Player Features and Ideas Discussion

A arazu can pin a target father than the target can lock using sensor damps. A rapier can stay well out of point range aligning away while applying webs to its target if it decides to chase the rapier. the falcon can outright break locks from 50+km. bombers can appy maximum damage well outside that 50km as well. there is an obvious trend with covert ships. weaker tank / speed / agilty for increased damage range (for bombers) increased ewar range for recons. and for the curse it gets a 40% bonus to range AND amount bonus. But by bringing a pilgrim sure you can fit a cloak but you have an unimpressive tank / speed / agility / effective range which is not a fair trade off for a 20% neut amount bonus.

if you can argue how the pilgrim can perfom its main purpose in a blops fleet (NEUTING) past 30km or even close to it without gimping fit and removing tracking disruptors. Then i would love to hear it.

You are bringing out the same tired argument. Just because a different race has a different T2 bonus doesn't mean we should homogenize all the races to give them the same type of bonuses. The Falcon's recon bonus isn't to range, but effectiveness like the Pilgrim. You can't make Arazus have a bonus to point effectiveness so range is the only other option. If the rapier had a web effectiveness bonus, which is a serpentis ship trait, it couldn't web beyond 10km. That would put it within scram/web range with no ability to neut off the scram/web. The falcon has an effectiveness bonus because ECM already has pretty good optimal and falloff.

When you step back and take a good look at all of the bonuses and how they work you should realize that CCP thought these things out. The Pilgrim is just fine. You seem to think it needs to give up a perfectly fine standard Amarr T2 bonus to take a weaker T1 bonus. It simply doesn't need to neut at 30km. It needs to have bonused neuts to quickly disable the target. Once it does that it has no worries because the other ship can't point it. You can argue the same disproven arguments all you want. The bonus is fine. If you are a competent pilot you will be gone well before the counter drop happens. If you are pointed just neut the point off. Unless you come up with a real reason why the pilgrim should be nerfed thing shouldn't change.

Sigh.

No you don't, blackbird didn't have a missile bonus before the rebalance.

I didn't argue anything about having the same bonuses in the same class, all i said in this respect is that ccp messed up when they gave 3 ewar ships a split weapon system damage bonus (worst bonus in eve) while giving the fourth an extra ewar bonus in the form of the very strong neut range bonus (only other ship that had it was bhaal, and i don't think even it had it back then). Who says "the t2 amarr ship bonus is neut effectiveness"? You?. It is the amarr frigate skill for the sentinel while the neut range is the one effected by the eaf skill. That is the only difference between the two bonuses other than the pilgrim having it or not. So the reason for the pilgrim not having it is that the pilgrim doesn't have it. What sort of argument is that? Just because they gave the geddon a neut bonus last month doesn't mean that is how the pilgrim was balanced years ago. Up until the dragoon (which like geddon has a far smaller bonus than curse in case you haven't noticed, but then i guess rook has same bonus as bb in your world?) both range and amount for neuts were purely t2/blood bonuses. Adding a t1 ship with a much weaker version of that bonus at an entirely different ship size does not suddenly make it a "t1 bonus".

As for cov ops i know what cov ops are. Doesn't alter the fact that if they were introduced now they would have a role bonus for cpu bonus, not a ship bonus, so idk what you are on there. If the second t2 bonus is "specialisation" then what you are saying is that the lachesis is a specialist missile boat? Seriously?

And this get out of jail crap is dumb. It doesn't have a get out of jail card if its pointed from any decent range even by a teeny weany friggie, nor if there are multiple enemies, nor if the enemy has a cap booster etc etc.

The truth is most blops fleets would ask a pilgrim pilot to fly a bomber instead, as its not very good. If it had longer range neuts it at least wouldn't be such aliability. If you are dropping on an enemy gang its terribad range means it is suicidal when you will be kiting the enemy out with bombers from long range. If you are dropping a juicy target you will kill the target before the pilgrim gets in range never mind drains the target. If its a carrier it could care less about your neuts in comparison to the extra 900 bomber dps. Even if it was really really important to you to have a cloaky short range neut ship you could just get a legion which is at least twice as good for less than twice the price, so its really useless all round.

Finally the big difference between the pilgrim and the other recons is where its second ewar bonus is located. The high slots. If you are using your pilgrim as a hunter you have cloak, cov cyno, exp probe launcher, 1 slot left for neuts. Most people will carry a standard cyno in that 4th slot in case capital escalation is needed cos who cares about one neut? If its a fleet scouting recon it will have cloak and cyno, so two slots for neuts, better but big deal. To actually have any neut power worth talking about the pilgrim must not be fitting even a cyno, so basically running scout for a purely conventional gang or solo. In either case fitting constraints mean that fitting 3 neuts is probably not worth the loss of tank most of the time in an armour fleet and if its a shield fleet you are giving up your tds instead. So really where is the role the pilgrim excels in? Solo against lone enemy targets who dont have cap boosters? But only if by excel you mean "can run away from".

The Pilgrim is fine as is. Its made to fight anything cap dependent and at that it excels. What it doesn't excel at is fighting something that doesn't depend on cap. Don't expect to kill a Hurricane or Drake in a Pilgrim. Also don't expect to kill a drone boat in a Pilgrim.


You are forgetting that neuts are NOT EWAR. Capacitor neutralizers are almost akin to a weapon system so if you want more range use a Curse.

Except that the Pilgrim can perform one of two roles. You either get a surpise "neuts you out and slowly tears your Talos apart" boat or you get a long range Tracking Disruption platform. Thats what the Pilgrim is meant to do. Frankly, it doesn't need any more neut range. If you feel the need for a long range neut then I'm sorry but you are using the Pilgrim wrong. And before you say tracking disruption isn't effective and bla bla bla, try using a blaster boat against a single bonused TD and hitting anything. Sure you can say it doesn't have an awesome bonus like webs or scram/disruptor but if you think Caldari, the Falcon is also exclusively an EWAR boat. The difference is ECM prevents you from locking while TD prevents your turrets from hitting.

All Recons suck at something: the Pilgrim sucks at large gang support. It more than makes up for that by being one of the most effective (if not the most effective) at small gang and solo combat. The Rapier for instance has one entirely useless EWAR bonus (target painting and nothing are almost the same thing) combined with pretty laughable tank and dps. The Arazu has godawful DPS and if you catch it its dead. Same goes for the Falcon which sucks at everything but jamming and playing bait. So you can take your pick but the Pilgrim is fine as is, especially compared to other Recons.

Given that most of this coversation has been mostly about blops drops with bombers dismissing the rapiers tp bonus like that just makes you look silly. 1 Rapier TP and all those Rage torps are hitting any bs (whatever gang bonuses) and most bcs for max and allows you to actually hurt things like tier 3s. It is afar more powerful bonus in a black ops gang than ecm, damps or neuts (even if the neuts had the range bonus in fact). Its effect stacks the bigger your gang too. Only the point and web (also on rapier lols) are more powerful.

I get what you say about the recons all being different and the pilgrim being a better small gang/solo ship, but why should it be so useless in larger combat? With the range bonus instead of amount (personally i would have both but hey) the pilgrim is still effective in solo/very small gang (it takes a couple more cycles to neut a target dry?) while actually becoming useful in medium combat. That also by having more range even in solo/small gang situations can allow for extra cycles that might shut off that mwd as the target pulls range when the roid decloaks you at 20k instead of 10k or whatever?

Finally why does the pilgrim get to do "one of two roles" dependant on range when rapier and arazu can both do two roles (tackle and damping/painting) at the same time from the same range? Seems unfair again.

the pilgrim does not get a bonus to tracking disruption optimal range.
im not saying it doesnt have X awesome bonus. Im saying it is not the the med range option like every other recon. that allows them to function in groups without logistics, heavy tanks, high dps.
so to those saying want range? get a curse. well my response would be want want high amount % get a curse / legion / bhaal. changing the bonuses around a bit doesnt kill the ship or make any of the rest less viable choices. it just fills a specific role. (which was my understanding of T2 ships)

The problem with neutralizers is that they can potentially shut down everything on a ship. If you have a ship that can cloak, has a significant drone damage bonus, significant neutralizer range bonus and a tracking disruption bonus you essentially get something that can and will kill pretty much anything solo. For the Pilgrim to get a neut range bonus it would have to give up its damage bonus and neut amount bonuses. There always has to be a trade off. Its not like its a garbage ship thats entirely unusable, far from it in fact. Right now its excellent as a surprise ganker. So long as you pick your targets (which you always should do if you want to win everytime - disclaimer: not saying I do) you will kill 80-90% of the time.

Thus, thats why I will return to saying that if you want a long range neut support boat you are to use a Curse. In theory, a regular meta 4 neut has a potential range of 37.8 km which you can expand up to 44.1 km with faction neuts. That is entirely compatible with the bonuses the Lachesis and Hugginn get (22.8km scrambler and 56km web respectively). The difference is Lachs and Huggs get bonuses applied to their ranges while the Curse does not.

katie actually read my posts please before replying. i have said it many times now. i would rather decrease drone damage or remove it completely. and same with neuting amount to fill that med-long range role that every other recon fills with ease.

Sorry Doddy but you are confusing the roles of Force Recons and Combat Recons.

And heres how a 40km neut range would be OP.

Scenario: You find a Talos looking for a fight with a common nano fit (8 Neutrons, 2 LSE, disruptor, mwd, dam con, nano, te 2 magstab - shield rigs)

You decloak around 20km with tds on (optimal range), put neuts on overloaded and watch the Talos derp for a sec or two as he notices your prescence. If he chooses to engage he will probably burn away which will finish nuking his cap. At this point you will probably be at around 25-30km range from him. He will then notice he has no cap and thus may attempt to run. At this point its too late because you have already closed range with mwd and can now safely stay at a 20km orbit as you tear him apart.

You could probably do the same to a Hurricane if you play it right.

So essentially 40km neuts on a Pilgrim are unnecessary and completely obsolete the role of the Curse.