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Are Capsuleers definitively "Immortal" outside of their ships?

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Kourdus
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-07-25 00:14:26 UTC
If so, how?

or can someone just walk up to me in a station or planetside and shoot me in the face and kill me permanently?
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#2 - 2013-07-25 00:28:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Kourdus wrote:
If so, how?

or can someone just walk up to me in a station or planetside and shoot me in the face and kill me permanently?


No, they are not immortal outside the capsule.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Capsule_and_the_Clone

Read that front to back, and it'll explain how the capsule and cloning works. Cloning of that type only works for us inside the capsule. Basically it uses some sort of scanning beam to take a snapshot of your brain-state (your personality, memories, what you are thinking, etc), and sends that information to a remote server to be inserted into a new clone brain. The process of scanning your mind also pretty much turns your brain matter into scrambled eggs inside your skull, so it's done only at the moment of death, and cannot be done before without killing you.

CCP has gone back and forth on whether it's legitimate for people to take a much much slower non-lethal scan of their brain state over several hours and store it in a 'backup clone'. That way, even if they die outside the pod they can wake up in a new body, but lose any memories they have made since the last backup was taken. It's like saving your computer on an external hard drive (except it's your personality in an extra clone), and if you lose your main hard drive (killed outside the capsule), you revert to the backup (technicians wake up your 'soft clone' for you).

Others will probably explain in more detail below.

Katrina Oniseki
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#3 - 2013-07-25 00:32:20 UTC
Several lore figures that were capsuleers have been permanently killed in this way. Otro (can't think of the surname, Gatriushi?) was one of the most prominent, he was the Ishukone CEO prior to the Broker using a Gallente Federation Nyx to suicide gank the corporation's headquarters (a space station).

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#4 - 2013-07-25 00:35:55 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Several lore figures that were capsuleers have been permanently killed in this way. Otro (can't think of the surname, Gatriushi?) was one of the most prominent, he was the Ishukone CEO prior to the Broker using a Gallente Federation Nyx to suicide gank the corporation's headquarters (a space station).


Gariushi. You were close. Smile

Keep in mind that all his backup clones were stored in that station and were destroyed along with him in the blast. TonyG, for all his weirdness and lore twisting, did manage to write that in to explain why Otro Gariushi wasn't just re-cloned.

Katrina Oniseki
Kourdus
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-07-25 02:32:38 UTC
So what makes Capsuleers so intimidating to the general populace, in person?

outside of our ships we are no different from anyone else with Combat Training (right?). You shoot us, we die.

I suppose if we are ever allowed to walk around in the stations, some new lore will have to be written...
Esna Pitoojee
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#6 - 2013-07-25 02:39:25 UTC
In person, they aren't necessarily the most intimidating thing every. A capsuleer's power lays as much with his wealth as with his actual military might, though, and a capsuleer could hire many skilled negotiators to work as his/her proxies so that face-to-face meetings would not be neccessary (or even just do it all remotely).

Even if you do happen to meet a capsuleer in person, would you want to shoot them? Might not the capsuleer have hired a great many dangerous people to make the life of anyone who harms them directly utterly miserable?

"You kill me, everyone dies. Your family, your friends, your pet. You can't outrun us, I have the funds to hire more ships than you do. You can't outfight us, I can buy some of the best military tech on the market. You can just... deal with us."
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#7 - 2013-07-25 03:01:13 UTC
It's more the implied threat of capability that capsuleers possess. With their immense wealth, they can buy just about anything or anybody in the cluster with extremely few exceptions. The difficulty of prosecuting a capsuleer also makes things very tricky with them.

Imagine how much of a dangerous ******* Donald Trump would be if he didn't have to obey the law, and had almost no moral conscience. Okay, bad example... but you see my point, right?

Capsuleers are bad enough dudes that one of CONCORD's primary directives is to protect normal people from immortals. The most powerful paramilitary force in the entire cluster is created expressly to keep capsuleers from being able to rule the universe.

Katrina Oniseki
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#8 - 2013-07-25 03:29:12 UTC
Kourdus wrote:
So what makes Capsuleers so intimidating to the general populace, in person?

outside of our ships we are no different from anyone else with Combat Training (right?). You shoot us, we die.

I suppose if we are ever allowed to walk around in the stations, some new lore will have to be written...



We also have extraordinary capabilities to interface with ships we are piloting, and cybernetically improved brains. This is why capsuleers outclass non-capsuleer pilots so completely - we can react so much faster to situations than non-capsuleers. Parts of this (related to perception in particular) would apply outside the pod too.

But the main thing is - think how much more reckless you can be when you have nothing to lose. A normal person values their life and protects it in almost every situation. A capsuleer simply does not care about their ship and pod any more than you care about your mobile phone IRL - losing it is a nuisance but not a disaster.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Kourdus
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-07-25 03:32:43 UTC
Safe to assume that say, i ground combat, a Capsuleer would typically outclass a regular soldier, due simply to the (I'm assuming much harsher, both mentally and physically) training required to become a Capsuleer?
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#10 - 2013-07-25 03:42:18 UTC
Kourdus wrote:
Safe to assume that say, i ground combat, a Capsuleer would typically outclass a regular soldier, due simply to the (I'm assuming much harsher, both mentally and physically) training required to become a Capsuleer?



Not sure I'd go as far as to say outclass, but they'd outmatch them.

I'd guess that a capsuleer with minimal ground combat training would probably be about a match with someone that has been an elite career soldier.

Give a capsuleer ground combat training, and you have the DUST soldiers - one of whom would be a match for a small platoon even without their immortality.

That said, I don't believe capsuleers would go planetside often. Fuel usage alone would have to be significant to escape the gravity wells of planets (not enough to be a financial burden, but enough to be a logistical one). We're at home in space stations and spaceships.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-07-25 15:47:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
pilots have access to expensive cybernetics, expensive weapons, expensive armour and gear, and if it comes to that, can afford to pay for an elite bodyguard. The pilot themselves may or may not be a dangerous combatant, but the two ex-megacorporate "Personnel Affairs Agents" with DUST implants in their heads and augmented muscles who are following them at a discrete distance in nice and anonymous, but capacious suits?

Bear in mind, in real life there is such a thing as armoured clothing, to be worn by politicians. It's good enough to stop a 9mm handgun at point blank range. and in the EVE world, we know dropsuits have shield emitters, maybe you can buy more discreet ones that operate under clothing.

So the scenario is: you attack the capsuleer. With their heightened cybernetic reflexes, they dodge the attack, or with their expensive armoured executive clothing and shield emitter belt they are spared the worst of it. An instant later their bodyguard have drawn scrambler pistols and you are now a microwave dinner. The capsuleer pays any fines and expenses to the station management and loses the miniscule cost in a cunning tax return the next time they sell a shipment of missile launchers. Your corpse is thrown in the biomass vats and used to fertilise the stations' hydroponics bay.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
CCP Falcon
#12 - 2013-07-25 16:08:56 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
pilots have access to expensive cybernetics, expensive weapons, expensive armour and gear, and if it comes to that, can afford to pay for an elite bodyguard. The pilot themselves may or may not be a dangerous combatant, but the two ex-megacorporate "Personnel Affairs Agents" with DUST implants in their heads and augmented muscles who are following them at a discrete distance in nice and anonymous, but capacious suits?

Bear in mind, in real life there is such a thing as armoured clothing, to be worn by politicians. It's good enough to stop a 9mm handgun at point blank range. and in the EVE world, we know dropsuits have shield emitters, maybe you can buy more discreet ones that operate under clothing.

So the scenario is: you attack the capsuleer. With their heightened cybernetic reflexes, they dodge the attack, or with their expensive armoured executive clothing and shield emitter belt they are spared the worst of it. An instant later their bodyguard have drawn scrambler pistols and you are now a microwave dinner. The capsuleer pays any fines and expenses to the station management and loses the miniscule cost in a cunning tax return the next time they sell a shipment of missile launchers. Your corpse is thrown in the biomass vats and used to fertilise the stations' hydroponics bay.


Delicious.

Big smile

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Shinzhi Xadi
Doomheim
#13 - 2013-07-25 16:17:50 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
pilots have access to expensive cybernetics, expensive weapons, expensive armour and gear, and if it comes to that, can afford to pay for an elite bodyguard. The pilot themselves may or may not be a dangerous combatant, but the two ex-megacorporate "Personnel Affairs Agents" with DUST implants in their heads and augmented muscles who are following them at a discrete distance in nice and anonymous, but capacious suits?

Bear in mind, in real life there is such a thing as armoured clothing, to be worn by politicians. It's good enough to stop a 9mm handgun at point blank range. and in the EVE world, we know dropsuits have shield emitters, maybe you can buy more discreet ones that operate under clothing.

So the scenario is: you attack the capsuleer. With their heightened cybernetic reflexes, they dodge the attack, or with their expensive armoured executive clothing and shield emitter belt they are spared the worst of it. An instant later their bodyguard have drawn scrambler pistols and you are now a microwave dinner. The capsuleer pays any fines and expenses to the station management and loses the miniscule cost in a cunning tax return the next time they sell a shipment of missile launchers. Your corpse is thrown in the biomass vats and used to fertilise the stations' hydroponics bay.


This is pure badass.

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#14 - 2013-07-25 17:23:01 UTC
I have a feeling that if and when we can walk around in areas where we could die there will be some sort of addition to the lore. A new technology or implant. Something that makes death outside the pod less than permanent.

For example, the "soft clone" method mentioned earlier saves your mind and skills at the moment you do the scan. Then an implant keeps the record of your mind up to date, but cannot handle skills. If you die you remember what happened, but lose all the skill points you had accumulated since your last scan. (The memory thing is sort of needed because we players will remember what happened. Asking us to role play forgetting the details of each and every non-pod death would be too much.)

Another way is we would walk around IN soft clones. A spare body that we can hot link to our true body that is left safely in the pod. This is actually the current lore extension used by many role players in the game right now. Like one guy said he used a soft clone to visit Caldari Prime and set up a monument there. Then the clone died nearby from radiation poisoning.

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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#15 - 2013-07-25 20:34:33 UTC
I know a bunch of clones that don't need a pod to transfer consciousness, it is only matter of time for that implant starts finding its way into capsuleers.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Kourdus
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-07-25 21:28:28 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
pilots have access to expensive cybernetics, expensive weapons, expensive armour and gear, and if it comes to that, can afford to pay for an elite bodyguard. The pilot themselves may or may not be a dangerous combatant, but the two ex-megacorporate "Personnel Affairs Agents" with DUST implants in their heads and augmented muscles who are following them at a discrete distance in nice and anonymous, but capacious suits?

Bear in mind, in real life there is such a thing as armoured clothing, to be worn by politicians. It's good enough to stop a 9mm handgun at point blank range. and in the EVE world, we know dropsuits have shield emitters, maybe you can buy more discreet ones that operate under clothing.

So the scenario is: you attack the capsuleer. With their heightened cybernetic reflexes, they dodge the attack, or with their expensive armoured executive clothing and shield emitter belt they are spared the worst of it. An instant later their bodyguard have drawn scrambler pistols and you are now a microwave dinner. The capsuleer pays any fines and expenses to the station management and loses the miniscule cost in a cunning tax return the next time they sell a shipment of missile launchers. Your corpse is thrown in the biomass vats and used to fertilise the stations' hydroponics bay.


well since you put it that way....
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-07-26 02:20:37 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
I know a bunch of clones that don't need a pod to transfer consciousness, it is only matter of time for that implant starts finding its way into capsuleers.

You're obviously referring to the Dusters, well, bad news for you, capsule interface implants are not compatible with dust implants, end of story. This has been stated multiple times in by CCP devs.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#18 - 2013-07-26 20:06:03 UTC
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
I know a bunch of clones that don't need a pod to transfer consciousness, it is only matter of time for that implant starts finding its way into capsuleers.

You're obviously referring to the Dusters, well, bad news for you, capsule interface implants are not compatible with dust implants, end of story. This has been stated multiple times in by CCP devs.


It was my understanding you could grow a clone with whatever implants in it you wanted, so maybe you can just be dumped into a duster when your pod gets breached. Just because the Duster implants arent compatible with the capsules doesn't necessarily mean the neural transfer net is incompatible.


On the other hand, this just reinforces my idea that you never actually leave your pod, and that the station environment is nothing but a computer simulation. I mean it's been YEARS since I've had an agent come into my quarters, since CCP forgot to fix my damn door. In every station, no less. So ronery...Sad
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#19 - 2013-07-26 20:09:44 UTC
Kourdus wrote:
So what makes Capsuleers so intimidating to the general populace, in person?

outside of our ships we are no different from anyone else with Combat Training (right?). You shoot us, we die.

I suppose if we are ever allowed to walk around in the stations, some new lore will have to be written...


Pretty sure thats why the door to my room is still welded shut.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#20 - 2013-07-26 20:27:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
I know a bunch of clones that don't need a pod to transfer consciousness, it is only matter of time for that implant starts finding its way into capsuleers.

You're obviously referring to the Dusters, well, bad news for you, capsule interface implants are not compatible with dust implants, end of story. This has been stated multiple times in by CCP devs.


It was my understanding you could grow a clone with whatever implants in it you wanted, so maybe you can just be dumped into a duster when your pod gets breached. Just because the Duster implants arent compatible with the capsules doesn't necessarily mean the neural transfer net is incompatible.


On the other hand, this just reinforces my idea that you never actually leave your pod, and that the station environment is nothing but a computer simulation. I mean it's been YEARS since I've had an agent come into my quarters, since CCP forgot to fix my damn door. In every station, no less. So ronery...Sad


Actually we have very similar implants for the dusters that help them jack into the LAVs, HAVs, and Dropships we operate. The largest thing we should be able to operate with the duster implants is the MCC (Mobile Command Center) the size of a small destroyer. Of course we also have additional means of jacking like though our hands for programming gunshots on the fly similar to how an eve pilot subconsciously programs their shells on their guns. Also Sleeper implants are required to operate Tech 3 ships, which is why concord has issued a software ban that allowed un jacking during combat to prevent permanent consciousness damage.

Clone soldiers however do have reasons to be locked in their rooms we're like 7-8ft tall freaks and stick out like sore thumbs.

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