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Aggression/Suspect/Timer Flags Question - Somethings not quite right!
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Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-07-24 22:30:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Karsa Egivand
JinSanJong wrote:
Yeah but people can either defend themselves, or run away, the innocent person does not get penalised!
The police dont come to you and say oi someone attacked you but we shall arrest you. dont make sense at all


The police doesn't come and get you. You get no official punishment of any kind.

The only thing that happens is that the flag prevents you from leaving the EveUniverse. This is just to get around the technical necessity that while eve is a persistant universe in theory, in practice it is a game that you aren't logged into all the time. But CCP is trying to get around that unfortunate fact, so that you only log on/off in a way that isn't an immersion breaker (alone/unagressed or docked in station).

Basically, it prevents you from escaping the consequences of BEING by magically disappearing. As multiple people pointed out to you, the real-life equivalent is not the police jailing the victim of an attempted murder or robbery, but the innocent vicitim disappearing from reality during the crime to escape his unjust fate. That DOESN't happen in real life either, sometimes the world is just unfair.

Many games try to avoid this sense of unfairness by designing the rules so that you can always be safe if you want to be, but Eve does not. That is why it is referred to as a sandbox game. When you log in and undock, you participate, one grain of sand among many. You might be ground to dust. Beware.
CompleteFailure
DAWGS Corp.
Negative Feedback
#22 - 2013-07-24 22:30:54 UTC
The part you're missing here is that combat isn't consensual in this game; that's by design. By flagging anyone who gets aggressed, regardless of whether or not they shoot back, it prevents them from escaping an unfavorable situation by simply logging off.

Remember, the core of Eve is that combat can happen anywhere, any time, and whether you want it to or not. The fact that you don't want it to be this way doesn't change that, that's the reality of the game you are voluntarily playing. If the person who is aggressed didn't get a timer, then they could get out of a situation they didn't like by just logging off. That kind of defeats the core theme of the game, don't you think?
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#23 - 2013-07-24 22:37:38 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
JinSanJong wrote:

I do not understand why the hell somebody who gets attacked receives timer flags.


Because of Logoffski.






That would be fine if the person aggressed back, i would totally agree with it. But for not then innocent people doing nothing get flagged, that's insane.

Scenario

Dude : Im gonna punch you in the face.
Dude 2 : Err OK
Dude 1 : Kapoww - there you go.
Police : Sorry dude 2 im going to lock you up for the night
Dude 2 : Err what? why?
Police : cos you let someone punch you.
dude 2 : Errrr.. that dont make sense, i didnt do anything

But you are not being locked up for the night. If you want to log off quickly, just dock and log. Being shot at does not stop docking.

Now as to the why: Null sec alliances and other haulers would have neutral alts haul stuff. The way to interfere with this is to gank them, or if i low sec, just attack. But these pilots (who are hauling for the enemy) escape by logging off. The players and CCP decided that was an abuse of game mechanics, and added the log off timer.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Chii'leck Hudson
Falcon Punch.
#24 - 2013-07-25 00:16:07 UTC
I think what you don't understand is without this mechanic certain ship types would be invulnerable. I'll give a couple of examples.

1. Obelisk traveling through highsec during a war. He gets caught and tackled by a small gang or simply just one ship. If he gets no flag he can just log off and his ship will disappear after 1 min. So unless you bring enough DPS to kill him in 1 min he gets away. This scenario is very likely to happen.

2. Someone is out running anomalies in 0.0. an interceptor jumps in, finds the person and tackles them while their gang jumps in and comes for the kill. The anom runner logs out and disappears before the hostile gang can kill them. This scenario is very likely to happen.

These are just two examples that show reasons why you should get a logoff flag. it prevents people who are risk adverse flying high ehp ships from being invulnerable.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#25 - 2013-07-25 01:00:17 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
That would be fine if the person aggressed back, i would totally agree with it. But for not then innocent people doing nothing get flagged, that's insane.

Scenario

Dude : Im gonna punch you in the face.
Dude 2 : Err OK
Dude 1 : Kapoww - there you go.
Police : Sorry dude 2 im going to lock you up for the night
Dude 2 : Err what? why?
Police : cos you let someone punch you.
dude 2 : Errrr.. that dont make sense, i didnt do anything



The logoff timers are not a punishment. They are not there to assign blame or any such thing. They are there to ensure that everyone involved in a fight (whether they want to be or not) remains there for the duration of that fight (or until they escape or die).

They are a way to prevent the following nonsensical situation:

Dude: I'm going to punch you in the face
Dude 2: I'm going to disappear from existance before your punch can hurt me
Dude 1: *Swing*
Dude 2: *POOF*
Dude 1: What?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-07-25 05:45:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
JinSanJong wrote:
Sorry guys i just think its crazy innocent ppl get flagged for just being there and doing nothing wrong.

if you havent fought back, then you shouldnt get flagged for anything


So the people that join others wars is afraid to die. Interesting... Not one of you people logged on when your corp was at war with mine. When they did it was for a few minutes.

Your a war target... which means your there to fight. Suck it up and DIE.

This is meant for people like you.... In the past you had many people jump through the gate see targets waiting for them and then they just log off. Logging of does not save you anymore.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#27 - 2013-07-25 06:03:43 UTC
tl;dr drugs are bad.

you get flagged. #dealwithit
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#28 - 2013-07-25 06:29:15 UTC
You get flagged for an ISK making activity (ratting) or getting shot at, and that's entirely logical. You are partaking in a competition, you get the flag for participation alone. Participation means you must be committed to fend off or flee from hostile players, for at least 5 minutes. You went OK with this when you pressed undock. I understand it's frustrating when you are on the defensive and don't embrace conflict in the first place, but please believe me when I say players popping in- and out of existance would be worse.
Ionisaattori
Honest and Ethical Fair Trade Yachting Corporation
#29 - 2013-07-25 06:42:39 UTC
Let me try to get this right.

JinSanJong wrote:

If NPCs attack you then you get some kind of flag etc etc
Why o Why do innocent people who do nothing still get flags? Thats surely wrong.


Why is this guys shooting NPCs while doing nothing?


JinSanJong wrote:

But for not then innocent people doing nothing get flagged, that's insane.


All the innocent insane people doing nothing and still getting flagged.


Ooooh my head, the puzzles!
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#30 - 2013-07-25 06:46:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
The log off timer doesn't really affect you in highsec. It's there to stop people flying through dangerous space from just realising they can't escape a system and logging off with no repercussions. It means they actually have to actively keep themselves safe until the timer expires, rather than just insta-log off.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Prince Sanguine
#31 - 2013-07-25 08:35:33 UTC
Speaking of timers, its so annoying having to wait 15 minutes in station after ganking someone to mess with them again. I honesty think the time should be a max of 5. it pisses me off so much to wait.

Everytime you read this you are required to send 100 million isk directly to me.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#32 - 2013-07-25 11:06:17 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Doc Fury was able to sum it up in a single sentence... I'll use a little more.

There are different flags. Suspect or Criminal flags are because you have broken CONCORD law under various circumstances. A Limited Engagement is a legal, on its own at least, engagement with a single other player.
These flags are concerning themselves with interactions - namely, how much will people be allowed to do to you, and with what consequence.
Aggression flags are different. A weapon timer has nothing to do with the legality of your action, but rather your ability to escape from the scene. You can't dock up or use stargates with weapon timers.
The 5- and 10- minute aggression flags are simply so your ship doesn't disappear in space for that duration. It affects nothing else. Again, they have nothing to do with the legality of your actions.

As you can see, "flags" are a catch-all term, and the flags that are in opposition to innocence are not the flags you get when you're innocent.
No worries.
Smile


That simply didnt answer my question - i know all that. Flags should be for 'the aggressor' not someone doing nothing!

Why should someone who does nothing get flagged? I just dont get that...You know like a NPC will attack YOU and you get flagged. Eh WTF
It actually did answer your question, just not the answer you'd like.
Try to separate the flags for criminal activity to the flags for something else.

Innocence is not a thing with aggression flags. The term innocent or guilty, action taker or action target, are simply meaningless in the case of aggression flags. They don't apply.
The flags are so both parties can't escape the conflict simply by not being in the universe anymore.
Several people have explained why your police analogy is bad, and shown you what analogy would work. Try to read those posts with the several posts (Mine included) that explains the difference between criminal flags and aggression flags in mind.

Whatever else you think is added to aggression flags I don't know, but I would like you to try and explain it.
Zora'e
#33 - 2013-07-25 11:33:55 UTC
It kinda surprised me a little at first as well until I took the time to READ what the timers stated. The key thing to notice is that, unless you are the aggressor, the timer only says your ship will remain in ---> space <--- for the duration of the timer if you log off ---> In Space <---. At no point are you prevented from docking and logging off, only from logging off while in space with the timer active. If you are the aggressor, or a/the thief, you get different timers that allow anybody and everybody to not only shoot you in the face, but pod kill you with impunity and in some cases, you can't even dock up to escape it short of being podded into a station (if I understood one of the timers I read correctly).

~Z

I won't say you are stupid, but you're not exactly on the Zombie menu either.
Dain Highwind
La Isla del Mono
#34 - 2013-07-25 12:19:13 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
Again if you met someone on the street and they pulled a knife on you, you would run away, oh sorry you cant! So youll get stabbed to death! Eh!


Im confused, do you log off in the street when someone try to rob you?
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#35 - 2013-07-25 12:39:59 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
JinSanJong wrote:

I do not understand why the hell somebody who gets attacked receives timer flags.


Because of Logoffski.


That would be fine if the person aggressed back, i would totally agree with it. But for not then innocent people doing nothing get flagged, that's insane.

Scenario

Dude : Im gonna punch you in the face.
Dude 2 : Err OK
Dude 1 : Kapoww - there you go.
Police : Sorry dude 2 im going to lock you up for the night
Dude 2 : Err what? why?
Police : cos you let someone punch you.
dude 2 : Errrr.. that dont make sense, i didnt do anything


Not entirely correct. The timer is not the police. Think of the timer is an enforcer of physics.

Your scenario fixed:

Dude 1: Im gonna punch you in the face.
Dude 2 : Err OK
Dude 1 : Kapoww - there you go.
Dude 2 - vanishes into thin air.
Dude 1: WTF?

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Emiko P'eng
#36 - 2013-07-25 12:48:04 UTC
As a consummate carebear.
The best real life example is:

You run up to me and thump me in the face, I now have the choice of run or fight!

I decide to run!

For the next few minutes I run for my life, until I either out run my attacker or find a place to hide.

What real life and EVE does not let you do is vanish into thin air after the 1st punch.

The timer is to stop you vanishing, by logging off. Because you cannot log off in real life if someone attacks you unprovoked!

Sorry that is life in both universes.
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#37 - 2013-07-25 12:55:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Inxentas Ultramar
Zora'e wrote:
It kinda surprised me a little at first as well until I took the time to READ what the timers stated. The key thing to notice is that, unless you are the aggressor, the timer only says your ship will remain in ---> space <--- for the duration of the timer if you log off ---> In Space <---. At no point are you prevented from docking and logging off, only from logging off while in space with the timer active. If you are the aggressor, or a/the thief, you get different timers that allow anybody and everybody to not only shoot you in the face, but pod kill you with impunity and in some cases, you can't even dock up to escape it short of being podded into a station (if I understood one of the timers I read correctly).


Almost right! Big smile You can dock with a Suspect timer on you, but often not in the first few seconds of getting it... because you also have a session change timer and / or weapons timer on you, which prevents the actual undocking. Zip around for a minute or let it wear off in a safe. The Suspect timer does not prevent docking itself, but merely makes it legal for others to attack you (this will start a Limited Engagement).
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#38 - 2013-07-25 13:10:49 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
Shahai Shintaro wrote:
It's so you can't instantly log off. Look at this example. I'm in a ship that can kill yours and I engage you. If the flags didn't exist, you could quit the game and magically disappear even though I'm in the middle of fighting you. The flags are solely there to prevent that.


But WHY SHOULDNT YOU! You havent done anything wrong! Cant anyone see my point? If you fought back then fine!

Again if you met someone on the street and they pulled a knife on you, you would run away, oh sorry you cant! So youll get stabbed to death! Eh!




Every ecosystem requires its balance of predator vs. prey, e.g. wolves vs. sheep. In RL nature takes care of the balance, making sure through natural rules of life that enough sheep are caught and killed so that the wolves are fed. If the balance is disrupted all sorts of bad things happen. In eve, ccp has taken the place of nature. It has imposed its flag system so that enough sheep can be caught and the wolves feed. In other words, an innocent person receives a flag when attacked simply because the wolves are hungry and eve's natural order requires a sacrifice to keep it running properly.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#39 - 2013-07-25 13:15:11 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
JinSanJong wrote:
Spurty wrote:
Closes the loop that makes ships invulnerable as they disappear after a far too short amount of time to actually kill

For all We know, you were just about to fire back, but suddenly spot it's not going to work and are looking to use a game mechanic to escape a whelping.

You undocked, you're marked for death


Eh? thats still ridiculous lol. IM sorry mate but thats total BS. You cant be flagged for just being in space lol. Im all for the flags etc if you do something wrong, but for doing nothing, im sorry but you cant simply agree thats right somehow.

If someone came and shot your mom in the face when she was outside, would you say, sorry you shouldnt of stepped outside.


If she was playing a game centered around shooting people, yes.


Ah but eve isnt just about shooting people is it?


You seem resitant to the answers people are giving you, so i;ll just highlight the important words. EVE isn't "just" about shooting, it;s "centered around" shooting and other forms of conflict.

How fun would Grand Theft Auto be is the prostitutes could just log off when you try to steal their Hoe-Money?
HollyShocker 2inthestink
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#40 - 2013-07-25 13:22:48 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
Sorry guys i just think its crazy innocent ppl get flagged for just being there and doing nothing wrong.

if you havent fought back, then you shouldnt get flagged for anything

Forget all these BS reason and analogies. The main reason is bc people would simply logoff once they got aggressed and their spaceship would disapear robbing the gankers of the easy kill.

There you go. No logic to it, no good reason other than the tears of gankers getting what they considered cheated of their easy mode high sec lets kill somone who cant fight back so I can pad my kill stats because I suck at real pvp.