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How do you guys make so much ISK with station trading?
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Dandrenn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-07-24 14:12:27 UTC
I've found about 15-20 items that i put into my quickbar and have about a billion isk (including the 140 mill selling and 150 buying on the market).

I don't have any ships or BPO's that i'm station trading (perhaps that's the issue?), it's mostly ammo, lasers, that sort of think.

I hear some people on here making 100m a day doing station trading. I'm lucky if i make 10m. Does this involve playing the game all day long or something? I guess i'm asking for advice on how to approach station trading "correctly" besides "buy low sell high" which is obvious. I'm in Jita.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#2 - 2013-07-24 14:23:17 UTC
well, having more market orders will help. if i feel like going OCD for a day, i clear up at least 100 orders for two dozen or so items, get a huge cup of coffee and then spend a few hours cycling through the orders like a monkey. that said, there are other, bigger opportunities to cash out other than just daytrading.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#3 - 2013-07-24 14:26:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhivre
First, if you have 140m in sell orders and 150m in buys (so 290 total), then 10m/day is a bit low, but not terrible.

10% a day should be easily doable, so around 30m/day.

The people you see getting 100m/day are not investing 300m :)

I usually run 10-20 orders when station trading, if I use all 273 it drives me crazy after a few hours :p

My method for finding items is:

1) Does the item have 10% margin?
2) Does the item shift more than 500/day? (Ideally 1k/day)
3) Does the item go equally to buy and sell?

If it doesnt have 10% between buy and sell, I may still trade it, but it is more susceptible to fluctuations.

the 500/day is purely for T2 modules, things like T2/Faction ships are slower movers, but have often bigger margins (Same for faction modules).

If it looks like it is profitable, and moves enough volume, then I check the history table to see if it goes equally to buys and sells, as there is no point having a 50% margin if no one ever fills a buy order.

I also check the number of competitors. Sometimes I dont care how many there are, but for laid back trading, fewer is better.

If these criteria are fulfilled, then I will stick a test buy order up for a small amount, to see how long it takes to fill. As soon as I get 1 module, I flip it to see how long it takes to sell.

Also, while waiting for stuff to fill, I look through the market for either:

Overfilled buy orders (those bunches of items 0.01 above the buy order price) to grab without having to pay broker fees \o/
or
Items which have had a rapid shift in price (An unexpectedly large margin, like when, say all the caracals got bought out).

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Dandrenn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-07-24 14:30:13 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
well, having more market orders will help. if i feel like going OCD for a day, i clear up at least 100 orders for two dozen or so items, get a huge cup of coffee and then spend a few hours cycling through the orders like a monkey. that said, there are other, bigger opportunities to cash out other than just daytrading.



Yeah i'd love to try my hand at research or industrial stuff but have no idea where to begin or what i should start out with. I kinda started station trading because i was in the stock business in real life for a year or two and learned some stuff there so it made sense i suppose.
Dandrenn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-07-24 14:31:39 UTC
Rhivre wrote:
First, if you have 140m in sell orders and 150m in buys (so 290 total), then 10m/day is a bit low, but not terrible.

10% a day should be easily doable, so around 30m/day.

The people you see getting 100m/day are not investing 300m :)

I usually run 10-20 orders when station trading, if I use all 273 it drives me crazy after a few hours :p

My method for finding items is:

1) Does the item have 10% margin?
2) Does the item shift more than 500/day? (Ideally 1k/day)
3) Does the item go equally to buy and sell?

If it doesnt have 10% between buy and sell, I may still trade it, but it is more susceptible to fluctuations.

the 500/day is purely for T2 modules, things like T2/Faction ships are slower movers, but have often bigger margins (Same for faction modules).

If it looks like it is profitable, and moves enough volume, then I check the history table to see if it goes equally to buys and sells, as there is no point having a 50% margin if no one ever fills a buy order.

I also check the number of competitors. Sometimes I dont care how many there are, but for laid back trading, fewer is better.

If these criteria are fulfilled, then I will stick a test buy order up for a small amount, to see how long it takes to fill. As soon as I get 1 module, I flip it to see how long it takes to sell.

Also, while waiting for stuff to fill, I look through the market for either:

Overfilled buy orders (those bunches of items 0.01 above the buy order price) to grab without having to pay broker fees \o/
or
Items which have had a rapid shift in price (An unexpectedly large margin, like when, say all the caracals got bought out).


Thanks for explaining the stuff in this post. I do have a question when you say "does the item go equally to buy and sell". What does that mean?
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#6 - 2013-07-24 14:35:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhivre
When you look at the price history table, it shows a Low, High and Average price

The low (especially in the forge) is the buy price usually, the High is the sell price, and the average, is, well, the average.

If the average price is close to the low price, the item primarily goes to buy orders, and if it is closer to the high price, then it primarily goes to sell orders.
If the price is pretty close to halfway between the low and high price, then it means it goes fairly equally to buys and sells.

Example (Made up item)

Low: 100 High. 200 Average: 110 <------ This item goes mostly to buy orders

Low 100 High 200 Average 190 <------------- Primarily to sells

Low 100 High 200 Average 150 <------------- Goes to both buys and sells about equally.


(Always cross check the high and low price against the current market price as well, and take a glance down the Avg price for the last month, to see which direction the price is going)

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Dandrenn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-07-24 14:37:09 UTC
Rhivre wrote:
When you look at the price history table, it shows a Low, High and Average price

The low (especially in the forge) is the buy price usually, the High is the sell price, and the average, is, well, the average.

If the average price is close to the low price, the item primarily goes to buy orders, and if it is closer to the high price, then it primarily goes to sell orders.
If the price is pretty close to halfway between the low and high price, then it means it goes fairly equally to buys and sells.

Example (Made up item)

Low: 100 High. 200 Average: 110 <------ This item goes mostly to buy orders

Low 100 High 200 Average 190 <------------- Primarily to sells

Low 100 High 200 Average 150 <------------- Goes to both buys and sells about equally.


(Always cross check the high and low price against the current market price as well, and take a glance down the Avg price for the last month, to see which direction the price is going)



interesting, i never looked at that part of it. I essentially just looked if it sold a decent amount (1k?) per day in terms of volume and if the buy orders were much less (30-40% at least) of the sell orders. I'll look at that though.
Grozen
Mateber Mining and Manufacturing Company
C U L T
#8 - 2013-07-24 17:30:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Grozen
Its pretty simple actually.The more isk you have the more you can make for example I can make that 10m profit you make in hour bying and selling 1item because the cash i inject into trading it is equal to your wallet.Now imagine someone with 200billion.They can spread themselves among several regions with several thousand orders most of the time barely loging few times a day to update orders.That's how its done.

knowledge is power.
Eliram Kahoudi
Big Fluffy Bunnies
#9 - 2013-07-24 21:22:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Eliram Kahoudi
grozen is right, i went from investing 10b or so to 20b from a character sale and my income almost doubled with that invenstment. its pretty straight forward after you get going with it.

more orders is the key for you though. 15 orders isnt alot try to bump it to 100 with your capital and see how you do.

i normally have around 200 up at any given time.
coldplasma
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-07-24 22:13:46 UTC
I would tell you, but that would make you a direct competitor to meAttention
coldplasma
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-07-24 22:16:10 UTC
Rhivre wrote:
First, if you have 140m in sell orders and 150m in buys (so 290 total), then 10m/day is a bit low, but not terrible.

10% a day should be easily doable, so around 30m/day.

The people you see getting 100m/day are not investing 300m :)

I usually run 10-20 orders when station trading, if I use all 273 it drives me crazy after a few hours :p

My method for finding items is:

1) Does the item have 10% margin?
2) Does the item shift more than 500/day? (Ideally 1k/day)
3) Does the item go equally to buy and sell?

If it doesnt have 10% between buy and sell, I may still trade it, but it is more susceptible to fluctuations.

the 500/day is purely for T2 modules, things like T2/Faction ships are slower movers, but have often bigger margins (Same for faction modules).

If it looks like it is profitable, and moves enough volume, then I check the history table to see if it goes equally to buys and sells, as there is no point having a 50% margin if no one ever fills a buy order.

I also check the number of competitors. Sometimes I dont care how many there are, but for laid back trading, fewer is better.

If these criteria are fulfilled, then I will stick a test buy order up for a small amount, to see how long it takes to fill. As soon as I get 1 module, I flip it to see how long it takes to sell.

Also, while waiting for stuff to fill, I look through the market for either:

Overfilled buy orders (those bunches of items 0.01 above the buy order price) to grab without having to pay broker fees \o/
or
Items which have had a rapid shift in price (An unexpectedly large margin, like when, say all the caracals got bought out).

it's not this serious though OP, so don't worry
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#12 - 2013-07-25 00:22:52 UTC
Heh, thats not serious :p it takes about 5 minutes to do ^^

Its less serious than setting up 200 orders for region trading :p

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Felicity Love
Doomheim
#13 - 2013-07-25 02:34:09 UTC
Reading Dev Blogs and figuring out what the next changes / expansions to the game will include is almost always a good way to make some ISK on the markets -- and requires some amount of patience from the investor.

If you like flipping ISK everyday, then that's a different "play" and you should seriously consider getting very intimate with a few dozen commodities and thus figuring out when and how to flip from one commodity to the next as prices fluctuate.

Alcohol helps. YMMV.

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Samroski
Middle-Earth
#14 - 2013-07-25 04:40:31 UTC
Felicity Love wrote:

Alcohol helps. YMMV.

Being wasted works both ways.

When I was managing >3000 market orders, making 100m/day was very easy. Hell, making 10 times as much was pretty "easy".

Now I manage 300-600 orders, updated occasionally (sometimes not for months), and with revenue that averages less than 100m/day, with about 20-60b worth of sell orders.

Any colour you like.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#15 - 2013-07-25 07:22:35 UTC
Samroski wrote:
Felicity Love wrote:

Alcohol helps.YMMV.

Being wasted works both ways.

When I was managing >3000 market orders, making 100m/day was very easy. Hell, making 10 times as much was pretty "easy".

Now I manage 300-600 orders, updated occasionally (sometimes not for months), and with revenue that averages less than 100m/day, with about 20-60b worth of sell orders.


I doubt that low an amount is possible on 20b isk of orders. Or do you mean profit instead of revenue?

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Samroski
Middle-Earth
#16 - 2013-07-25 13:15:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Samroski
Zappity wrote:
Samroski wrote:
Felicity Love wrote:

Alcohol helps.YMMV.

Being wasted works both ways.

When I was managing >3000 market orders, making 100m/day was very easy. Hell, making 10 times as much was pretty "easy".

Now I manage 300-600 orders, updated occasionally (sometimes not for months), and with revenue that averages less than 100m/day, with about 20-60b worth of sell orders.


I doubt that low an amount is possible on 20b isk of orders. Or do you mean profit instead of revenue?

I mean revenue. I'm just being honest here. I've made more than a bil a day revenue in the past, but now I am not motivated to work for my money. Thus I just dump lots of stuff on the market (not Jita, or any of the other major hubs) and leave it be for at least one month, usually 3. The revenue is much more than 100m a day at the start, but after a couple of weeks it trickles down to a small stream. The average is less than 100m/day.

Once or twice a year I get motivated and do some active trading, when the revenue does go up a bit.

And yes, I have also dabbled in patch speculation over the last two or three years, with variable success. Am wary of this.

I also buy stuff at Jita when it hits rock bottom, and hang on to it for months or years, till it doubles or till I get sick of looking at it.

There. That is my trade strategy, except a list of the hubs I trade in, and one minor, but relatively useful trade "secret" :)

Any colour you like.
North Vladimir
Doomheim
#17 - 2013-07-26 05:28:44 UTC
If you wanna be a station trader, standing is important
the lowest broker fee would be 0.18% , 0.75% none standing
Think about, how much tax you paied
flakeys
Doomheim
#18 - 2013-07-26 05:36:24 UTC
North Vladimir wrote:
If you wanna be a station trader, standing is important
the lowest broker fee would be 0.18% , 0.75% none standing
Think about, how much tax you paied



I have only had one character that ever had/has any decent standing for the station he was trading in so i say not needed.

It can be helpfull offcourse but not something you need to focus on.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#19 - 2013-07-26 07:18:08 UTC
flakeys wrote:
North Vladimir wrote:
If you wanna be a station trader, standing is important
the lowest broker fee would be 0.18% , 0.75% none standing
Think about, how much tax you paied
I have only had one character that ever had/has any decent standing for the station he was trading in so i say not needed.

It can be helpfull offcourse but not something you need to focus on.

It depends on what and how you trade.

If you trade a large volume of low margin items then cutting out fees will make a big difference.

If you trade high margin items then not so much.

There are styles of trading that are only viable with minimal fees, just like there are styles of trading that are only viable if you are prepared to camp your orders and 0.01 constantly. You do not have to adopt those styles of trading if you do not want to.
flakeys
Doomheim
#20 - 2013-07-26 07:32:25 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
flakeys wrote:
North Vladimir wrote:
If you wanna be a station trader, standing is important
the lowest broker fee would be 0.18% , 0.75% none standing
Think about, how much tax you paied
I have only had one character that ever had/has any decent standing for the station he was trading in so i say not needed.

It can be helpfull offcourse but not something you need to focus on.

It depends on what and how you trade.

If you trade a large volume of low margin items then cutting out fees will make a big difference.

If you trade high margin items then not so much.

There are styles of trading that are only viable with minimal fees, just like there are styles of trading that are only viable if you are prepared to camp your orders and 0.01 constantly. You do not have to adopt those styles of trading if you do not want to.


That i agree with BB and as said usefull it is , however if i had to choose what helped me the best at the start of my trade career then standing would be way down on the list.Skills however is something wich is VERRY important.

I'd recommend to players who start trying trade to focus on skills and knowing the market and when they feel they are gonna stick their teeth in after a few months then have a look at standing options available.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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