is what makes it a sandbox.
Takari
Promised Victorious Entropy
#44 - 2013-07-25 14:31:44 UTC
CCP removed logging off as a recourse to combat.

Whether or not you aggressed you do not get to log off and be safe. Your choices are to fight or run using the in-game mechanics.

"Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things. Welcome to EVE." ~ CCP Falcon

"Good luck, shoot straight and don't back down." - Serendipity Lost
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#45 - 2013-07-25 14:34:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
JinSanJong wrote:
My point im making is, the innocent person gets penalised for doing nothing wrong.
He doesn't get penalised — he's just not allowed to escape the mess he's found his way into by disappearing into thin air. He may be innocent, but that doesn't mean he hasn't done something wrong.

Quote:
I totally agree people shouldnt be able to just log off, but that's if they choose to enter in combat.
And this is the kind of game where choosing not enter combat means either not undocking, or otherwise ensuring that you stay out of trouble. If you jump through into a camp, then that was your choice. It was a bad one. Now they're going to rough you up, and simply vanishing to escape your mistake is not going to be an option because it has proven to be a horrible option for the overall gameplay.

Quote:
People want to come and play eve, becuase they may want to build or mine or explore, but really you are entering into a world of pvp whether you like it or not. So the whole sandbox (be what you want to be) goes out of the window.
Wrong way around. It's because your entering into a world of PvP that the game is a sandbox. “Multiplayer sandbox” does not mean you can do whatever you want — it means everyone can do whatever they want, including things that you don't want them to do (to you). It means that if you want things to go a certain way, you have to use the tools at your disposal to ensure that it happens the way you want it to happen, or someone else's will will be done.

Put another way, “sandbox” does not mean you will succeed at anything you wish to attempt — it means you may attempt anything you wish to succeed at. Your largest obstacle in this attempt will be other players that you have to beat (PvP) in order for things to go your way rather than their way.

If people come and play EVE and don't want to enter into a sandbox — i.e. a world of PvP — then they should pick a different, non-sandbox game.

Oh and…
Quote:
I wish people would stop with the RL 'disappearing' analogy. You cant log off in RL or just disappear - this is a game ffs lol.
…how about this analogy, then. You are walking down the street thinking about nothing in particular, when suddenly someone stabs you with a knife. Instead of just skipping ahead to 15 minutes later when you're chillaxing on the patio with a icy rum drink in your hand, the way the story would normally be told (and remembered) without the whole “getting stabbed” part, you now have to actually worry about actually getting away from this knife-wielding maniac and about keeping most of your bodily fluids actually contained within your body. The PvP and NPC timers work the same: no skipping to the relaxing part without living through the running/screaming/gushing part.
Moneta Curran
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2013-07-25 14:46:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Moneta Curran
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
There you go. No logic to it, no good reason other than the tears of gankers getting what they considered cheated of their easy mode high sec lets kill somone who cant fight back so I can pad my kill stats because I suck at real pvp.


Bitter much? However you care to frame it it's a much needed mechanic for preventing people to escape unwanted aggression with impunity. This is a core concept of this particular game. Deal with it.

JinSanJong wrote:
People want to come and play eve, because they may want to build or mine or explore, but really you are entering into a world of pvp whether you like it or not. So the whole sandbox (be what you want to be) goes out of the window.

No wonder people quit the game after a few months.


Welcome to Eve. See the above explanation. FYI most of us only care about those who appreciate the actual rules of the game. Those who come whine about it not living up to their own particular self-centered set of expectations are more than welcome to leave.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#47 - 2013-07-25 14:51:51 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
I wish people would stop with the RL 'disappearing' analogy. You cant log off in RL or just disappear - this is a game ffs lol.

My point im making is, the innocent person gets penalised for doing nothing wrong. Now with all the responses I totally agree, if you fight back, if you are a war target (because you agree to be in a war). So what we are talking about is consensual combat then yeah fine hit them with penalties. I totally agree people shouldnt be able to just log off, but that's if they choose to enter in combat.

So the game is now turning towards the aggressors, and making it easy to kill people. Do you not wonder why new players etc dont bother sticking with the game, and eve hasn't really grown in players online/subs for a few years now? Because of silly mechanics like this.

People want to come and play eve, becuase they may want to build or mine or explore, but really you are entering into a world of pvp whether you like it or not. So the whole sandbox (be what you want to be) goes out of the window.

No wonder people quit the game after a few months.



Bolded the only part of what you said that holds any truth. It's like you don't know what EVE Online is (the is a reason I mention Grand Theft Auto in my 1st post in this thread).

But this sentence is wacky and demonstrates your disconnect with reality: "So the game is now turning towards the aggressors". You're about 10 years late here bub.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#48 - 2013-07-25 14:52:08 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:


My point im making is, the innocent person gets penalised for doing nothing wrong. Now with all the responses I totally agree, if you fight back, if you are a war target (because you agree to be in a war). So what we are talking about is consensual combat then yeah fine hit them with penalties. I totally agree people shouldnt be able to just log off, but that's if they choose to enter in combat.


You logged in.

You undocked.

You have consented to combat.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#49 - 2013-07-25 14:56:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Wrong way around. It's because your entering into a world of PvP that the game is a sandbox. “Multiplayer sandbox” does not mean you can do whatever you want — it means everyone can do whatever they want, including things that you don't want them to do (to you). It means that if you want things to go a certain way, you have to use the tools at your disposal to ensure that it happens the way you want it to happen, or someone else's will will be done.

Put another way, “sandbox” does not mean you will succeed at anything you wish to attempt — it means you may attempt anything you wish to succeed at. Your largest obstacle in this attempt will be other players that you have to beat (PvP) in order for things to go your way rather than their way.

If people come and play EVE and don't want to enter into a sandbox — i.e. a world of PvP — then they should pick a different, non-sandbox game.


This of course.

The OP obviously doesn't like the concept of non-consensual pvp, but this is a corner stone concept in EVE Online. CCP removed logoffski because it violated that core principal.

For me it's simply meant that I've had to fit a cloak to my ratting ship if I PVE'd in a null system that didn't have a station (I don't really trust POSs with my machariel lol) because rat aggo keeps your ship in space too, just not as much as pvp aggro. No big deal.
CompleteFailure
DAWGS Corp.
Negative Feedback
#50 - 2013-07-25 15:05:49 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:

People want to come and play eve, becuase they may want to build or mine or explore, but really you are entering into a world of pvp whether you like it or not. So the whole sandbox (be what you want to be) goes out of the window.


That bolded part is the important bit you need to really understand. That statement is 100% accurate and true. That is what Eve is. Always has been, always will be. If that's not to your taste, you should consider finding another game.

You're operating under the assumption that the Eve universe is something else. It's been said before many times but I'll repeat it: Eve being a sandbox doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want. It means everyone gets to do whatever they want. That includes shooting you whether you want them to or not. Just because you don't want someone to shoot at you doesn't mean you shouldn't be subject to the exact same game mechanics as everyone else.
Elizabeth Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2013-07-25 15:07:54 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Wrong way around. It's because your entering into a world of PvP that the game is a sandbox. “Multiplayer sandbox” does not mean you can do whatever you want — it means everyone can do whatever they want, including things that you don't want them to do (to you). It means that if you want things to go a certain way, you have to use the tools at your disposal to ensure that it happens the way you want it to happen, or someone else's will will be done.

Put another way, “sandbox” does not mean you will succeed at anything you wish to attempt — it means you may attempt anything you wish to succeed at. Your largest obstacle in this attempt will be other players that you have to beat (PvP) in order for things to go your way rather than their way.

If people come and play EVE and don't want to enter into a sandbox — i.e. a world of PvP — then they should pick a different, non-sandbox game.


This of course.

The OP obviously doesn't like the concept of non-consensual pvp, but this is a corner stone concept in EVE Online. CCP removed logoffski because it violated that core principal.

For me it's simply meant that I've had to fit a cloak to my ratting ship if I PVE'd in a null system that didn't have a station (I don't really trust POSs with my machariel lol) because rat aggo keeps your ship in space too, just not as much as pvp aggro. No big deal.



I hope you don't face any rat frigs with that scan resolution D:
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#52 - 2013-07-25 15:13:42 UTC
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Wrong way around. It's because your entering into a world of PvP that the game is a sandbox. “Multiplayer sandbox” does not mean you can do whatever you want — it means everyone can do whatever they want, including things that you don't want them to do (to you). It means that if you want things to go a certain way, you have to use the tools at your disposal to ensure that it happens the way you want it to happen, or someone else's will will be done.

Put another way, “sandbox” does not mean you will succeed at anything you wish to attempt — it means you may attempt anything you wish to succeed at. Your largest obstacle in this attempt will be other players that you have to beat (PvP) in order for things to go your way rather than their way.

If people come and play EVE and don't want to enter into a sandbox — i.e. a world of PvP — then they should pick a different, non-sandbox game.


This of course.

The OP obviously doesn't like the concept of non-consensual pvp, but this is a corner stone concept in EVE Online. CCP removed logoffski because it violated that core principal.

For me it's simply meant that I've had to fit a cloak to my ratting ship if I PVE'd in a null system that didn't have a station (I don't really trust POSs with my machariel lol) because rat aggo keeps your ship in space too, just not as much as pvp aggro. No big deal.



I hope you don't face any rat frigs with that scan resolution D:


I arty fit my mach and pop frings from like 70 k away, so yea it takes me 25 seconds to lock them, when makes thier life spans....26 seconds Cool
Tron 3K
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-07-25 15:25:42 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
I am a little confused about this suspect/crim/agression flags.

I do not understand why the hell somebody who gets attacked receives timer flags. For instance someone agresses me today, i did not attack or anything back yet i get a log off timer flag.

If NPCs attack you then you get some kind of flag etc etc

Why o Why do innocent people who do nothing still get flags? Thats surely wrong.


Ugh.. Its simple.. Its to prevent pussies.. aka JinSanJong to log out and not lose his ship because someone attacked him.. There are "flags" even in your beloved WoW and other games that keep you logged in for a little bit..

No plug pulling for joo!
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2013-07-25 15:56:06 UTC
OP i am sorry to be the one to break this to you.....
There are some people that would try and cheat in an internet spaceship game.
Everyone here is trying to protect you from this ugly truth but i think you are tough enough to be told about these people.
These people if they see their ship is going to die whether to rats or other players would try and escpe death by unplugging the internet.
CCP in their wisdom have found a way to outwit these evil cheats and did so by making sure you can't instantly disappear from the universe (this is even true with no flags - there is a safe log off method if you want to log off in space with no flags).
The flags are thus not a PUNISHMENT but a warning for honest players like you and I so that we don't accidently fall foul of the anti-cheat system in place.
So not a punishment but purely information to make logging off in space safe for the non cheats.
I hope this helps you P

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#55 - 2013-07-25 16:03:17 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Wrong way around. It's because your entering into a world of PvP that the game is a sandbox. “Multiplayer sandbox” does not mean you can do whatever you want — it means everyone can do whatever they want, including things that you don't want them to do (to you). It means that if you want things to go a certain way, you have to use the tools at your disposal to ensure that it happens the way you want it to happen, or someone else's will will be done.

Put another way, “sandbox” does not mean you will succeed at anything you wish to attempt — it means you may attempt anything you wish to succeed at. Your largest obstacle in this attempt will be other players that you have to beat (PvP) in order for things to go your way rather than their way.

If people come and play EVE and don't want to enter into a sandbox — i.e. a world of PvP — then they should pick a different, non-sandbox game.


This of course.

The OP obviously doesn't like the concept of non-consensual pvp, but this is a corner stone concept in EVE Online. CCP removed logoffski because it violated that core principal.

For me it's simply meant that I've had to fit a cloak to my ratting ship if I PVE'd in a null system that didn't have a station (I don't really trust POSs with my machariel lol) because rat aggo keeps your ship in space too, just not as much as pvp aggro. No big deal.



I hope you don't face any rat frigs with that scan resolution D:


I arty fit my mach and pop frings from like 70 k away, so yea it takes me 25 seconds to lock them, when makes thier life spans....26 seconds Cool


I run something similar, only my ratting raven is triple sebo'd with a cloak. Locks pretty fast but I usually dump scan res and just leave one sebo blank for those occasions when I warp in and the rats are a little too far out.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#56 - 2013-07-25 16:04:16 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
JinSanJong wrote:
I wish people would stop with the RL 'disappearing' analogy. You cant log off in RL or just disappear - this is a game ffs lol.


*Makes RL Analogy* > "Hey, don't go using RL analogies"
Roll

Quote:
My point im making is, the innocent person gets penalised for doing nothing wrong. Now with all the responses I totally agree, if you fight back, if you are a war target (because you agree to be in a war). So what we are talking about is consensual combat then yeah fine hit them with penalties. I totally agree people shouldnt be able to just log off, but that's if they choose to enter in combat.


Nobody says you did anything wrong. But that doesn't mean you should be able to escape by pulling the plug on your computer.

From the Devblog:
CCP Tallest wrote:
Logging off should not be a viable tactic

Then there are the logoff mechanics. ... Only by winning or by making a tactical, well planned retreat should your ship be able to survive. It has been said that spaceships are serious business and they damn well should be. We are changing the logoff mechanics in such a way that as long as your enemies are actively engaged in fighting you, logging off is not going to save your ship.


Quote:
So the game is now turning towards the aggressors, and making it easy to kill people. Do you not wonder why new players etc dont bother sticking with the game, and eve hasn't really grown in players online/subs for a few years now? Because of silly mechanics like this.


EVE has, in fact, grown quite a lot in the last few years, recently passing the 500k subscription mark, something (to the best of my knowledge) currently unmatched by any subscription MMO besides WoW.

Quote:
People want to come and play eve, becuase they may want to build or mine or explore, but really you are entering into a world of pvp whether you like it or not. So the whole sandbox (be what you want to be) goes out of the window.

No wonder people quit the game after a few months.


You're confusing a single player sandbox with a multiplayer one.

Here's an old post detailing the differences.

Essentially, a multiplayer sandbox is "Try what you want to try" not "Do what you want to do." You are not guaranteed success, and the obstacles in achieving success are often other players.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#57 - 2013-07-25 22:16:13 UTC
Other people have told you how and why you're wrong on nearly all of this post, but I have a little thing to add to this:
JinSanJong wrote:
My point im making is, the innocent person gets penalised for doing nothing wrong(...)
As I, and others, have tried to explain to you:
Innocence or guilt does not apply. When you leave your notion that "flags make a criminal do", you might actually get to the point of understanding this. So, to reiterate: Aggression flags are on no way, shape or form concerned with guilt or innocence.
Furthermore, none get penalised by these flags. THE ONLY THING that changes is you'll be kept in space for the duration of the flag.

I know these ideas are hard to grasp; they require you to put away your preconceived notions, but trust me, as soon as you put those preconceptions away, it'll make sense to you.
The whole thread: Suddenly, people were just trying to explain it to you.
Emiko P'eng
#58 - 2013-07-25 22:40:03 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
I wish people would stop with the RL 'disappearing' analogy. You cant log off in RL or just disappear - this is a game ffs lol.
You are halfway there in understanding why you cannot logout if you are attacked.

Now add into the equation EVE = Player v Player + EvE has NO SAFE AREAS (Note: Veteran players picking on true beginners in starter systems is frowned upon) + login off is CHEATING! = EVE Online Game mechanic 101

You are not innocent or guilty it has NOTHING to do with that!

So just take a deep breath and have a think about it again.

I am an Carebear yet I still undock knowing someone out their might want to uncloak next to my unarmed Retriever and make my corpse into an ornament Big smile

EVE is not called a 'Sandbox' Game for nothing Big smile
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#59 - 2013-07-25 22:44:01 UTC
Emiko P'eng wrote:
JinSanJong wrote:
I wish people would stop with the RL 'disappearing' analogy. You cant log off in RL or just disappear - this is a game ffs lol.
You are halfway there in understanding why you cannot logout if you are attacked.

Now add into the equation EVE = Player v Player + EvE has NO SAFE AREAS (Note: Veteran players picking on true beginners in starter systems is frowned upon) + login off is CHEATING! = EVE Online Game mechanic 101

You are not innocent or guilty it has NOTHING to do with that!

So just take a deep breath and have a think about it again.

I am an Carebear yet I still undock knowing someone out their might want to uncloak next to my unarmed Retriever and make my corpse into an ornament Big smile

EVE is not called a 'Sandbox' Game for nothing Big smile
You can save the ship by suicide-podding yourself and send it to me on contract.
Much less work for everyone involved.

I'll even spend a few AUR on a nice dress or something.
Girlscouts' honour!
Doddy
Excidium.
#60 - 2013-07-25 23:05:18 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
JinSanJong wrote:

I do not understand why the hell somebody who gets attacked receives timer flags.


Because of Logoffski.






That would be fine if the person aggressed back, i would totally agree with it. But for not then innocent people doing nothing get flagged, that's insane.

Scenario

Dude : Im gonna punch you in the face.
Dude 2 : Err OK
Dude 1 : Kapoww - there you go.
Police : Sorry dude 2 im going to lock you up for the night
Dude 2 : Err what? why?
Police : cos you let someone punch you.
dude 2 : Errrr.. that dont make sense, i didnt do anything


It has nothing to do with the police man. It is not a criminal timer in any way.

It is there to stop people exploiting the log-off (for the player or npc agression timers) or docking/jumping (weapon timers).

With no agression timers anyone can escape from fights or the possibility of a fight or even just being noticed simply by logging off = broken game.

Without weapon timer anyone can simply dock/jump while shooting = broken game.

All the agression timer does is keep your ship in space after you log off without docking. All the weapon timer does is keep you from docking or using a gate.