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Where are the drone implants?
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Doddy
Excidium.
#21 - 2013-07-24 16:03:04 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Introducing drone implants will mean that the drone DPS has to be scaled down first. Are you sure you want this?

I rather keep the current drone DPS and use other implants instead.


Why? Other weapon dps was not scaled down when they added better implants .... In the end a 5% implant is only 1 level of one skill different, very small in the scheme of things.
Doddy
Excidium.
#22 - 2013-07-24 16:06:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Doddy
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Hexatron Ormand wrote:
So why should they need scaling down to get implants like any other weapon system already has?




Because all of the drone hulls were just balanced with their current damage and attributes in mind. Obviously they want those hulls doing the amount of DPS they currently do. Adding 6% Drone damage implants would break drone hulls unless they nerfed drone DPS.

All you would be getting is the expense of needing to buy implants to do the damage you already do without them. Oh and you also lose those implant slots for other stuff.


Hardly, as they have never nerfed things when adding implants for them before. In any case it is pre-nerfed as people would be dropping whatever was in that implant slot before. Drone ship rebalancing was not done against turretted ships with 6% implants anyway, ccp are not that stupid. If anything it would be more balanced as the ships are balanced with no implants, yet turret and missile ships can add up to 6% dps through implants.
Whitehound
#23 - 2013-07-24 16:08:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Doddy wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Introducing drone implants will mean that the drone DPS has to be scaled down first. Are you sure you want this?

I rather keep the current drone DPS and use other implants instead.


Why? Other weapon dps was not scaled down when they added better implants .... In the end a 5% implant is only 1 level of one skill different, very small in the scheme of things.

CCP did add 6% implants, true, but they did add drone damage mods, too.

And let us not forget that while drones are more vulnerable than weapons in high-slots does overheating only work for a limited time and players all too often burn their weapons out. High-slot weapons are only invulnerable in theory.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Doddy
Excidium.
#24 - 2013-07-24 17:13:37 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Introducing drone implants will mean that the drone DPS has to be scaled down first. Are you sure you want this?

I rather keep the current drone DPS and use other implants instead.


Why? Other weapon dps was not scaled down when they added better implants .... In the end a 5% implant is only 1 level of one skill different, very small in the scheme of things.

CCP did add 6% implants, true, but they did add drone damage mods, too.

And let us not forget that while drones are more vulnerable than weapons in high-slots does overheating only work for a limited time and players all too often burn their weapons out. High-slot weapons are only invulnerable in theory.


Not really, you can't burn out weapons without deliberately overheating them. Its roughly equivelant to people having to warp off and leave drones behind but is in no way equivelant to someone else killing your drones. Plus of course you can't overload drone dps either, so thats even more unbalanced. drone implants would at least redress some of it.
Whitehound
#25 - 2013-07-24 17:38:17 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Not really, you can't burn out weapons without deliberately overheating them. Its roughly equivelant to people having to warp off and leave drones behind but is in no way equivelant to someone else killing your drones. Plus of course you can't overload drone dps either, so thats even more unbalanced. drone implants would at least redress some of it.

Yes, really. Balance also has nothing to do with feature symmetries. If all you want is implants for drones and a mechanic to overheat drones then you have to take away some of their base DPS in return or you will create an imbalance.

Do watch the alliance tournaments to see how strong drone boats can be. The demand for implants and other new items to support drones without giving a little bit back is short of insane.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#26 - 2013-07-24 21:07:09 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Hexatron Ormand wrote:
So why should they need scaling down to get implants like any other weapon system already has?




Because all of the drone hulls were just balanced with their current damage and attributes in mind. Obviously they want those hulls doing the amount of DPS they currently do. Adding 6% Drone damage implants would break drone hulls unless they nerfed drone DPS.

All you would be getting is the expense of needing to buy implants to do the damage you already do without them. Oh and you also lose those implant slots for other stuff.


Hardly, as they have never nerfed things when adding implants for them before. In any case it is pre-nerfed as people would be dropping whatever was in that implant slot before. Drone ship rebalancing was not done against turretted ships with 6% implants anyway, ccp are not that stupid. If anything it would be more balanced as the ships are balanced with no implants, yet turret and missile ships can add up to 6% dps through implants.




When they added the other implants they hadn't just rebalanced all of those turret ships. They just balanced drone ships. Domis and the like do the amount of damage CCP wants them to do now. Adding implants would require a DPS nerf to drones or the drone hulls. Be careful what you ask for.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-07-24 23:14:10 UTC
Jake Warbird wrote:
I'm with Whitehound on this. Say no to nerfing drone dps.


it's not just, or all about the dps

how viable are heavy drones in pve since the npc ai revision a few patches ago ?

if your honest, you have to say not very
they are too slow
too vulnerable

if you use them at all, you need to keep them closer than 20km (standard maxed control range is 60km)
how many patches have forced missile or turret users to be incapable of using 66% of their weapon ranges ??


theres 1 skill, and 1 module that that enhance a few features of drone performance
some features have just 1 skill, and no module

other weapons have a skill, several modules and a choice of implants
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#28 - 2013-07-24 23:29:59 UTC
Using heavy drones in PvE was a waste of time before the AI change.
Doddy
Excidium.
#29 - 2013-07-24 23:32:23 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Not really, you can't burn out weapons without deliberately overheating them. Its roughly equivelant to people having to warp off and leave drones behind but is in no way equivelant to someone else killing your drones. Plus of course you can't overload drone dps either, so thats even more unbalanced. drone implants would at least redress some of it.

Yes, really. Balance also has nothing to do with feature symmetries. If all you want is implants for drones and a mechanic to overheat drones then you have to take away some of their base DPS in return or you will create an imbalance.

Do watch the alliance tournaments to see how strong drone boats can be. The demand for implants and other new items to support drones without giving a little bit back is short of insane.


What you say is only true if the turret ships and drone ships are balanced with the turret ships using implants in the first place, which would be dumb given hardly anyone is flying with 6% implants in.

Overheating drones would be dumb, i was just pointing out the imba.

If you think alliance tourney bears any relevance to normal eve combat you are very wrong. In real eve an enemy would simply move leaving the domis to either follow without their sentries or slow boat back to them in disgrace. Or they would be bombed by bombers that can you know warp off instead of die stuck in arena. Not that such combat ever actually happens with two fleets at opposing warp ins meaning the domis always start at range and the enemy can't reposition as they are not allowed to warp. And have to fly through the snetries to get to the domis. Alliance tourney is pure kidology.

Trust me i have flown in 300 man sentry domi blobs, they were good for killing death stars in lo sec, i will grant you that.
Doddy
Excidium.
#30 - 2013-07-24 23:35:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Doddy
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Hexatron Ormand wrote:
So why should they need scaling down to get implants like any other weapon system already has?




Because all of the drone hulls were just balanced with their current damage and attributes in mind. Obviously they want those hulls doing the amount of DPS they currently do. Adding 6% Drone damage implants would break drone hulls unless they nerfed drone DPS.

All you would be getting is the expense of needing to buy implants to do the damage you already do without them. Oh and you also lose those implant slots for other stuff.


Hardly, as they have never nerfed things when adding implants for them before. In any case it is pre-nerfed as people would be dropping whatever was in that implant slot before. Drone ship rebalancing was not done against turretted ships with 6% implants anyway, ccp are not that stupid. If anything it would be more balanced as the ships are balanced with no implants, yet turret and missile ships can add up to 6% dps through implants.




When they added the other implants they hadn't just rebalanced all of those turret ships. They just balanced drone ships. Domis and the like do the amount of damage CCP wants them to do now. Adding implants would require a DPS nerf to drones or the drone hulls. Be careful what you ask for.


Why? Would every drone pilot get free 6% implants and extra slots to put them in? If the ships are balanced in an implantless state then by default one ship is imbalanced if the pilot can put in damage implants. Or are you saying drone boats are already op as ccp balanced them with 6% implants in mind and turret ships are only their equal with such implants in? Be serious.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#31 - 2013-07-25 02:30:22 UTC
To assume they balanced ships off of implant-less clones in a game with implants is ridiculous. Probably didn't use 6% implants but I am sure implants and boosters were taken into account.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#32 - 2013-07-25 03:42:02 UTC
Andrew Indy wrote:
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Hexatron Ormand wrote:
So why should they need scaling down to get implants like any other weapon system already has?




Because all of the drone hulls were just balanced with their current damage and attributes in mind. Obviously they want those hulls doing the amount of DPS they currently do. Adding 6% Drone damage implants would break drone hulls unless they nerfed drone DPS.

All you would be getting is the expense of needing to buy implants to do the damage you already do without them. Oh and you also lose those implant slots for other stuff.


I can't comment on CPPs intentions but drones do at best about the same or less DPS than Guns (without Imps)

Orge IIs with a 50% bonus (IE Domi) and four DDAs do about 845 DPS
Garde II with a 50% bonus (IE Domi) and four DDAs do about 800 DPS

T2 Mega Pulse Lasers with a 25% Bonus (IE Abaddon) with four Heat Sinks do 1083 with Conflag and 774 with sc0orch
T2 Tachs with a 25% Bonus (IE Abaddon) with four Heat Sinks so 931 DPS with gleam, 917 with Imp Multi and 532 with Aurora

Add 2X 6% DPS Imps with the Guns and you get: (not to mention Faction upgrades that drones don't have either)
Megas 1194 and 853
Tachs 1026, 1011 and 586

The thing with drone boats is utility, sure you do less DPS with drone but you get a whole bunch of Highs for Nuets, Cynos , cloak ect ect.

Another thing is cruiser drone boats ( specially the GIla, Vexor and Ishtar) have the same DPS as the BS drone boats and have similar drone bays. They might get a bit OP with Imps.


Stop cherry picking stats. Look at ranges and tracking. What range do those Garde IIs get? How about tracking. I assure you that on a Domi your Gardes will get more range and tracking than an Abaddon using scorch. And FAR more tracking than a Tach Abaddon. Post full stats, and stop cherrypicking. I do however agree with you on the cruisers matching the BS's. The Ishtar's going to be a monster.
Whitehound
#33 - 2013-07-25 07:17:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Doddy wrote:
What you say is only true if the turret ships and drone ships are balanced with the turret ships using implants in the first place, which would be dumb given hardly anyone is flying with 6% implants in.

Overheating drones would be dumb, i was just pointing out the imba.

If you think alliance tourney bears any relevance to normal eve combat you are very wrong. In real eve an enemy would simply move leaving the domis to either follow without their sentries or slow boat back to them in disgrace. Or they would be bombed by bombers that can you know warp off instead of die stuck in arena. Not that such combat ever actually happens with two fleets at opposing warp ins meaning the domis always start at range and the enemy can't reposition as they are not allowed to warp. And have to fly through the snetries to get to the domis. Alliance tourney is pure kidology.

Trust me i have flown in 300 man sentry domi blobs, they were good for killing death stars in lo sec, i will grant you that.

Overheating drones is not impossible. One could allow to overheat the drone modules for instance.

Drones are also not an independent weapon system. Many ships have small drone bays and the drone boats themselves can fit guns. One can get an Armageddon and a Dominix to do 900-1000 DPS when fitted with guns and drones.

Drone boats like the Vexor, Proteus, Myrmidon and the Dominix are commonly flown in PvP. Not with sentries but with ogres. The alliance tournament only shows how dominant these ships can be.

And do not say the alliance tournament has no resemblance with PvP in EVE. The tournament itself is a part of EVE's PvP, but every gate camp is also not much different from it. If one runs or dies leaves no question about who the victor is.

I am pretty sure that after the tournaments every gate camp in EVE will include one or two Domis with sentries ...

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#34 - 2013-07-25 08:03:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrew Indy
Goldensaver wrote:


Stop cherry picking stats. Look at ranges and tracking. What range do those Garde IIs get? How about tracking. I assure you that on a Domi your Gardes will get more range and tracking than an Abaddon using scorch. And FAR more tracking than a Tach Abaddon. Post full stats, and stop cherrypicking. I do however agree with you on the cruisers matching the BS's. The Ishtar's going to be a monster.


I'm not sure if you can call that cherry picking. I used highest DPS large drones vs the highest DPS Lasers (I'm a laser user so i'm most familiar with them)

If I really wanted to cherry pick I would have used the lower DPS drone types IE Curator IIs (with the bonuses above they get 650 DPS)

I'll compare in more depth if you would like but I don't think that I can be bother to compare every single Drone Vs every single Gun, but please feel free to do that it you wish.

All of these figures Assume 4X T2 DPS Mods, and a standard weapon bonus (5% for Guns and 10% for Drones per lvl) all LVL5s and a full rack (8 Guns , 5 drones) .

DPS, Optimal , Fall off, Tracking (I'll exclude tracking/range/falloff from the mobile drones as it does not compare to the tracking of Guns)

Large Drones
Ogre II - 845
Praetor II - 607
Wasp - 766
Berserker II - 687

Curator II - 650, 63k, 24k, 0.0288
Warden II - 600, 90k , 30k, 0.0144
Garde II - 800, 36k, 12k, 0.0432
Bouncer II - 700, 72k, 42k, 0.0144

Large Lasers
Mega Pulse Scorch - 774 - 45K, 10K, 0.03222
Mega Pulse Conflag - 1083 , 15K, 10K, 0.02953
Mega Pulse Imp Multi - 971, 15K, 10K, 0.04219

Dual Heavy P Scorch - 669, 41K, 7.5K, 0.03516
Dual Heavy P Conflag - 936, 14K, 7.5K, 0.03281
Dual Heavy P Imp Multi - 839, 14K, 7.5K, 0.04688

Dual Heavy B Gleam - 718, 13k, 15k, 0.02734
Dual Heavy B Imp Multi - 708, 26K, 15K , 0.02187
Dual Heavy B Aurora - 410, 95K, 15K , 0.00547

Mega Beam Gleam - 862, 15K, 20K, 0.02393
Mega Beam Imp Multi - 849, 30K, 20K, 0.01914
Mega Beam Aurora - 492, 108k, 20k, 0.00479

Tachs Gleam - 931, 17k, 25k, 0.02175
Tachs Imp Multi - 917, 33k, 25k, 0.0174
Tachs Aurora - 532, 119, 25k, 0.00435

From the above you can see that in close Guns do more DPS and have better tracking (Mega Pulse out DPS every drone with short range ammo and trade blows with Ogres and Gardes with scorch) , out further the drones are some what better (Tachs Aurora do less DPS than Warden IIs and have worse tracking but better range. ) So sure they trade blows and i'm not saying that drones are worse by any means just that they are not so much better than guns to not warrant having Imps.

Now to the Domi, it gets a bonus to range and tracking so sure it hits further and has better tacking but few ships get its bonuses (almost all drone ships get the 10% DPS and EHP bonus and a huge amount of Gun boats get the 5% DPS bonus or 5% Rate of fire which is why I picked that use case) so I don't believe that it is enough to warrant not getting Drone IMPs.
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#35 - 2013-07-25 08:08:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrew Indy
Sorry hit quote instead of Edit.
Doddy
Excidium.
#36 - 2013-07-25 22:35:07 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
[quote=Doddy]

Drone boats like the Vexor, Proteus, Myrmidon and the Dominix are commonly flown in PvP. Not with sentries but with ogres. The alliance tournament only shows how dominant these ships can be.

And do not say the alliance tournament has no resemblance with PvP in EVE. The tournament itself is a part of EVE's PvP, but every gate camp is also not much different from it. If one runs or dies leaves no question about who the victor is.

I am pretty sure that after the tournaments every gate camp in EVE will include one or two Domis with sentries ...


Um no they wont :). And it never effected TQ before either. Because the limits make certain things more powerful through the lack of other things that would be there in real eve. So no, you wont see 12 man gangs using ASB "tinker" tanks rather just bringing non gimped dps ships supported by logis. You wont see tanking that is reliant on logistics drones. You wont see herons taken for ecm support over griffins.

The tourney teams are good, and they take advantage of the artificial limits to the limit. You can burn from gatecamp, warp from a gatecamp, cloak to avoid/reposition on a gate camp, you can warp in to attack a gate camp from any direction or range you want, you can bring more than one logi when doing so. A gate camp needs to be able to bail fast so dropping sentries and moving away like the tourney teams do just means losing drones constantly. Basically a gatecamp is the lsat place you are likley to see sentry domis.
Stjaerna Ramundson
#37 - 2013-08-22 20:39:26 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Mostly true, except drone boats still have high-slots, too.


You don't have that much high slots for weapons, cause you are forced to use Link Argumentors for controle range (also for the Sentry Guns what doesn't make any sense)
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  2. Beitrag enthält eine eigene Meinung im Fazit zum Thema.
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Stjaerna Ramundson
#38 - 2013-08-22 21:06:19 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134761

@ OP he is called I was told. This thread will be very interessting for you.



  1. Eigenen Beitrag mit sachliche Argumentationen, Problemschilderung, Erklärung, Lösungsansätzen formulieren.
  2. Beitrag enthält eine eigene Meinung im Fazit zum Thema.
  3. Negative Äußerungen, Drohungen usw. gegenüber Nutzern haben in der Meinung nichts zu suchen.
Vrenth
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-08-22 21:54:02 UTC
+1 for drone implants, especially sentry range and tracking to make up for nerfing the gloriously OP domi I've been loving. Twisted
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-08-23 00:46:58 UTC
I can't see a valid case for drone implants, other than drone durability or speed.

Drone DPS is not needed. They already do a very good job of gently peeling off a ships's armour.

And I'm a fully skilled gallente drone user.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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