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Aggression/Suspect/Timer Flags Question - Somethings not quite right!
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JinSanJong
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-07-24 21:45:17 UTC  |  Edited by: JinSanJong
I am a little confused about this suspect/crim/agression flags.

I do not understand why the hell somebody who gets attacked receives timer flags. For instance someone agresses me today, i did not attack or anything back yet i get a log off timer flag.

If NPCs attack you then you get some kind of flag etc etc

Why o Why do innocent people who do nothing still get flags? Thats surely wrong.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#2 - 2013-07-24 21:48:10 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:

I do not understand why the hell somebody who gets attacked receives timer flags.


Because of Logoffski.




☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#3 - 2013-07-24 21:56:12 UTC
Doc Fury was able to sum it up in a single sentence... I'll use a little more.

There are different flags. Suspect or Criminal flags are because you have broken CONCORD law under various circumstances. A Limited Engagement is a legal, on its own at least, engagement with a single other player.
These flags are concerning themselves with interactions - namely, how much will people be allowed to do to you, and with what consequence.
Aggression flags are different. A weapon timer has nothing to do with the legality of your action, but rather your ability to escape from the scene. You can't dock up or use stargates with weapon timers.
The 5- and 10- minute aggression flags are simply so your ship doesn't disappear in space for that duration. It affects nothing else. Again, they have nothing to do with the legality of your actions.

As you can see, "flags" are a catch-all term, and the flags that are in opposition to innocence are not the flags you get when you're innocent.
No worries.
Smile
JinSanJong
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-07-24 21:56:33 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
JinSanJong wrote:

I do not understand why the hell somebody who gets attacked receives timer flags.


Because of Logoffski.






That would be fine if the person aggressed back, i would totally agree with it. But for not then innocent people doing nothing get flagged, that's insane.

Scenario

Dude : Im gonna punch you in the face.
Dude 2 : Err OK
Dude 1 : Kapoww - there you go.
Police : Sorry dude 2 im going to lock you up for the night
Dude 2 : Err what? why?
Police : cos you let someone punch you.
dude 2 : Errrr.. that dont make sense, i didnt do anything
JinSanJong
Doomheim
#5 - 2013-07-24 21:59:01 UTC  |  Edited by: JinSanJong
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Doc Fury was able to sum it up in a single sentence... I'll use a little more.

There are different flags. Suspect or Criminal flags are because you have broken CONCORD law under various circumstances. A Limited Engagement is a legal, on its own at least, engagement with a single other player.
These flags are concerning themselves with interactions - namely, how much will people be allowed to do to you, and with what consequence.
Aggression flags are different. A weapon timer has nothing to do with the legality of your action, but rather your ability to escape from the scene. You can't dock up or use stargates with weapon timers.
The 5- and 10- minute aggression flags are simply so your ship doesn't disappear in space for that duration. It affects nothing else. Again, they have nothing to do with the legality of your actions.

As you can see, "flags" are a catch-all term, and the flags that are in opposition to innocence are not the flags you get when you're innocent.
No worries.
Smile


That simply didnt answer my question - i know all that. Flags should be for 'the aggressor' not someone doing nothing!

Why should someone who does nothing get flagged? I just dont get that...You know like a NPC will attack YOU and you get flagged. Eh WTF
Spurty
#6 - 2013-07-24 22:05:21 UTC
Closes the loop that makes ships invulnerable as they disappear after a far too short amount of time to actually kill

For all We know, you were just about to fire back, but suddenly spot it's not going to work and are looking to use a game mechanic to escape a whelping.

You undocked, you're marked for death

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Shahai Shintaro
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-07-24 22:08:53 UTC
It's so you can't instantly log off. Look at this example. I'm in a ship that can kill yours and I engage you. If the flags didn't exist, you could quit the game and magically disappear even though I'm in the middle of fighting you. The flags are solely there to prevent that.
JinSanJong
Doomheim
#8 - 2013-07-24 22:11:31 UTC
Spurty wrote:
Closes the loop that makes ships invulnerable as they disappear after a far too short amount of time to actually kill

For all We know, you were just about to fire back, but suddenly spot it's not going to work and are looking to use a game mechanic to escape a whelping.

You undocked, you're marked for death


Eh? thats still ridiculous lol. IM sorry mate but thats total BS. You cant be flagged for just being in space lol. Im all for the flags etc if you do something wrong, but for doing nothing, im sorry but you cant simply agree thats right somehow.

If someone came and shot your mom in the face when she was outside, would you say, sorry you shouldnt of stepped outside.
Elizabeth Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-07-24 22:13:22 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
Spurty wrote:
Closes the loop that makes ships invulnerable as they disappear after a far too short amount of time to actually kill

For all We know, you were just about to fire back, but suddenly spot it's not going to work and are looking to use a game mechanic to escape a whelping.

You undocked, you're marked for death


Eh? thats still ridiculous lol. IM sorry mate but thats total BS. You cant be flagged for just being in space lol. Im all for the flags etc if you do something wrong, but for doing nothing, im sorry but you cant simply agree thats right somehow.

If someone came and shot your mom in the face when she was outside, would you say, sorry you shouldnt of stepped outside.


If she was playing a game centered around shooting people, yes.
JinSanJong
Doomheim
#10 - 2013-07-24 22:13:59 UTC
Shahai Shintaro wrote:
It's so you can't instantly log off. Look at this example. I'm in a ship that can kill yours and I engage you. If the flags didn't exist, you could quit the game and magically disappear even though I'm in the middle of fighting you. The flags are solely there to prevent that.


But WHY SHOULDNT YOU! You havent done anything wrong! Cant anyone see my point? If you fought back then fine!

Again if you met someone on the street and they pulled a knife on you, you would run away, oh sorry you cant! So youll get stabbed to death! Eh!
JinSanJong
Doomheim
#11 - 2013-07-24 22:15:45 UTC
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
JinSanJong wrote:
Spurty wrote:
Closes the loop that makes ships invulnerable as they disappear after a far too short amount of time to actually kill

For all We know, you were just about to fire back, but suddenly spot it's not going to work and are looking to use a game mechanic to escape a whelping.

You undocked, you're marked for death


Eh? thats still ridiculous lol. IM sorry mate but thats total BS. You cant be flagged for just being in space lol. Im all for the flags etc if you do something wrong, but for doing nothing, im sorry but you cant simply agree thats right somehow.

If someone came and shot your mom in the face when she was outside, would you say, sorry you shouldnt of stepped outside.


If she was playing a game centered around shooting people, yes.


Ah but eve isnt just about shooting people is it?
JinSanJong
Doomheim
#12 - 2013-07-24 22:17:16 UTC  |  Edited by: JinSanJong
Sorry guys i just think its crazy innocent ppl get flagged for just being there and doing nothing wrong.

if you havent fought back, then you shouldnt get flagged for anything
Shahai Shintaro
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-07-24 22:17:35 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
Spurty wrote:
Closes the loop that makes ships invulnerable as they disappear after a far too short amount of time to actually kill

For all We know, you were just about to fire back, but suddenly spot it's not going to work and are looking to use a game mechanic to escape a whelping.

You undocked, you're marked for death


Eh? thats still ridiculous lol. IM sorry mate but thats total BS. You cant be flagged for just being in space lol. Im all for the flags etc if you do something wrong, but for doing nothing, im sorry but you cant simply agree thats right somehow.

If someone came and shot your mom in the face when she was outside, would you say, sorry you shouldnt of stepped outside.

Using the real world is a horrible metaphor. The closest metaphor would be a guy starts choking you and you some how leave reality and disappear.

This can't happen in the real world and that it's what the flag is preventing you from doing in the game world. The flags you are complaining about do not restrict you from doing anything else.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#14 - 2013-07-24 22:18:17 UTC
Because if we didn't have those flags, the person could aggress you, and when it looked like you were going to win, they hightailed it out of there and went to the next system over where he had no aggression and logged off. Then you couldn't retaliate and would run to the forums crying because someone pulled a logoffski on you.

That is why both parties get aggression now.



When the change first happened, we had quite a few laughs when someone would warp to a gate at 100 thinking that they would run and log off if things got hairy. We would have a few people who could target and hit out that far, so theyd quickly lock and tag him with a nothing hit, and we would watch them run to a safe and log. As soon as we saw them log, we would probe them out and everyone would whore on the kill. So many nice kills because of that change. So many nice podmails. So many tears.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-07-24 22:18:59 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
Shahai Shintaro wrote:
It's so you can't instantly log off. Look at this example. I'm in a ship that can kill yours and I engage you. If the flags didn't exist, you could quit the game and magically disappear even though I'm in the middle of fighting you. The flags are solely there to prevent that.


But WHY SHOULDNT YOU! You havent done anything wrong! Cant anyone see my point? If you fought back then fine!

Again if you met someone on the street and they pulled a knife on you, you would run away, oh sorry you cant! So youll get stabbed to death! Eh!


You need to come to terms with the fact that the game is designed so that EVERYBODY is vulnerable to some degree. Being innocent doesn't give you a get-out-of-dying-free-card, nor should it. It doesn't in real life either.

Yes, innocent people can be attacked and killed, if they do nothing to prevent it. That might suck for them, but it is an integral part of the game.

What you want is some kind of automatic justice... that is not how Eve works (nor how real life works, either). Sometimes, bad people just win and get away scot free.
JinSanJong
Doomheim
#16 - 2013-07-24 22:21:29 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Because if we didn't have those flags, the person could aggress you, and when it looked like you were going to win, they hightailed it out of there and went to the next system over where he had no aggression and logged off. Then you couldn't retaliate and would run to the forums crying because someone pulled a logoffski on you.

That is why both parties get aggression now.



When the change first happened, we had quite a few laughs when someone would warp to a gate at 100 thinking that they would run and log off if things got hairy. We would have a few people who could target and hit out that far, so theyd quickly lock and tag him with a nothing hit, and we would watch them run to a safe and log. As soon as we saw them log, we would probe them out and everyone would ***** on the kill. So many nice kills because of that change. So many nice podmails. So many tears.



Quote:
and when it looked like you were going to win


Seriously are you guys NOT LISTENING!!!! NO ONE HAS FOUGHT BACK! This isnt something about fighting back. Im talking about someone doing absolutley nothing, not targeting, not shooting back, nothing. If someone targets you, and/or fires on you, without you doing anything back then you still get flagged! thats wrong..

i agree if you fight back you should get flagged but this is when you dont
JinSanJong
Doomheim
#17 - 2013-07-24 22:23:29 UTC
Karsa Egivand wrote:
JinSanJong wrote:
Shahai Shintaro wrote:
It's so you can't instantly log off. Look at this example. I'm in a ship that can kill yours and I engage you. If the flags didn't exist, you could quit the game and magically disappear even though I'm in the middle of fighting you. The flags are solely there to prevent that.


But WHY SHOULDNT YOU! You havent done anything wrong! Cant anyone see my point? If you fought back then fine!

Again if you met someone on the street and they pulled a knife on you, you would run away, oh sorry you cant! So youll get stabbed to death! Eh!


You need to come to terms with the fact that the game is designed so that EVERYBODY is vulnerable to some degree. Being innocent doesn't give you a get-out-of-dying-free-card, nor should it. It doesn't in real life either.

Yes, innocent people can be attacked and killed, if they do nothing to prevent it. That might suck for them, but it is an integral part of the game.

What you want is some kind of automatic justice... that is not how Eve works (nor how real life works, either). Sometimes, bad people just win and get away scot free.


Yeah but people can either defend themselves, or run away, the innocent person does not get penalised!
The police dont come to you and say oi someone attacked you but we shall arrest you. dont make sense at all
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2013-07-24 22:24:02 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
Seriously are you guys NOT LISTENING!!!! NO ONE HAS FOUGHT BACK! This isnt something about fighting back. Im talking about someone doing absolutley nothing, not targeting, not shooting back, nothing. If someone targets you, and/or fires on you, without you doing anything back then you still get flagged! thats wrong..

i agree if you fight back you should get flagged but this is when you dont


I am going to try it again. The Eve Universe is supposed to be close to reality ("sandbox"). The timer prevents you from logging off, so that you can't just suspend this reality. Just as you can't leave real life for some kind of alternate reality while being robbed.

Yes, that means an innocent might be unjustly killed. That is how life and Eve can be, cruel & cold. This is BY DESIGN.
Akemi Kiyoura
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-07-24 22:26:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Akemi Kiyoura
JinSanJong wrote:
Spurty wrote:
Closes the loop that makes ships invulnerable as they disappear after a far too short amount of time to actually kill

For all We know, you were just about to fire back, but suddenly spot it's not going to work and are looking to use a game mechanic to escape a whelping.

You undocked, you're marked for death


Eh? thats still ridiculous lol. IM sorry mate but thats total BS. You cant be flagged for just being in space lol. Im all for the flags etc if you do something wrong, but for doing nothing, im sorry but you cant simply agree thats right somehow.

If someone came and shot your mom in the face when she was outside, would you say, sorry you shouldnt of stepped outside.

You need to stop linking flags with "doing something wrong". Once you do that, the whole concept falls into place. You also need to stop with the bad scenarios, they fail to portray the actual situation.

Agression timers, and NPC logoff timers are there to prevent anyone marked by them from logging off when the situation turns dire.
Best example is: Titan jumps instead of bridging, kicks on hardeners and the like, and logs off. 10 minutes later, his ship, which was pointed, being shot at, and unable to leave the grid by normal means, suddenly dissapears into the depths of space, unable to be scanned down.

As it has been mentioned before, if you don't want flags, don't undock. NPCs will trigger them, gankers will trigger them, regardless of you locking back, agressing, or ignoring.

If you are afraid that one day, some random guy will try to kill your valuable 10m ship (lel) after jumping a gate, and due a timer you wont be able to jump back, you'd be incorrect. Unless, you engage him. Then sure, you won't be able to jump back.
Working as intended.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#20 - 2013-07-24 22:29:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
When someone attacks you in EVE, both parties are then subject to specific rules of engagement which you consent to when you undock. You can choose to retaliate or flee, but for a short time you must evade if you choose to flee, and cannot simply drop connection.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
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